Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum
Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet with the UCE engine => Topic started by: Bmadd34 on July 15, 2019, 07:54:04 pm
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I have done scoured the forum's search feature and googled to my heart's content, but cannot find a viable avenue for parts. Are there solid lifters and adjustable pushrods available for the UCE engine?
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Talk to gashousegorilla, he converts the hydraulic lifter to solid by fitting a aluminium plug into the stock lifter body. He also has access to adjustable push rods to suit.
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As mentioned, the stock hydraulics can be converted to solids, and various racing pushrods companies could make pushrods for you of correct length.
I would wonder what is wrong with the factory hydraulics? We are getting 6500 rpm and about 38 rwhp with them as long as you have good valve springs.
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As mentioned, the stock hydraulics can be converted to solids, and various racing pushrods companies could make pushrods for you of correct length.
I would wonder what is wrong with the factory hydraulics? We are getting 6500 rpm and about 38 rwhp with them as long as you have good valve springs.
Nothing is wrong with them per se, it is more about quitting the valve train. Throughout the rpm range, the hydraulic lifters allow for more noise at various pressures. A sild adjustable system would provide a quieter ride, with the option to adjust accordingly when needed.
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Why fix what is not broke, on a new engine as well.
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Solid lifters are good for making excuses, " Sorry cant do that I have to adjust my lifters"
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Nothing is wrong with them per se, it is more about quitting the valve train. Throughout the rpm range, the hydraulic lifters allow for more noise at various pressures. A sild adjustable system would provide a quieter ride, with the option to adjust accordingly when needed.
Your understanding is backwards. Hydraulics are quiet because they have no lash gap, and solids are inherently noisy because they must have a lash gap.
There have been many reports of some "clicking" noises on the UCE engines, but it is not down to the hydraulic lifters. I have never isolated the actual source of whatever top-end noises have been complained about in the stock UCE engines, but I suspect that some of these engines are assembled by the factory with insufficient lifter preload to handle the amount of vertical expansion that these engines have, so they clack when warm.
While our Ace UCE engines use a different rocker system, we use the standard factory hydraulic lifters and it has a silent valve train. The lifters are not the source of noise in these engines. Something else causes the noise.
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Why fix what is not broke, on a new engine as well.
Just out of curiosity, did they also give you your old engine back to tinker with? 'Cause like Dalmatian Guy, tearing experimentally into a my sole and brand new motor wouldn't be my first impulse either...and most certainly not during prime riding season. But then, I'm quite sure your mechanical and engineering chops are more up to whatever you're up to than mine would be.
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Just out of curiosity, did they also give you your old engine back to tinker with? 'Cause like Dalmatian Guy, tearing experimentally into a my sole and brand new motor wouldn't be my first impulse either...and most certainly not during prime riding season. But then, I'm quite sure your mechanical and engineering chops are more up to whatever you're up to than mine would be.
Unfortunately, they would not allow me to keep the old engine. They wanted to tear into it themselves.
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GHG has really nice push rods. Send him a PM.
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GHG has really nice push rods. Send him a PM.
I did, but he hasn't been on.
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I did, but he hasn't been on.
Sorry. For some reason, I don't get email alerts anymore when someone PM's me ? But you can get me at my email address under my profile anytime. Happy to help and give an honest opinion. ;) And I have been a bit busy these last couple/few weeks , what with going over the handlebars on the highway, getting some rest , subsequently fixing the bike and helping other guys out with their bikes. ;D I'm fine , don't ask. Just a little scraped up and some sore ribs. I had forgotten how hard handle bars and black top can be !? :o ;D
PM sent Brad. And as far as I know ? I'm the only one who has uses solids, around here anyway . And yeah.. I can get adjustable rods easy, in different lengths , for different cams , or for solids or hydraulics. Oiled or not oiled and etc.
As far as noise goes on these bikes with Solid's vs Hydraulics, in my personal hands on experience with tuning and working on them for the past 8 or 10 years now ? Solids an Hydraulics sound about the same. Maybe actually slightly quieter with the solids , vs the Hydraulic's . You can judge for yourself though. Check out Singh 5's channel on YouTube and you can listen to my bike running with solids yourself. The valve train and top end noise comes from a lot of sources... one being the brass bush pressed inside the stock cams can be a bit out of round . FROM the factory. And that adjustable eccentric cam spindle ? ::) The massively heavy stock rocker's coming down on the valve tip and etc and etc. Take a look see at the stamped steal rockers used with Hydraulics on a Chevy 350 small block for instance and compare it to the pile driver rockers in our motors ! ;D
Anyway.... in my opinion. Solids are always better for performance then Hydraulics. EVEN if you are NOT reving it to the moon. You will get better and more consistent valve timing with solids then you will with Hydraulic's. Valve timing can vary a bit with Hydraulics , depending oil viscosity, oil temp and oil aeration and when that lifter actually locks going up that ramp. I don't think we would have gotten 36 and 38 Horse power and ft pounds of uncorrected torque AT THE wheel , at around 5700-5800 rpm's by using Hydraulics on that 500 cc motor. ;) BTW, the 500's Have a heavier crank then the GT. So personally, I would not rev the 500's much past 6200 rpm's without some bottom end lightening and some work. BUT.. solids DO take a little bit more to set up and you have to check and adjust your lash... Obviously. But better if you are trying to squeak every last bit out of that motor that you can, type of thing. The Hydraulics are not that bad in these bike I have found, I have done well with them. And you can keep them under control with better springs... or even just shimming the stock springs for that matter. BTW, I HAVE had one of these motors up to 6700 rpms with shimmed stock springs and Hydraulics .... and a little PC-V cheating . So the Hydraulics are pretty good.
GHG has really nice push rods. Send him a PM.
Thanks GSS. Just not from that ONE supplier out there ! Geez... ;)
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Reply sent GHG. Thanks for your input.
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Not relevant to the subject at hand, but:
Sorry. For some reason, I don't get email alerts anymore when someone PM's me ?
Me too...
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,27337.msg313328.html#msg313328 (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,27337.msg313328.html#msg313328)
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Not relevant to the subject at hand, but:
Me too...
https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,27337.msg313328.html#msg313328 (https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,27337.msg313328.html#msg313328)
Me also? Looong time me not notified.
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what with going over the handlebars on the highway
Can we ask what happened?
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Probably too much front brake and not enough rear brake... and a slick busy interstate exit lane , from one major interstate onto another. During rush hour, the exit is usually bumper to bumper traffic , with car's just sitting there. This was on the week end though. Straight line front wheel lock-up/ skid and high sided doing around 35 mph maybe ? In a literal blink of an eye. Some jerk off was cutting in ahead of the exit line of cars, moving steady toward the exit. The guy in front of me braked hard. I remember pulling in the clutch , the front brake and going for rear brake, and at that point I must have blinked, and the next thing I knew I was rolling down the lane. Really that quick . I figure my front brake caught first, the front wheel locked or skidded briefly on something ? And enough to jerk the bars to the left , and I went over to the right. I DO like the idea of anti lock brakes now ... ;)
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Glad to hear you're OK. I think we all have that type of accident at some point, mine was at 70mph and I somehow ended up with my 1300cc bike on top of me - I was left feeling completely FUBAR for about 6 months. I'm fairly impressed though with the brakes on my ABS Classic, I don't notice any difference between them and any other modern bike I've ridden (which is a good thing).
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Probably too much front brake and not enough rear brake... and a slick busy interstate exit lane , from one major interstate onto another. During rush hour, the exit is usually bumper to bumper traffic , with car's just sitting there. This was on the week end though. Straight line front wheel lock-up/ skid and high sided doing around 35 mph maybe ? In a literal blink of an eye. Some jerk off was cutting in ahead of the exit line of cars, moving steady toward the exit. The guy in front of me braked hard. I remember pulling in the clutch , the front brake and going for rear brake, and at that point I must have blinked, and the next thing I knew I was rolling down the lane. Really that quick . I figure my front brake caught first, the front wheel locked or skidded briefly on something ? And enough to jerk the bars to the left , and I went over to the right. I DO like the idea of anti lock brakes now ... ;)
Glad to hear you're okay mate. Didn't know this had happened - and you've been helping us out..
Wishin you a speedy recovery.
Were you on your Cafe Racer?
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Probably too much front brake and not enough rear brake... and a slick busy interstate exit lane , from one major interstate onto another. During rush hour, the exit is usually bumper to bumper traffic , with car's just sitting there. This was on the week end though. Straight line front wheel lock-up/ skid and high sided doing around 35 mph maybe ? In a literal blink of an eye. Some jerk off was cutting in ahead of the exit line of cars, moving steady toward the exit. The guy in front of me braked hard. I remember pulling in the clutch , the front brake and going for rear brake, and at that point I must have blinked, and the next thing I knew I was rolling down the lane. Really that quick . I figure my front brake caught first, the front wheel locked or skidded briefly on something ? And enough to jerk the bars to the left , and I went over to the right. I DO like the idea of anti lock brakes now ... ;)
Also wish you speedy recovery, these things happen,
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Glad you're OK! Really! Could have been a lot worse.
Similar to what happened to my Santa Fe bud. He seriously lucked out, too. His bike...not so much.
Got it in the shop now.
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Glad to hear you're OK. I think we all have that type of accident at some point, mine was at 70mph and I somehow ended up with my 1300cc bike on top of me - I was left feeling completely FUBAR for about 6 months. I'm fairly impressed though with the brakes on my ABS Classic, I don't notice any difference between them and any other modern bike I've ridden (which is a good thing).
Thanks Mike. And I'm glad YOUR OK ! WOW ! Mine was not that bad for sure. Yeah, sure seems to take a bit of time the older one gets to start feeling better ! LOL ! Not bad though. Good to know with the Enfield ABS system ... Zero experience with ABS on bikes in General here. On Cars and Trucks ? Oh yes. Love 'em ! I'm on the road pretty much all day in Large Truck , in all kinds of weather conditions. ABS has most definitely prevented accidents and injuries in my experience.
Glad to hear you're okay mate. Didn't know this had happened - and you've been helping us out..
Wishin you a speedy recovery.
Were you on your Cafe Racer?
Thank's Jai ! And NO... thank Gawd ! ;) I was on the TANK .. the G-5. That thing can take a lickin' I tell ya. Very minimal damage , mostly from sliding. Little scratch on the headlight chrome, Tip of the front fender, master cylinder and lever ground down a bit, snapped the right rear blinker off, little scratch on the tip of the muffler and a slightly bent right side peg... probably from coming down on my heal ! LOL ! The solid right side peg saved the bike from a lot more damage though. After I got over to the side of the road, and caught my breath from the wind getting knocked out of me, the driver who was in front of me got out and gave me a hand getting the bike up and over to the shoulder. I bent the fender out , and the bike started right up. Then a pretty sore ride home ...
Also wish you speedy recovery, these things happen,
Yes they do, And Thank you ;)
Glad you're OK! Really! Could have been a lot worse.
Similar to what happened to my Santa Fe bud. He seriously lucked out, too. His bike...not so much.
Got it in the shop now.
Yes ! Thanks... It sure could have been ! I'm glad I slid to the right, instead of the left and into the travel lane ....
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Godspeed on your recovery. I've always been wary of that kind of fall, having read about it many times.
Even more caution now, esp as I ride my boys around on local errands, for as long as they want to hang out with their pop.
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Wow! Totally scary and very glad that you are OK.
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Godspeed on your recovery. I've always been wary of that kind of fall, having read about it many times.
Even more caution now, esp as I ride my boys around on local errands, for as long as they want to hang out with their pop.
Wow! Totally scary and very glad that you are OK.
Thanks Boys . ;) Feeling much better now since I took some time off. A couple /few more weeks should do me.
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Your understanding is backwards. Hydraulics are quiet because they have no lash gap, and solids are inherently noisy because they must have a lash gap.
There have been many reports of some "clicking" noises on the UCE engines, but it is not down to the hydraulic lifters. I have never isolated the actual source of whatever top-end noises have been complained about in the stock UCE engines, but I suspect that some of these engines are assembled by the factory with insufficient lifter preload to handle the amount of vertical expansion that these engines have, so they clack when warm.
While our Ace UCE engines use a different rocker system, we use the standard factory hydraulic lifters and it has a silent valve train. The lifters are not the source of noise in these engines. Something else causes the noise.
I suppose I hear at least a few hundred of these engines running past our place in a typical week, and there definitely is a wide range in terms of lifter/valvetrain noise. I just bought a 2013 G5 (Bullet Standard 500 carb version) that's absolutely silent. Looked at a 2017 350 that was noisy. Friend's year-old bike had to have them done under warranty because they were extremely noisy, and I've heard quite a few others like that - I mean, considerably noisier than my AVL - and that's saying something!
In the old days of American pushrod V8's, a failed/failing, ticking hydraulic lifter in an engine wasn't that unusual. Internal tolerances for these particular components are very tight, and RE (and/or their suppliers) don't do close tolerances very well. I'd guess that some of them are simply defective, others could be variations in gaskets or the cylinder height itself, which as ACE said could alter pre-load.
Getting back to those V-8's, some (Chevy small/big-blocks) had adjustable lash, some (Oldsmobile and others) did not. Personally when you're dealing with a machine as poorly and randomly manufactured as RE's are wont to be (some 350/500s vibe like mad, some surprisingly smooth, etc, etc), I think the adjustability would be a great upgrade, and having seen the various CI/AVL/UCE pushrods, shouldn't be difficult at all to do.
-Eric
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The Hydraulic Lifters in these motors are , or at least were American made. You'll find them in a lot of GM motors . They are a short lifter, with about .90 -100 travel inside the plunger. And oil pressure supplied to them is more then adequate I have found.... Unless one sets their idle too low. They need about a minimum of 5 psi to operate correctly. On a hot motor , with thinned out oil and an idle set tooo low ... that will get one some noise ! The higher the idle , the higher the oil pressure. And that's at least 1100-1200 rpm's I would say. Pre-load will definitely effect noise... I found with a very light pre-load on these lifters the valve train is soo much quieter.
The Cam gears run on eccentric/ adjustable spindles. Or basically and adjustable egg shaped shaft. From one side of that egged spindle to the other, there is about .011" of run out. .010" of lift is worth about 25 degree's of crank shaft rotation. So , depending on where one might have their cam lash adjusted ... intake and exhaust Cam . The run out may be more or less. And a 25 degree swing in valve timing is quite a bit !! And WILL effect performance ! For better or worse. So when the Cam lash is adjusted , your somewhere in the middle of that 25 degrees give or take. This is why some stock bike perform better or worse ten others I think. This not only effects valve timing and Lobe separation angle as the Cam gears teeth crawl a little back or forth over each other as gear lash is adjusted, but the brass bushing pressed inside of the cam gear also takes on this egged shape as miles are put on the motor. So your cams are running around that spindle a little wobbly ... with run out . And the Hydraulic lifters wheel is running on that wobbly egg, and the plunger is going up and down up and up and down on that wobbly base circle. Not an ideal situation for hydraulic lifters to be in ! They need stability to work correctly. So anyway, I have found that with a solid lifter and LASH , your going right over eggy base circle without ill effect. And valve timing becomes more consistent and quieter. Running a lite pre-load on the stock Hydraulic lifter's will also dampen that effect and also make the valve train run quieter... and don't get me started on what that auto decomp can do to the stock lifters ! ::)
With all of this, you can see why RE's newest motors are overhead Cam motors. One reason I think is, they don't have to deal with this BS with a push rod motor with Hydraulic lifters . And you generally get better performance out of an overhead cam-ed motor. That new Himalayan Motor is a overhead cam motor, WITH an auto decomp on that overhead Cam without Hydraulics. Any body hearing about problem with the auto decomp on THAT motor ? They set out I think , to make a quieter running Bullet ... because quite is BIG in India. And so is a very low idle ! Deep low thump thump thump thump . But failed a bit in the valve train noise dept. Ya can't really do low idle Thump Thump Thumps's for very long with Hydraulic lifters... maybe at a cold start up ? But as that motor heats up , and that oil thins and the pressure drop's ? You may be collapsing that lifter. They should have put solid lifters in these motors...
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RE set out I think , to make a quieter running Bullet ... because quite is BIG in India. And so is a very low idle ! Deep low thump thump thump thump . But failed a bit in the valve train noise dept.
Very true; almost everyone who knows anything or has any interest in Bullets over here (in India) complains about the excessive valvetrain noise in the UCE's predecessor, the AVL. Collector interest in the old iron-cylinder models has ramped up incredibly high in the past several years, while more powerful, efficient, clean-running AVL's, despite their being hardly different technologically or visually, seem to be like rejected stepchildren selling for half the price or less. Because they're noisy. I'm serious, everybody mentions it, just about every owner is/was frustrated with it. Iron Bullets properly built are extremely quiet, one foreign owner here described riding his as a "Zen-like" experience, whatever that means. Not practicing Zen myself, I'll just say they do have a certain kind of lazy, undemanding, smooth, calming "magic" about them. There is nothing distracting or unpleasant there at all (unless you want to ride fast).
So yes, when it came to designing the UCE's, I'm sure that quietness, along with reducing maintenance, was at the top of their list of priorities. Overall, on average, hydraulics have done what they needed to for them, but as noted, for people who want to extract more predictable additional performance and who don't mind a little extra maintenance and who loathe the idea of having to pull off a top-end to replace potentially defective lifters (or change to a thinner, unlikely available cylinder base gasket, etc etc), I'd think the solids could provide real-world advantages.
-Eric