Author Topic: Kickstarting tips?  (Read 1214 times)

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Handirifle

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Reply #30 on: February 11, 2024, 09:30:21 pm
About 15 years ago, I had a Honda XL600R, it was kick start only. Sometimes it started first kick, sometimes on the 40th.  When I rode it to town for parts one summer day, it chose to stall at a light.  About 40 kicks later it started.  I sold it a week after that, and swore I would never buy another kick start bike again.  I haven't.

I have always started NORMAL kick start bikes, by cycling the kickstart lever to get the piston at just the start of compression cycle, and then standing up on left foot peg (I am 5'6" also) and giving it the full long kick.  That always worked on normal bikes.

Check the spark plug, wires and fuel delivery.  If the plug shows lean or rich, correct that issues, and it might solve the kick start issues as well.  Can also experiment with different heat ranges of spark plugs.  I have seen some machines that like colder or hotter than called for from OEM.
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SteveThackery

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Reply #31 on: February 11, 2024, 11:43:39 pm

I have always started NORMAL kick start bikes, by cycling the kickstart lever to get the piston at just the start of compression cycle, and then standing up on left foot peg (I am 5'6" also) and giving it the full long kick.  That always worked on normal bikes.


The only detail where we differ is that I then ease it through the compression stroke first, before going for the full long kick.
Meteor 350

Previous:
'14 B5
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

...plus loads of other bikes: German, British, Japanese, Italian, East European.


axman88

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Reply #32 on: February 11, 2024, 11:45:59 pm
However, there is something odd going on. It shows two spark plugs, and to the very best of my knowledge, all the ones imported into my country (UK) at least had only one spark plug. I also think they always had a sidestand switch.

I've owned all three generations of the Bullet (iron barrel, AVL, UCE) and they definitely all had only  one plug, and a sidestand switch.

Clearly there are minor differences, presumably depending on which country they are being sold in.
There is certainly something going on.  We have three members weighing in saying they CAN kick start THEIR machines with the side stand down, (two of those were '11 builds, the other unknown).  And, we have a couple more saying they disconnected or bypassed their sidestand switch.  And we have a couple members saying nobody will be able to kickstart any UCE with the sidestand down.

I should probably dig through the boxes of parts that contain my '99 Bullet, and my '12 C5 to verify, before I pile on more speculation, but I think the '99 does NOT have one, and the '12 does.  However, it's not so much the presence of a switch that determines whether the bike can be started with the stand down or not, it's HOW the switch is wired.

An electrical design that I have seen perhaps more often than interrupting power to the ignition is to disrupt the primary circuit of the starting relay, generally on the ground side.  Of course, that's usually seen on electric start only machines, and contrived to be functionally in series with the neutral switch.  Another early design just turned on a warning light.   Folks whose machines are fitted ONLY with side stands, which seems to include most of them nowadays, might well want the machine to be able to start and run on the side stand.

It would be nice if RE was more careful about publishing accurate wiring schematics for every variant, but that ship has sailed.   Wading through the wiring diagrams published in my '02 edition P. Snidal Bullet Service Manual, I'm not seeing sidestand switches on ANY of the SIX diagrams.  Indeed, I haven't seen something labeled as, or even looking possibly like, a sidestand switch, showing up on any Bullet / Classic 500 schematic dated earlier than 2014 or so, at which point they are shown as triggering a Sidestand Relay daisy-chained to the Power Relay's primary, as I mentioned in my earlier post.   Of course it could be present and undocumented, or I could be missing it on every drawing.

I wonder, HOW was the switch wired on your various IB, AVL and UCE machines?


SteveThackery

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Reply #33 on: February 11, 2024, 11:55:45 pm
What country are you in, axman88?

I think (but don't know for sure) that all bikes sold in the UK must have a sidestand switch.

Traditionally bikes with sidestand switches can be started with the sidestand extended, but they cut out as soon as the bike is put into gear. Both my current bikes work like that. My Enfields were different - they would turn over on the starter but wouldn't fire.

Tomorrow I will dig out the wiring diagram for the UCE Bullet I had and post it. It makes it clear how it is wired up.
Meteor 350

Previous:
'14 B5
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

...plus loads of other bikes: German, British, Japanese, Italian, East European.


gizzo

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Reply #34 on: February 12, 2024, 12:16:34 am
There is certainly something going on.  We have three members weighing in saying they CAN kick start THEIR machines with the side stand down, (two of those were '11 builds, the other unknown).  And, we have a couple more saying they disconnected or bypassed their sidestand switch.  And we have a couple members saying nobody will be able to kickstart any UCE with the sidestand down.


Mine is a '14 CGT and I've eliminated the sidestand switch. Mostly because I like to use the sidestand with the bike running while I open and close the gate. Before that, it wouldn't start with the stand down.
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om15

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Reply #35 on: February 12, 2024, 09:17:42 am
My 2015 Bullet will turn on the starter with the side stand down, but won't start as it looks like the fuel pump is wired through the side stand, another thing I have read or heard from somewhere is that it is designed not to run on the side stand because at that bike angle the oil pump can cavitate and not supply oil under pressure to the various oil outlets.
current bikes
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Previous, RE Classic 500, Classic 350 , RE Himalayan 2019, RE Interceptor 2020.
Triumph Trident 900, 2003 Bonneville 790 , Adventurer 900, T100 Bonneville, Street Twin. Tracer 700.  BSA C15, Yamaha XT500
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SteveThackery

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Reply #36 on: February 12, 2024, 12:04:56 pm
Attached is a document giving the wiring diagram and the circuit diagram (schematic) of the 2011 UCE. I checked, and my 2014 model was identical.  Note, mine was a UK model.

The sidestand switch disconnects the power relay, which switches off the power to the ECU, so no starting or running when the sidestand is down. However, it does not disconnect the starter, so the engine will still turn over.
Meteor 350

Previous:
'14 B5
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

...plus loads of other bikes: German, British, Japanese, Italian, East European.


Haggis

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Reply #37 on: February 12, 2024, 04:54:47 pm
Your wiring diagram has been spot on for all my efi since 2014.
Colours occasionally alter in some years but easy to work out.
Thank you.
Off route, recalculate?


Monkee

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Reply #38 on: February 14, 2024, 06:56:10 am
What country are you in, axman88?

I think (but don't know for sure) that all bikes sold in the UK must have a sidestand switch.

Traditionally bikes with sidestand switches can be started with the sidestand extended, but they cut out as soon as the bike is put into gear. Both my current bikes work like that. My Enfields were different - they would turn over on the starter but wouldn't fire.

Tomorrow I will dig out the wiring diagram for the UCE Bullet I had and post it. It makes it clear how it is wired up.


As far as sidestand kill switches. all of the doezens of bikes i've ridden of different makes and models they only cut off the engine when the bike is in gear and the side stand is down. When its in neutral it shouldn't matter and should be able to start.

But regardless my sidestand switch (if i have one) is either bypassed or non existent i've accidentally taken off in first gear with the side stand down.


Monkee

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Reply #39 on: February 14, 2024, 06:58:54 am
Also an update:

I had to go do some errands around town and I figured its a nice sunny day to take the c5 out. I think i got the hang of kicking it over astride the bike. The technique is to get as far back on the seat as possible so that the kicker is perpendicular to your knee as possible, then with a little hop give it a wallop (making sure you're at TDC or a little past) and starts right up.

so in conclusion it is a leverage issue me being a little vertically challenged.


SteveThackery

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Reply #40 on: February 14, 2024, 09:13:24 am
As far as sidestand kill switches. all of the doezens of bikes i've ridden of different makes and models they only cut off the engine when the bike is in gear and the side stand is down. When its in neutral it shouldn't matter and should be able to start.

Yes, that's exactly right, but it isn't how RE do it. At least not on the three singles I've owned. They wouldn't start with the sidestand down regardless of what you do with the gears and the clutch. If you would care to look at the wiring diagram you will see exactly why.
Meteor 350

Previous:
'14 B5
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

...plus loads of other bikes: German, British, Japanese, Italian, East European.


Monkee

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Reply #41 on: February 14, 2024, 11:38:28 am
Yes, that's exactly right, but it isn't how RE do it. At least not on the three singles I've owned. They wouldn't start with the sidestand down regardless of what you do with the gears and the clutch. If you would care to look at the wiring diagram you will see exactly why.

It is rather peculiar they would do it like that. im just glad my sidestand switch is non existent. makes it easier to troubleshoot.


SteveThackery

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Reply #42 on: February 14, 2024, 11:49:10 am
It is rather peculiar they would do it like that. im just glad my sidestand switch is non existent. makes it easier to troubleshoot.

It is peculiar. In fact it looks like a bodge, to me. When the sidestand is down it operates a relay which in turn disconnects the power relay. Disconnecting the power relay cuts the power to the ECU. The clutch switch and the neutral switch aren't involved in the circuit.

It's a bodge for two reasons. Firstly, it stops the bike running with the sidestand down, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do and every other bike on the planet* can do it. Secondly, when the sidestand is down the starter will still operate, but the engine won't fire. I don't know of any other bike that lets the starter run when the engine is disabled for any reason - in gear, sidestand down, clutch not pulled, etc.

*I haven't really checked every bike on the planet, but you know what I mean.  :D
Meteor 350

Previous:
'14 B5
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

...plus loads of other bikes: German, British, Japanese, Italian, East European.


axman88

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Reply #43 on: February 14, 2024, 04:28:11 pm
It is peculiar. In fact it looks like a bodge, to me. When the sidestand is down it operates a relay which in turn disconnects the power relay. Disconnecting the power relay cuts the power to the ECU. The clutch switch and the neutral switch aren't involved in the circuit.
I'm in Chicago, IL, USA.

Thanks for posting the wiring diagram for the '11.  This is the circuit design I was referring to, that I had seen on later model diagrams.  I looks like it also interrupts fuel pump power, but the loss of ignition would trump that effect.  It certainly does seem like a bodge to me, for the reasons you cited, but perhaps was a continuation from an earlier implementation, where there was no neutral switch in the system, and ONLY an ignition circuit to interrupt, and nobody bothered to rethink the design.

Speaking of earlier circuit designs, was this the circuit that was used for earlier models?  You mentioned that your IB and AVL also had sidestand switches?  Obviously, those didn't have ECUs, or even ICUs, but one could interrupt power to the ignition system by putting another switch (or better yet, a relay) in series with the kill switch.  I don't remember any relays being on the harness when I tore down my '99 Bullet, not the presence of a sidestand switch, but my memory isn't that great and I did that quite some time ago.  What do you know about those older safety circuits?   I haven't seen anything documented on a wiring diagram from the pre-UCE era.

I'm not surprised that so many riders report defeating that side stand switch function.  Hitchcock's even capitalized on the market, by offering this assembly, for folks who can't sleep nights having a switch that was simply bypassed or removed.  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Side-Stand-Factory/29097
I have to say, calling the assembly "Without Switch Provision" does suggest that there was also a "With Switch" version.


SteveThackery

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Reply #44 on: February 14, 2024, 09:59:10 pm
So my AVL definitely worked in the same (wrong) way as the UCE. To be truthful I cannot remember exactly how my iron barrel behaved, but I know it had a sidestand switch. I strongly suspect that sidestand switches have been mandatory in the UK for decades. The only bike I can remember not having a sidestand switch was my 1978 Commando, and I'm only 90% certain about that.
Meteor 350

Previous:
'14 B5
'06 ElectraX (Good bike, had no trouble at all)
'02 500ES (Fully "Hitchcocked" - 535, cams, piston, etc - and still a piece of junk)

...plus loads of other bikes: German, British, Japanese, Italian, East European.