Author Topic: Intro and question: Smooth Left Side  (Read 12760 times)

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nonfiction

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on: August 03, 2020, 05:05:26 pm
Howdy y'all!
 
My first post here. The good community and civil conversations here have gone a long way toward convincing me the bike I just bought would be good choice--not just for the bike but for the people.

I'm a lifelong moto guy in Seattle, now the new owner of a 2007 5 speed electric start iron barrel Bullet. I don't even have it in my possession yet. But I do have a vision for the bike (involves the letters ISDT), and one of the first things I hope I can accomplish is maybe the most significant, mechanically: I want to get rid of the big ugly cylindrical Alternator hump in the left side primary/clutch cover, and run an older style smooth one. Possible?

Now, I'm aware there are important parts behind that big lump, but I'm also aware that these bikes have an awful lot of parts interchangeability and a pretty simple electrical system. Plus, I'm likely to reduce the electrics on this bike to bare minimum, likely foregoing electric start, and going to either a very small battery or none at all. I'm hoping this last bit will be the key.

SO. I'm wondering, is there an efficient path to doing all this: Smooth left side, no electric start, tidy and clean as you like just like it's 1967?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 05:08:44 pm by nonfiction »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: August 03, 2020, 06:42:39 pm
Welcome Nonfiction - my 1999 kick-start only IB Bullets both have the smooth cover; one's the all DC model & the other is the newer AC/DC. Hitchcocks shows PN# 111889 for the inner cover & 143907 for the outer. I assume the bulge in your machine is to accomodate the self-fragging starter mechanism. Alternators are pretty cheap, IF you need a different one.  https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Parts-Book-Online   
These cases also show up also in E-bay.

I assume you'll mount 21"/18" alloy rims? Hitch's carries the 40 spoke sets in stainless.
Here's H's Kit link:   https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Trials-Kit-Bullet-Pre-Unit/18946        About $2K USD
Don't forget to gear down & use the "trials gears":
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/4-speed/11355     Roughly $130 USD
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Rear-Wheel-Sprockets-Bolt-On/18715   Roughly $110 USD

I have seen many "trail bikes" running the ridiculous 38T rear sprocket. The Bolt-on hub allows you to drop gear ratios to ones suitable for at least mild off-roading. The aftermarket pair of trials gears makes the first 3 ratios lower and leaves 4th for getting home. All done with the trans bolted into the frame.

Get your checkbook out and start having fun! - ACR-
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nonfiction

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Reply #2 on: August 03, 2020, 06:49:56 pm
Thanks ReTred! You're ahead of me on the 18/21 rims and the trials gears (are the 4sp ones usable in a 5sp box? I don't see 5sp trials gears offered). I anticipate I'll also be going to right hand shift to clear the undercarriage, so that'll make the switch easier. My bike has most of the Hitchcock's trials kit already installed, light rims and pretty tank included!), plus a disc brake upgrade on the front.

This is good stuff. Much obliged. Once the bike is in my possession I'll make some pictures and start this conversation in Ernest. Yay!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 07:12:13 pm by nonfiction »


Paul W

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Reply #3 on: August 03, 2020, 07:19:13 pm
Does your bike have a “centre bolt” left side outer chain case with an “O” ring seal , or does it have a set of perimeter screws and a conventional paper gasket? If it has the screws it will be a 500 Electra and you would need a 350 Electra inner chain case; these were not fitted with a starter motor so don’t have that ugly hump.

Alternatively you could just remove the starter mechanism and blank off the aperture for the motor. Hitchcock’s sell a plug which just pushes in where the motor used to sit.

By the way, the hump isn’t for the alternator, it is for the starter motor. The alternator sits inside on the end of the crank.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 07:23:16 pm by Paul W »
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nonfiction

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Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 07:29:02 pm
@Paul W, thank you. I do mean the alternator hump. I hope to dispense with the starter motor tower (and motor) also, ideally in the same round of mods. I reckon that means new inner and outer primary/clutch cases, but the part my post is nominally about is the round part behind the shift lever, that says Royal Enfield on the outside.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 07:42:00 pm by nonfiction »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #5 on: August 03, 2020, 07:36:06 pm
Ha ha - I needs me 'mo coffee I guess - you DID specifically say you had a 5 speed. Ageing is great...

So except for the bolt-on-sprocket hub and 21/18 rims you're all set. The 5 speed is the "holy grail", and the disc brake will keep a lot of pucker marks out of your seat. The alloys are nice because of the weight reduction. 21's roll over things better and steer so well in the dirt - long skinny contact patch I suppose. There are softer fork & shock springs available IF the stock spring rates prove too harsh for trail.

The lower overall gearing with the 5-speed should make it a ball to trail ride. It's supposed to be nearly on par with the Japanese efforts. That low-compression motor and heavy flywheel allow the machines rear tire to "stick" amazingly well. As a sprout I followed a lot of TT500 Yamahas and was amazed that they could find traction many places when all my 2-stroke could do was wheel spin. Pick smooth lines and you'll be surprised at the traction.

Send pix when you got 'em - ACR-
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DavidGraves

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Reply #6 on: August 03, 2020, 07:43:09 pm
Hello and Welcome !

I live down on the N Oregon coast.

Do you have in mind a build somewhat like this :

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/mcy/d/roslyn-royal-enfield-trials/7158216888.html

This seller might have some insights for you on where to find bits like the exhaust etc.

Good luck with the project.

David Graves


nonfiction

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Reply #7 on: August 03, 2020, 08:13:41 pm
Hi David,
Thanks for the welcome. My bike is indeed somewhat along those lines. I spoke with the owner of that Craigslist bike a while back, seems like a nice ride. But the one I am getting already has most of the cosmetic and functional parts from the Hitchcock's trials kit, including the sweet high exhaust and the pretty tins and the tough-guy footpegs. I still need a scrambler handlebar and trials top yoke, plus the gearing and electrical bits discussed above. I also will need to lose the ungainly (if authentic-ish) sprung seat, in favor of something a bit more trim. Mine looks like the attached, as it sits in the seller's driveway.

My inspiration is the bike built by a French fella, documented in this thread (open in Chrome for free translation if you don't read French): https://www.caferacerclub.org/t36607-royal-enfield-isdt
... he's done such a lovely job and made a bike that suits my use case so well, I'm thinking I'm just gonna replica this guy's build as closely as I can.

Do you have in mind a build somewhat like this :

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/mcy/d/roslyn-royal-enfield-trials/7158216888.html

Good luck with the project.

David Graves
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 08:19:03 pm by nonfiction »


Paul W

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Reply #8 on: August 03, 2020, 08:32:01 pm
@Paul W, thank you. I do mean the alternator hump. I hope to dispense with the starter motor tower (and motor) also, ideally in the same round of mods. I reckon that means new inner and outer primary/clutch cases, but the part my post is nominally about is the round part behind the shift lever, that says Royal Enfield on the outside.

Aah, now I understand better.  :)
Paul W.


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Reply #9 on: August 03, 2020, 09:19:51 pm
The rims are already alloy! Very nice. You might consider dispensing with the odometer altogether and just install a small unobtrusive electric tachometer. You'd just need to determine where 30 & 60 MPH was and you'd be set. Less to fiddle with, and with that 2 1/2 gallon alloy tank you'll likely be fuelling up at every opportunity anyhow. Without a trip odometer, a speedo isn't a lot of use off-road, which is the purpose of the exercise. Aluminum handlebars have some shock-dulling capability as well as being lighter & not rusting. The Royal Enfield Thunderbird has a triple tree set that looks taken right from offroad, and also uses a fork-mounted headlight. E-bay has parts like that.

Without lowering the final drive ratio, trail riding gets to be real work. It's hard to "cowtrail" when every power pulse moves the bike six feet. A 46 to 50 tooth sprocket would still allow 45 - 50 or so on the street and be a lot more comfortable off-road.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #10 on: August 03, 2020, 09:28:51 pm
Your Frenchman had the same idea about retasking the Thunderbird triple tree, but there were dimensional issues. Oh well...

>>>  I first buy a low price Royal Enfield Thunderbird triple tree (ref 801100)
A lousy motorcycle, fortunately not imported by us, but with most parts compatible with the Royal Enfield Bullet.
...........and the location of the column bearing is in no way compatible with my mount.<<<
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Reply #11 on: August 03, 2020, 10:52:31 pm
Your Frenchman had the same idea about retasking the Thunderbird triple tree, but there were dimensional issues. Oh well...

>>>  I first buy a low price Royal Enfield Thunderbird triple tree (ref 801100)
A lousy motorcycle, fortunately not imported by us, but with most parts compatible with the Royal Enfield Bullet.
...........and the location of the column bearing is in no way compatible with my mount.<<<

In this Indian home market "Thunderbird" model vein, I seem to recall someone here, possibly English, mentioning long ago that that model's primary cases may be the replacement cure for that electric starter hump...though whether it may be smooth at the alternator, I cannot say. A search of the Forum Archives for "thunderbird primary" should coax that info out. As for me, though I've long since yanked off the troublesome and ugly electric start, and capped off the hole with one of those nice Hitchcock's billet alloy blanking plugs, I sort of LIKE the now-redundant and enigmatic hump. I think it looks sort of "rakish" somehow--its turgid upward sweep being somehow a compositional counterpoint to the other timing case side's almost shamelessly erect "Romulan Marital Aid" motif. I like the hump. I like to say, "I like the hump." Hump! I also imagine that without that butt-ugly starter motor in the way, the cylinder must be getting a bit better cooling air flow blowing through its fins. Blowing!

Oh, and welcome to the Horde of the Riders of the Archaic and Flying Fossils! I'll be in my bunk.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 02:52:16 am by Bilgemaster »
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


Paul W

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Reply #12 on: August 03, 2020, 11:28:48 pm
Here’s my 350 Bullet Electra. It has electronic ignition driven off the crank, but it has no starter motor. The left side cases are different to most other Bullets, screws and a gasket instead of the central bolt and O ring. It causes some confusion when ordering parts, even at Hitchcock’s.
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nonfiction

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Reply #13 on: August 04, 2020, 12:26:38 am
@Paul W, yup, that's the look I'm gunning for: Smooth case, top and side. (I don't *LOVE* the look of those bolts around the perimeter, but if that's what I end up with because that's what fits, I'll be just fine with it.)


ace.cafe

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Reply #14 on: August 04, 2020, 12:41:43 am
Yes, it can be done. We have done plenty of them.

The problem is that the parts are now hard to get, and expensive.There were not very many kickstart 5-speed Bullets.  If you look hard, you can probably find the parts.

It is much easier to find a kickstart 4-speed primary chaincase, and convert the 5-speed to right shift/left brake.
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Reply #15 on: August 04, 2020, 11:55:24 am
Here’s my 350 Bullet Electra. It has electronic ignition driven off the crank, but it has no starter motor. The left side cases are different to most other Bullets, screws and a gasket instead of the central bolt and O ring. It causes some confusion when ordering parts, even at Hitchcock’s.

          Nice bike. I'm curious about what brand that tricky looking petcock is. It looks like PNC or PAC?
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ddavidv

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Reply #16 on: August 04, 2020, 12:01:41 pm
Though this is a 'real' trials bike build I found it extremely educational on basic Bullet building techniques.
https://youtu.be/Mg4qKJhAeMA
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Reply #17 on: August 04, 2020, 02:08:09 pm
Michael Waller is my fave. His current build is an XS650 in a BSA B50 frame.
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nonfiction

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Reply #18 on: August 04, 2020, 05:26:57 pm
@ddavidv, WOWZA! That video looks great. I'd seen some of his stuff, but not this. Tucking in later today. My bike should arrive in Seattle on Monday. 


AzCal Retred

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Reply #19 on: August 04, 2020, 07:04:30 pm
Nonfiction - Here's a YouTube link showing an old Electra with the "bare bones" front end treatment. The tiny speedo has a trip resettable odometer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV-cC2noM7U
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nonfiction

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Reply #20 on: August 04, 2020, 07:45:51 pm
Those folks at Baak sure do turn out some lovely things. I like that triple clamp arrangement (I reckon that's a full set of Thunderbird triples), and the headlight is the exact model I would like to find and mount up. Super tidy little stainless mounting ears they've fitted also. Thank you for the link/inspo!

Nonfiction - Here's a YouTube link showing an old Electra with the "bare bones" front end treatment. The tiny speedo has a trip resettable odometer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV-cC2noM7U


nonfiction

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Reply #21 on: August 04, 2020, 08:06:55 pm
@Ace, thanks. That's encouraging. Once I have the bike in hand, I'll march more forcefully into this quest.


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Reply #22 on: August 04, 2020, 09:36:26 pm
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


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Reply #23 on: August 05, 2020, 12:44:38 pm
Michael Waller's videos convinced me that diving into a Albion transmission wasn't terribly scary (it wasn't). His rebuild of the Indian twin helped push me toward buying something similar (I'll know after the weekend). Plus I could listen to him talk for hours. His delivery is great. I believe he was an educator for a time in the UK and it certainly shows. The man should teach shop classes.
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Paul W

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Reply #24 on: August 07, 2020, 01:20:39 pm
          Nice bike. I'm curious about what brand that tricky looking petcock is. It looks like PNC or PAC?

It's the same as this (but mine came from eBay): https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Petrol-Tank-Taps/20293

I later ditched it after removing the in built filter whilst trying to solve a fuel flow problem with the bike. Back then it had its original 24mm Mikcarb fitted (it turned out to be a manufacturing fault in the carb itself, not the fuel tap). The bike now has a Wassell 26mm concentric fitted, runs better and allows more power.
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nonfiction

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Reply #25 on: August 12, 2020, 01:35:38 am
The bike has arrived with me. It's just as lovely as the two pictures I stared at over the last five weeks. I'm more smitten than ever with the beautiful (TINY) gas tank, kinda hating the look of the seat, and very excited to change the tires.

I have ordered a set of Pirelli MT43 trials tires for it from my local tire guy, and am trying to hold off buying a whole slew of other stuff all at once too, as I don't want to get ahead of myself and in too d$$p before I even know how I feel about the bike.

First impressions (riding a few times around my block, because I hadn't got a license plate for it until today):

• It's LOUD with that trials exhaust! (Hitchcocks sells a baffle for this exhaust--have to find out if it's installed. Hope not, cause it's a bit antisocial!)
• The disk brake stops the bike, like, remarkably well!
• No worrisome noises from sprag clutch. Starts easy, button or kick. Well in truth I'll need to practice the kick start routine some. Resorted to electric leg a couple times.
• Bit of fiddliness in the ignition switch--wiggle key to get lights. Will dig in.
• Ugly heat shield on the exhaust needs a standoff--as it is it's heating up with the exhaust in real time. OUCH.
• Wiring all needs re-wrapped; I'll likely be doing a big go-through on this anyhow. Want it tidy and minimal.
• Really need new handlebars--that bend is not nice for my wrists.
• Seat is comfy-ish, but is not in keeping with the vibe I'm seeking for this bike.
• Fenders/mudguards are too new, too shiny! Need to get some dirt on em.
• I'll be ordering longer shock absorbers pretty shortly to get the back end up a little bit. Are there any chainline issues with 2" longer shocks (360mm/14")? Aware kickstand/sidestand will be affected of course.
• Apart from chrome sheeting off the straight kickstart lever, the finishes are all pretty nice on this bike. That lever needs to be set right and tightened!
• Quality looking stainless bolt set on the motor/trans
• Needs a going over with grease/Loc-tite and a wd40 rag, as all the bolts/nuts look a bit dry and chalky.
• When the disk brake kit was put on, one of the mounting ears on that leg broke a little bit. Gonna keep a real close eye on that.
• The forks top out a bit abruptly, clunkily.

It GOES. It's got a real nice go-urge to it. Really feel that big crank. Feels relaxed but also content to push a little. Having a good front brake always makes a motorcycle feel faster, that's gotta be part of it. I'll ride it around town tomorrow and across the way introduce it to my motobuddies at tomorrow evening's Boys Nite--one of my dudes has the same bike but in factory livery.

I think I'm gonna like it here!


Bilgemaster

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Reply #26 on: August 12, 2020, 01:56:36 am
That is a pretty bike, and I've gotta guess that rear tire might be equally at home on the trail or the asphalt.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


AzCal Retred

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Reply #27 on: August 12, 2020, 02:34:33 am
Very Nice Ride! I am very envious of that disc brake.

Your highly desirable 5 speed has better ratios overall than the 4 speed:
4 Speed ratios: 1st = 2.78:1, 2nd = 1.84:1, 3rd = 1.36:1, 4th = 1:1.
5 Speed ratios: 1st = 3.06:1, 2nd = 2.01:1, 3rd = 1.52:1, 4th = 1.21:1, 5th = 1:1.
It still needs lower gearing overall to excel on trails. Right now top end is in the high 60's, you can afford to shave some off of this end.
You very nearly have the overall Trials Gearing spread already, but without the huge gap between 3rd & 4th.
( 4 Sp. only Trials gears: 1st = 3.19:1, 2nd = 1.97:1, 3rd = 1.46:1, 4th = 1:1)
The Pirellis will allow proper "plonking" on trails. A 42 - 44 tooth rear sprocket puts your first gear below the specialized trials gear numbers and will give you a usable 1st & 2nd gear on tight trails. Actual trials use would require much more than that, maybe 50T.

The local dirt bike shop will have a selection of handlebars - go see what feels best for you. Aluminum bars have some shock deadening qualities, something to consider.

I assume the fork part that broke is the alloy axle clamp? These should cure that:
PART No. 92634 ; £10.50 ; CLAMP, FORK SPINDLE, STEEL, EACH

The fork oil may be low or too thin. The Snidal book and elsewhere on this forum have aids to check & cure that. The fork & shock springs are notoriously heavy, and there are softer replacements for both.

The stock footpeg placement on the Bullet is too far forward for stand-up offroad work. The "action" pictures in Hitchcocks accessory section seem to show them about 6"-8" aft of the stock placement, or else the rider's falling off. The Bullet steers very well from a seated position, so it's not mission critical.
PART No. 92519 ; FOOTRESTS, FOLDING TRIALS, PAIR ; £29.50
These universal folding footrests are made specially for competition. They will need to be welded to the frame in the desired position.
Grumbern's Project "Laubfrosch" - the trials hybrid in the Vintage Royal Enfield/Indian section of this forum is astounding - what an artist.

I really like your machine - can't wait to hear how it performs with the real trials tires on it! - ACR -

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ddavidv

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Reply #28 on: August 12, 2020, 03:32:14 am
Regarding the seat, the one I have may be more proper for a trials type bike.



Hitchcocks has them, real leather. Not horrible money. Rigid mount, no springs.
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nonfiction

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Reply #29 on: August 13, 2020, 09:34:51 pm
The new bike's first ride out was a success. Rode it about 10 miles on the freeway, one way, then noodled back home across the small roads in town on the way home. I'm unaccustomed to riding a bike in the right lane, but it felt right on this Bullet, hovering around an indicated 57mph. This bike engages all my moto-jollies without getting me jacked up.

The ignition switch is a bit fiddly--I need to dig in, as it faulted some on the ride. I have to jiggle the key to get the dash lights to come on. Not cool. It got me to my buddy's house, and I got home just fine, but it did cut out a few times and I did have to jiggle the key a few times. Next order of business!

One of my buddies had a handlebar in his stash that, while not quite perfect for my vision, is far less wrong than the bar that came on the bike. Sweet old nicely sun-patina'd formerly black anodized aluminum bar with ~4-1/2" rise and more modest sweep than the outgoing bar. Swapped out with little drama and the bike looks and feels one tiny bit more 'mine'.

We determined the classic headlight nacelle has to go, in favor of the cast trials top yoke, which I'll get on order today. (Speaking of, does anyone have an ebay seller they particularly do or don't recommend using?), and I'll need a headlamp that suits the bill.

I remain very much not in love with the seat. I have some ideas for what's to come in its place. I need to not rush purchases for this thing, but that thing's gotta go. My buddy wants it for his bike, so that's handy.

The tank was sitting snugged a bit too far down on the frame, and was very nearly fouling the valve cover bolts and throttle cable, so I pulled it and ziptied a little saddle of rubber onto the backbone for the tank to rest on. Fixes up the line a bit better, too--so the bottom of the tank is closer to parallel with the cylinder cooling fins.

Off to a great start!


AzCal Retred

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Reply #30 on: August 13, 2020, 10:32:52 pm
Bars are looking good! Glad you have the 5-speed, way more user friendly. The OEM key switch is cak; I have a new one in a box that won't retain the key in "ON".

Seats are tough to get right without riding on one a while. Ddavidv has a good'n, I have the yard sale vinyl version. Mine's a little soft and has a bit of a pocket, so after a couple hours it gets old not being able to slide back a bit. The leather version looks harder & flatter, both attributes which should be an improvement over mine. I'd probably go with ddavidv's leather choice to live with long term. 
Leather = PART No. 91475 ; SINGLE SEAT, TRIALS TYPE, LEATHER, BLACK ; (Brown = PN# 91476) ; £125.00
Vinyl = PART No. Z91363 ; BROWN STUDDED SEAT TO FIT ALL IRON BARREL 350 / 500 MODELS ; £60.00

PART No. 92590 ; TOP YOKE, SINGLE SPEEDO ; £210 ( Speedo only)
PART No. 92591 ; TRIALS FORK TOP YOKE ; £220  ( Plain, no instruments)
PART No. 92513:TOP YOKE, ALLOY, CAFE RACER ; £210  ( Speedo, ammeter, key or voltmeter)
E-bay prices need to be way better than Hitch's. There is more risk involved as you're on the wrong end of a 12,000 mile supply chain with a low-cost bidder. Alan has more interest in keeping you happy.

Is this an AC or DC lighting system? Some LED headlights just need the proper voltage & don't care about AC vs. DC. LED is 0.2 x the draw of incandescent, so less load. You can always add a Radio Shack diode bridge if need be.

Glad you finally got to take the old girl out on a shakedown run, looking forward to more pix -

Best regards - ACR -

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Reply #31 on: August 13, 2020, 11:34:59 pm
Going for a separate alloy yoke will improve the looks no end, but please don't spoil it with a cheap dangly headlamp mount, you could use a set of retro (enclosed) 50s headlamp brackets with it, Hitchcocks sell these as well.



https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Headlight-Bracket-1950s-Bullet/18922

Quote
(Speaking of, does anyone have an ebay seller they particularly do or don't recommend using?), and I'll need a headlamp that suits the bill.

H's are expensive but usually pretty good, plenty of satisfied customers on here. If you're tempted to get stuff direct from India via ebay, quality really can vary enormously. I bought one of the cheaper alloy top yokes with the speedometer hole - junk, the machining was all off center and the threaded holes where the fork stanchions screw in were bored to different depths. Another supplier's product may or may not have been a lot better, depending on the machine shop.

Headlamp choice would probably involve some replica Lucas SSP700 headlamp with the ammeter and headlight switch plate (Indian copies of these are usually fine). The Lucas 5.75" headlamps as used on BSA Victor Specials and some off-road Triumphs would also be quite appropriate, though you'd have to rethink the switch-gear and probably lose the ammeter.

A.






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Reply #32 on: August 14, 2020, 12:03:14 am
Thanks ACR--I really appreciate your contributions here. Following up that Laubfrosch build. Quite inspiring!

On parts, Hitch is more than double the price on the top yoke, before shipping.  That said, I can see even in the ebay listings that quality on these parts is wildly variable. Bar clamp posts on one I looked at went in at very different angles. I'm hoping good seller feedback equates to a good experience. I have also posted a want ad in that section of this forum. I don't need perfect cosmetics but cannot abide poor function.

On seats, I have a few different possibilities in mind, going upward in cost as we move through the list: One being the repro Brit trials pastille like what was used on my inspo bike. I can find that for a bit more than $100. Another is this really tidy scrambler repro seat made for a BSA or Matchless. I like the line of this one. The third possibility I'm turning over in my head is a classic Bates solo type saddle (might eventually get a matching P-pad on the fender for an unlucky passenger). And the final seat that I've been eyeing is the classic Bates style desert model.

I expect I will hard mount whatever seat I end up with, as I do not vibe with the disconnectedness of the sprung saddle thus far.

Ordered a small tail light and an old style handlebar lever for the decompressor today. I'll be dispensing with the plastic switchgear and going minimal with wiring.


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Reply #33 on: August 14, 2020, 12:16:16 am
@Adrian, thanks for this. Conversation is swimming along nicely!

My current most likely headlamp scenario might ruffle some purists' feathers, but I *think* I will likely go for a post-mount Bates type 5.75" lamp, and fab a bracket to mount to the bottom triple. It's maybe a bit more bobber than ISDT, but it's clean and avoids the issue of finding/fabbing suitable ears to mount it.


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Reply #34 on: August 14, 2020, 12:41:48 am
If this is the Scrambler seat you looked at, that'd be my choice. Looks comfortable and roomy enough to move around on. As ddavidv so aptly phrased it, selling for "not horrible money". I'd probably give $160 for it at the end of the second hour aboard Red Oktobr...

https://www.feked.com/bsa-scramble-single-seat-a10ss-spitfire-scrambler-bsa-goldstar-scrambler.html
BSA Single Seat - A10SS Spitfire/Scrambler, Goldstar Scrambler 42-9210  OEM: 42-9210  £119.95 ( nominally $160 USD )

A post mounted light would do the trick. These things are always a work in progress anyway. Going to minimal electrics takes some planning - I have a preliminary wiring diagram if you're interested, give you some ideas anyway.




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Reply #35 on: August 14, 2020, 02:55:47 am
@ACR, thanks for the offer of the wiring diagram. I'll certainly take you up on that once I have headlight, taillight and top yoke in hand. Current plan calls for stripping just about everything electric: no starter motor, no turn signals, just horn (button on bar), hi/low beam (toggle on lamp housing), tail and brake lights. Deleting and/or hiding as many of the electrical bits as possible to clean the look up.


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Reply #36 on: August 14, 2020, 06:48:14 am
Here you go - gives you a place to start. Switch numbers are Hitchcocks part numbers. 
Multiple fuses are used to isolate circuits so "stoopid stuff" doesn't inconveniently stop the fun times.
All are automotive ATK or ATO type, 6 fuse block from NAPA for $10 - $15 bucks.
Spare slots can carry extra fuses.
- ACR -
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Reply #37 on: August 14, 2020, 11:49:50 am
"indicated 57 mph"
Indian built speedos are crap. Mine is nearly 10 mph off at 60. I find the optimism charming and inspiring.
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Reply #38 on: August 14, 2020, 12:34:34 pm
@Adrian, thanks for this. Conversation is swimming along nicely!

My current most likely headlamp scenario might ruffle some purists' feathers, but I *think* I will likely go for a post-mount Bates type 5.75" lamp, and fab a bracket to mount to the bottom triple. It's maybe a bit more bobber than ISDT, but it's clean and avoids the issue of finding/fabbing suitable ears to mount it.

If you're thinking along those lines, maybe put together more of a street tracker? Apologies for the cr*p photo, but you could make a neat job of that. H's might even have a few more Fury top yokes left, though the alloy ones will have the thread for the normal Bullet fork stanchions.



The fork shrouds are just cut from 1.75" steel exhaust pipe tubing with RE Interceptor chrome trims to locate them at the top. I probably had a great-great grandmother who was scandalized by the sight of a bare piano leg somewhere.  ;D

I managed to find one of these to fit the lamp, I think it was meant for a Triumph and needed a little work elongating the mounting hole to line up with the RE bottom yoke.



A.
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Reply #39 on: August 15, 2020, 02:45:05 am
Adrian II, that Fury top yoke sure is spicy. First I saw of that was in grumbern's trials build thread. Heavens it's a neat looking part.

I'm pretty stuck on the aluminum trials job, but I think the Bates light will look good with it (you have the right colorway here, black bucket/chrome ring).

I just ordered a seat, the topmost Wassell trials model from my list above. It was the cheapest, plus it fits the vibe I'm trying to build into this bike. Was afraid the bigger Feked/BSA one would be too big, visually, where I'm seeking a light and purposeful look.

Tires came in, so that'll be tomorrow, and a few other bits are on their way as well.


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Reply #40 on: August 15, 2020, 02:18:49 pm
The alloy top yoke and speedo cup pretty much does the same thing in a slightly more streamlined fashion (there's also one sitting in the garage ready for my wife's Bullet project bike), I just fancied using something a bit different.

A.
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Reply #41 on: August 17, 2020, 10:53:57 pm
I just noticed this locally on CL :

https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/mpo/d/sherwood-royal-enfield-scrambler-trials/7179220648.html

In case anyone else wants to build a Trails type RE.

David Graves


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Reply #42 on: September 16, 2020, 11:24:34 pm
Okay, I'm gearing up (heh) to pull the ES gubbins out of this little bike and pretty up the primary cases (just as soon as I can get my parts orders all firmed up). It is my understanding that I can either buy a new engine gear or chop the starter drive gear off the existing one.

My question is, I guess, is that three-up gear that's in there now one of the things that blows up when the sprag frags? If so I'll hang onto it to pass on to a sprag-frag victim, and plump for a new engine gear, £25 plus shipping from Hitch. If not, I'll just chop that sucker up on my buddy's lathe.

Or, maybe my understanding is skew on this and y'all can set me straight. Thanks for your thoughts either way.


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Reply #43 on: September 17, 2020, 01:26:50 pm
Just remove the unneeded gear.
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Reply #44 on: October 16, 2020, 02:59:23 am
Nonfiction! How goes the battle? Starter de-fanged? What kind of seat did you end up with? What rear sprocket did you settle on, and how is it working on the trails? Are those 320 mm shocks doing the deed? New trials top yoke fitted up & sorted? Enquiring minds need to know... ;D - ACR -
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Reply #45 on: October 16, 2020, 07:06:39 pm
AzCal! Thank you for the nudge.

I have been having trouble sourcing parts, specifically the chain cases, from India (via Ebay)--it seems the virus has slowed people down quite a bit. They're probably out there, but I'm trying to be sure I get good ones, and the folks I'm talking to, in spite of the fact they have the parts listed for sale, are saying, please be patient, sir!

My wife fell in love with the headlight nacelle on my bike, so for now I'll be holding off on buying the trials top yoke, even though I've already bought the Bates headlight to go with it. I'll probably polish the nacelle to match the 0000 steel wool finish on the rest of the tins.

I did fit a seat I like, and twiddle the angle of the rear fender stay, and the bike's lines are coming into shape very nicely. This weekend I'm planning on a late-season high country outing that will require gearing down (but hopefully not be too picky about ground clearance!), so I'll be trying out the big 50t rear sprocket, along with a new chain. Assuming things go to plan I will post some pictures.

Had the bike on a hundred mile* dirt road romp a couple weekends ago. It comports itself really well in the rough. I find the long rear shock a bit softer than I like on the road (it IS a trials bike after all), but it really keeps the tire connected to the ground well. On the street, the bike feels like a BMX bike--makes me want to hop curbs and cut across people's lawns. I'm always grinning when I ride it.

(*I carried a couple liters of extra gasoline in an OJ container in my Camelbak. Needed it! Fun ride, too, the VME's (Vintage Motorcycle Enthusiasts') annual Bonehead Enduro, a kind of poker run type scavenger hunt thing in the hills on the west slope of the Cascades. Logging roads and creek beds. Socially distant Moto-hangouting. Good stuff.)

For now, here's an ugly picture of a couple pretty bikes, not from the Bonehead...


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Reply #46 on: October 16, 2020, 09:37:42 pm
Sounds like you're having a great time in the Cascades! Glad to hear the off-road manners are good - I was worried it would be too twitchy, but sounds like it's working. Your VME group is a real find!
The shocks soft spring rate sounds like the Feked site's listings for their trials shocks. I'm thinking that's a good compromise to make.
I'm interested to hear how the 50T works out. I know my Bullet 18/38 is ridiculously too high for tight trail. You still should be good for 45-50 in 4th, and that'll get you home.
Polishing up the casquette sounds like a very Grumbernesq, should be quite striking!
How about a skid-plate - I didn't see one in the picture. Lots of exposed pricy guts down there...?
Your primary cases are for the electric start engine, so I believe there's some surgery required to retrofit. I think the engine studs are in a different location on the KS cases. Adrian has done this routinely, but it's a process. H's has inner & outer KS cases for about $230ish USD, plus shipping, and most importantly YOU KNOW they'll be dimensionally correct... :o

I after seeing how much fun you're having, I believe I'll "trail-out" my Green Bullet. It has a hinky shifter bellcrank from some "mekanikin" by a PO, so whilst I have the transmission out I'm planning on adding the Hitchcocks Trials 2-gear set. That and the sprocket conversion will get me a long way towards a plonkable trail bike. The cone-shaped passenger peg mounts look about right for a second set of plonking pegs. I'll leave the 4 gallon tank on, as I can't abide running out of fuel. The plain Trials top yoke and a 21" front hoop and voila, an ISDT winner! ;D

Thanks for the update, & post some more pix - we all need to see more success stories! - ACR -
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Reply #47 on: October 16, 2020, 10:01:34 pm
The shock spring is 75#. I weigh 245#. Fairly convinced I got the right rate, per Matt at Speed & Sport. 

There is a vestigial steel skid plate under the sump to keep me from tearing off the family of drain plugs down there--that's a stock part, right?Anyhow, I DO plan on fabbing up something a bit more comprehensive, at least to cover the oil pump areas and that vulnerable chin of the primary.

Footpegs REALLY want to come back some for off-road. Trials guys seem to like them about 8" back from stock (though maybe not quite as high as the pillion mounts), but I think I can get them back 2-3" for a good compromise position and still not foul the kickstarter. I want to be able to haul my tired carcass to the standing position easily, but I don't want to cruise around all the time with my heels up my bum either.

I might spring for the Hitchcocks chain cases... likely after Christmas if so, because budget. It's about 2.5x the cost of getting them from India (and about 0.25x the risk of being stuck with faulty or wrong parts, I reckon).

Super curious just how slow the 50t will make the bike go. Likely it will get swapped on for dirt days along with the extra length of 530 chain, then back off for city duty.

Really hoping I have luck getting this pup to the woods this Sunday.


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Reply #48 on: October 16, 2020, 11:40:48 pm
I used the stock passenger pegs to get a feel for standing position. They are mounted on a "Z" bar looking item with a taper & 1/2" bolt to secure them to the frame lug. It takes a lot of rearward distance to get your feet in a good position for standing. I've seen some pix of old school trials Enfields using these for actual competition. I plan on leaving the front pegs untouched and adding the rears for standing. That lug is very robust, so no strength concerns; maybe it was intended for sidehack attachment...? I'll just modify the bolt-on tapered lug to accomodate a proper metal peg. Not too worried about rear brake or shifting mods, as compression braking is good on these and normal practice is to pick a gear in a tough section & ride it out. Quick shifts on the 4 speed are just an exercise in hope. Anyway, it's for trail use, not competition. The side boxes definitely need to go, even fooling around on my driveway they were digging in to my legs.

About your exhaust - do you ever find it cooking your leg when standing? I like your longer "Woodsman" exhaust style, but I think I'll need to go with the tucked-inside-the-frame trials model. With more rearset pegs it could get tight there.

Thanks for the heads-up on spring rate! None of my stock machines have a skid plate - must have come with the trials kit? I've seen aluminum ones, but I think I'll just use a flat-point steel shovel - go real old school. Steel slides on rock, aluminum is "stickier". Weight isn't a real concern on a 1940's design...I think Enfield mostly used the lighter, smaller unitized 250 motor for serious factory trials efforts. ;)  - ACR -
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Reply #49 on: October 17, 2020, 12:08:51 am
The silencer is tucked in pretty tight. There's a mark on it from where it baked some color out of my jeans one wet day, but I have gotten burnt exactly once, from the first day I had the bike; was wearing shorts dinking around in my parking lot.

If I set the pegs back I might revise my evaluation, or at least fit a shield. I'd love to see a picture of the inside-the-frame exhaust you refer to.

One thing to note: I have less than 1/4" clearance on either side of the tire; the swingarm is pretty tight. This is with the axle pulled pretty far back on the snail adjusters. I lucked out that the wheel was built so nicely centered. If I were building it fresh I'd consider cutting and welding a plate to clearance the inside of the swingarm to make more clearance. So far no problems though.

I cannot WAIT to get my side box (and battery and breather remnants) off this thing. Love the coal shovel baseplate--crossed my mind as well. I'll likely go aluminum, just because, well, it fits the color scheme...


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Reply #50 on: October 17, 2020, 06:51:25 am
I was thinking specifically of the H's "https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/High-Level-Exhaust-System/20108"; everything stays within the frame loop. I have seen trials pipes that snake behind this loop and exhaust farther back, but they have that "one off" Grumbern look to me. If the exhaust outlet tended to blast your calf, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to cut it & rotate it down.

This jewel "https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/rear-suspension/21138" for about $350 USD would allow "more meat"...maybe need to buy more lottery tickets? ;D

And Send More Pics!! Any of your 100 miler?  - ACR -
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Reply #51 on: October 17, 2020, 06:18:55 pm
ACR, that first exhaust you've linked is the one I have mounted. I think the muffler's outboard edge is a hair wider than 1" beyond the outer edge of the frame rail it's mounted under. The headpipe could be shortened as much as 3", which I think would enable one to tuck the silencer in tighter yet if desired.

Here's the sole picture I took on the ride. My bike is in the background. SL350 sunk in a sasquatch bed or something. Greeves/XL185 in nearground. Good times in the temperate rainforest.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 06:28:31 pm by nonfiction »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #52 on: October 17, 2020, 08:54:55 pm
Looks like a great group! I don't see anyone out there that doesn't know about maintenance. I'm sure you had good fun with the rider of the SL175 buried to the axles. I took a ribbing when I managed to fall off the trail & 20' down a bank on my 300 pound Rokon. Lucky for me one of my pals carried a deer hoist! Thanks for the photo & enjoy your group rides, that's a very special thing to have. - ACR -
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Reply #53 on: October 18, 2020, 11:43:10 pm
Today I inadvertently "trail rode" my painfully stock I.B. down a Forest Service jeep trail parallel to a powerline access rode. The (up to then pleasant) FS road made an abrupt downhill left hander into a 45 degree talcum silt rutted descent. Too late to stop, I rode it down about 30 feet before the front wheel shod with a K70 at about 30 PSI washed out. Laying under the bike in a puddle of dust ( it's California...), I assessed. #1 - Shut off the engine. #2 - get left leg free, as fuel from the tank cap was dripping on me. #3 - stand the whole sorry mess up in the middle of the hillside, find neutral, horse it around until it was pointed somewhat down hill, find neutral, restart motor, cross fingers.

Two unsuccessful attempts to climb back up this silty dropoff later, I reassessed. The parallel Powerline road was NOT covered with power-sucking silt, just helmet sized rocks. I traversed the burned-over 30 yards across to it on the flattest route I could see. From another flat spot on the power line road I attempted a climb. Not enough motor - feels like second gear? Nope, I was in first. Back down. Attempt #2 saw a faster start, as I knew this was going to be all about momentum. Up we go, the Duro HF308 hooking up well on the hard dirt, steering around the boulders, standing up on the too-forward pegs - 1/2 way, still good - 3/4 upslope, the motor is grunting but still pulling - YES! The top of the hill presents itself. A reprieve for the Geez!

The moral of this story is that I see more clearly why the big twins evaporated from desert racing. The courses got more "technical",  it became just too rough for that equipment to successfully compete. Two strokes, with their light weight and superior horsepower and more user-friendly gearboxes put the spike in the coffin. The Bullet needs significantly lower gearing, and obviously more appropriate tires, to function as a trail bike. Picking up a near 400 pound machine on a loose hillside and not being able to start it in gear gives the competition riding a 250 pound machine a real advantage. To its credit, that venerable ancient tractor motor did drag my carcass up a near 25 degree slope and blithely steer around the boulders while doing it. A 50T rear sprocket and at least some 4" wide trials tires would have helped considerably. I'll henceforth stick to tarmac & flat hard dirt on the Red bike, and wait on the fire roads until the Green machine is properly kitted! - ACR -

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Reply #54 on: October 19, 2020, 11:34:28 am
Glad you and the bike coped with the ordeal.

Quote
I have seen trials pipes that snake behind this loop and exhaust farther back, but they have that "one off" Grumbern look to me.

Did you meant the Indian Woodsman exhaust? Originally a factory fitment on that model, though similar exhausts were common on British pre-war roadsters.

http://re-indian.com/56catalogue.html

Looks the business for a street scrambler, but for actual off-roading the trails exhaust tucked out of harm's way might be better. Wasn't there some requirement in parts of the US for trail bikes to be fitted with spark-arrester exhausts?

A.

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Reply #55 on: October 19, 2020, 05:29:58 pm
No - more like these, where the pipe gets a bit snakier. I thought "Lampy's" & "19 trials 1954" were good efforts. It takes a bit of welding finesse to achieve a nice install; most of my welding greatly benefits from a grinder & paint! I have a cracked rib as a result of my "learning experience", a small price to pay as compared to many other outcomes. A bit of codeine and a hiking stick are doing the trick for now, I'll be right as rain in a couple weeks. The trick is to actually learn from the experience, and pain is a great incentivizer... ;D

Info on approved USFS spark arrestors:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/advcat.asp?CategoryID=SUPERTRAPPSA
https://supertrapp.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=forest+service+approved
https://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/03511307/03511307.htm
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Reply #56 on: October 19, 2020, 06:37:01 pm
I think you'll find it is the same exhaust as the Hitchcocks' trials for the first three, but look at the frames on those bikes, they're not Indian built Bullet frames but Crusader frames from the Redditch unit construction 250 bikes, different shape and a bit smaller to boot, though fitting a Bullet engine and gearbox can be and often is done for building trials bikes, Grumbern's Project "Laubfrosch" is another example.

A.
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Reply #57 on: October 19, 2020, 09:21:42 pm
Adrian - are these trials machines built using the 250 frame mainly to save weight, or is the geometry more suitable? About 1/2 of the forks from the conversions I've seen use an inline axle which affects trail. Are we looking at shortening the wheelbase as a rationale? I assume the 250 is shorter...? The hubs are different from the Bullet, so I'm guessing they are 250 units too. With a pre-Unit machine there will inherently be more weight in the powerplant, so the Unit 250/350 should have been a real boon to builders...yes?  - ACR -
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 10:04:37 pm by AzCal Retred »
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Reply #58 on: October 20, 2020, 01:32:18 pm
I think the Crusader frames are a fairly easily obtainable item (at least in the UK) which can form at least a classic rolling chassis for using an Indian Bullet engine and gearbox in pre-65 trials. That said there was also quite a Trifield cult over here too, involving the unit 350 or 500 Triumph engines fitted into Crusader frames. Unity Equipe still sells the Converta engine plates, just add your own oil tank.

The (nearly) in-line front fork axles were needed when Redditch brought in 17" wheels, the steering geometry is off if you fit a 17" wheel in the standard offset forks. RE India had problems (or some owners did) with the early C5 EFI Bullets using 18" wheels with the usual offset, 19" wheels were eventually re-introduced, and the C5s got in-line axle forks.

The Crusader frame is a scaled-down version of the later Bullet/Twin frame, so with less steel used, I guess there will be a weight (and slight length) saving.

A.
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #59 on: October 20, 2020, 05:28:24 pm
Adrian - thanks for the info! - ACR -
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #60 on: October 20, 2020, 10:44:04 pm
Nonfiction - here's a pic of an Arial pre-unit engine trials machine ridden by a "full size" rider. Note how far back the riders feet are. Taken at an American Historic Racing Motorcycle Association’s (AHRMA) annual vintage trials competition. I think the pre-unit machine powerplant is so long you need to mount the footpegs pretty far back to get proper "center of mass"  balance, more so than for one with unit construction. At 245 pounds, you probably have some "reach" to you. I believe the conical passenger peg mount will be a good starting point. I'm thinking there's no good reason to remove the front pegs or move the controls for trail use. Just use the "passenger" pegs for tricky stand-up sections, the fronts for comfort.

I believe the crusader frame conversions made for shorter, lighter & more maneuverable machines, especially using the Crusader Unit Construction motor. They'd have been rapidly outpaced by the 2-cycle Ossa's, Bultacos, Dots, Greeves, etc. of the time. Films from the 60's show rougher, tighter courses than films from earlier years. I can tell you that it's no fun to wrestle your motorcycle thru a tough section instead of riding it! - ACR -

https://motoventures.com/our-motorcycle-riding-school/photo-gallery/vintage-trials-motorcycle/
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Reply #61 on: October 20, 2020, 11:15:34 pm
The ultimate Ariel 4 stroke single trials bike was Sammy Miller's GOV 132. There's a replica in his museum just a few miles from here.

A.
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Reply #62 on: October 21, 2020, 06:25:28 pm
See the big dent in the front rim? Now there's a working machine!
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


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Reply #63 on: October 21, 2020, 07:18:01 pm
In the wayback, my pal had some Brit-sourced aluminum gas weld rod. I had a badly cracked front alloy rim. With tyre off, we patiently heated up the rim, waiting for the temp to allow for the rod to work. As we started in "welding" the crack, the entire alloy rim collapsed & "potato chipped" into a useless, old taco-shell looking configuration. Note to self - remove spoke tension radial stress BEFORE applying heat to a rim...!  ;D  - ACR -
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Reply #64 on: October 21, 2020, 07:52:38 pm
Argh! The forum ate my post.

I noticed he had leading-axle forks flipped backward, am I seeing that right?. Wondered about that, or else fitting UCE inline-axle forks as a way to tighten the steering a bit on my bike. However, at the moment I don't see a single reason to rethink the front suspension.

I had a GREAT shakedown ride in the mountains this weekend. A bit scrambly at work right now so I don't have time to post all the details. But the TL:DR version: I trucked the bike over the Cascades to a spot I've long loved above Rosly, WA, and plonked this little street bike up Fortune Creek Trail, a pretty gnarly jeep road (stock SUVs can make it, but only with skilled drivers--not single track gnar, but no cakewalk). 32 miles out and back. Tops out around 5800' and there was some two-day-old snow on the ground.

The 50 tooth sprocket against a stock countershaft was the perfect ratio for this trail. I'll want to go lower for the next iteration, where I plan to tackle real single track, but that will be after the shifting is switched to the right and the center stand is gone and the battery and starter are all sitting in a Rubbermaid tub in my storage.

I love this bike! It was PERFECTLY suited to this road. The low CG and easy power just made it SO fun to get up that trail. I was just grinning my ass off all day. I rode away from my buddy on a KDX220 (a real dirt bike) really easily. I'm a bit better rider, but not THAT much better. SO HAPPY with the way this thing goes up the road. I didn't bottom the suspension or clonk the case or snag on anything... well except one thing that I didn't even notice until a stop--at some point something grabbed the rear brake lever and pulled it out about 4". I just pushed it back in (soft!) and happily remembered I have a new one back home that'll mount on the proper side. Also noticed that one of my coil mount bolts fell out.

I did run into some electrical problems. Bike wouldn't start on the day of departure. Traced it to a plug (Bosch, India), which the proper NGK replacement solved. But the morning following the trail ride, Monday, I set out from camp to ride down the valley to get cell reception to check on work. The ride started with a 40' wide, foot-deep creed ford, and I took it real slow.

About ten miles down the road, the bike just lost spark. My first thought was, oh shit, there went my other coil bolt, but it was there, unmoved since yesterday. Ammeter wouldn't dip when the points made contact, nothing. Took the points cover off, was a bit wet inside. WD40, dried it off, still no love. And that's the state it sits in now.

I'll be rewiring the bike anyhow, as I plan to fit a Boyer Bransden Power Box (or equivalent) to ditch the battery and reg/rect gubbins, so it'll probably stay that way for a minute, until I get some shop time.

All in all, I consider Mission: Proof of Concept to be a SUCCESS!

ACR: I think I will try some folding pegs aft in the pillion brackets, for more comfortable standing. My thighs recall that ride even better than my brain right now.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 08:19:04 pm by nonfiction »


nonfiction

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Reply #65 on: October 21, 2020, 07:57:03 pm
Here are a few pictures (been having trouble loading them from here).

Hey, success!

(I guess I didn't photograph the rougher parts of the trail--too busy romping up em! There IS some GoPro footage of the ride that I likely will share at some point.)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 08:25:08 pm by nonfiction »


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Reply #66 on: October 21, 2020, 08:39:17 pm
Glad the Bullet is living up to your expectations.  :)

There's some choice on the battery eliminator front. The reg/rectifier box with built-in capacitor is sold by various suppliers, I think the BB is one of the more expensive. My preference would be to fit a normal single-phase reg/rectifier (prices have come down to the point where they're almost consumables) and a separate capacitor, cheaper to replace the individual parts if one fails.

Ideally you'd fit a magneto for your sparks, the Lucas SR1 still bolts right onto the back of the timing chest on later Indian iron barrel Bullets just like on a late 50's Redditch Bullet. Getting the correct auto advance unit for it might to a bit of hunting around, but if you can't find one I know of two people who have successfully run iron barrel Bullets on fixed advance magnetos, you just have to learn the starting drill to avoid ankle injury!  :o ;D

A magneto would add a little weight, but tif you're still planning to ditch the starter motor that will compensate. As has already been mentioned, converting the gearbox to right-foot shift (it was designed that way) will also let you fit a lump-free inner primary transmission case. More weight saved.

A.
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nonfiction

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Reply #67 on: October 21, 2020, 08:47:08 pm
Adrian, What would a mag do for me that the stator and fancy box wouldn't? I'm hoping to simplify, and not looking to build a fetish object, but I'm also absolutely open to learning here...

If anyone has discussed the battery elimination strategies on this board (with parts recommendations) I'd be grateful to see the links. Haven't yet done exhaustive research.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #68 on: October 21, 2020, 10:49:35 pm
Nonfiction - If you even had just kept up with a KDX220 I'd be impressed, let alone lead the mob on a technical trail...well done sir!

The points distributor looks a weak spot for water entry. In olden times folks would seal the cover, tap in a tube fitting, then run a tube from the points cavity to the airbox, so the case cooling during water crossings didn't suck water in, just air. Even a tube up under the seat area with maybe some foam slipped over the end to keep out chunks would work. If you aren't getting any current draw when the points close, either the coil is open circuit, the wirings gone open circuit, or the point surfaces are not conducting from grit or grease on their surface. There isn't a secret fuse in that circuit, right?

Your spark coil may be getting hinky, as both lack-of-spark events have it as a common factor. H's carry at least 3 kinds, and I used an MSD "Blaster SS" (I'm sure I picked up 8 BHP from the name alone... ;D) coil with about 4 ohms of ballast resistors on my Green machine. The capacitor is mounted at the coil too, to keep heat sensitive bits away from engine heat and "clear out" the distributor leaving just the points. Electrically all the same.

I'm with you on the magneto mod. Easier to waterproof solid state electronics, and you don't have any high RPM spark needs anyway. I haven't yet found an all-stator mounted sparking system except for a Boyer Bransden "race" unit that according to the parts distributor is very voltage sensitive, cooking at +14 VDC. The normal route is a "Points Eliminator" system, which still needs the distributor to keep out water. BUT you could then just spray LPS or some such inside the distributor and forget about it. This might work:
https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/ignition/2593
PART No. 145770 ; £85.80 ; ELECTRONIC IGNITION (EUREKA)

Thanks for the performance feedback on the 50T rear, sounds like a great place to start for me. The mid-ride rebending of the brake lever is a testimony for mild steel foot levers. Aluminum bits do not like to be straightened, especially without a torch. A lot to be said for practicality vs. weight savings. Once you get the peg placement sorted, MAYBE you might move foot controls. I plan of leaving the OEM footrests alone myself and using the rearmount pegs for technical trail.

Sounds like maybe the small skid plate is enough for the center cases, possibly add a couple 1/2" round tube bolt-on "bash bars" to protect the oil pump housing & Primary case.

Thanks for the write up and great pictures. What a fantastic riding area to have! - ACR -

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nonfiction

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Reply #69 on: October 21, 2020, 11:02:17 pm
ACR, one note I lost when my original post got eaten: With the 50t rear sprocket, the chain rides along the top of the brake crossover pivot. Not much friction, but some noise. I'll hose clamp a stick of PVC on there or something until such time as I delete that mess. Also, a larger sprocket would (will) foul the stock chain guard, on my bike.

I like that tube-from-the-distributor idea. The little hole in the plastic cap where the wire comes out sure isn't doing many favors to the water resistance--I was figuring on gobbing it up with some silicone, but I might add this idea into the mix.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #70 on: October 22, 2020, 01:54:01 am
NF - the funky plastic cap is probably as good a place as any for a vent tube.
I looked at my chain guard, I'm thinking a simple 1 bolt attachment for a piece of "L" shaped plastic over the top of the sprocket is good enough, or just skip it entirely on a geared-down trail bike.
The right side shift conversion takes some deliberate training exercises to mentally swap over. I've been doing it a few months now and it still isn't as smooth as I'd like. If you're still under 55, It should be easier for you. Lots of casual trail riding helps make the reflexes full-auto. You already have the brake lever, but here's the whole mess:
PART No. 90142 ; £195.00 ; 5 SPEED CONVERSION, LEFT TO RIGHT CHANGE WITH BRAKE, 1 DOWN 4 UP
The 1-down shifter guts may ultimately be easier unless you have a fleet of Britbikes to adapt to. Years of Japanese transmission operation build reflexes tough to overcome.

Thanks again for sharing your hardware experiences here & those great ride pix! - ACR -

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Reply #71 on: October 22, 2020, 02:07:21 am
ACR--yeah, I got the 1d4u gearbox kit. I'm so curious how it'll be; I've ridden a lot of bikes, but I don't think I've ever ridden one that shifts on the right.

I neglected to say one thing I'm happy about: With the 50t sprocket, it's still pretty fine on the street. Liked to cruise at almost-touching 60 with the 38t; now it likes to cruise at almost-touching 50mph. Totally workable for around town. Won't get changed back unless I know I'm doing a trip with lots of highway travel. Like that!


AzCal Retred

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Reply #72 on: October 22, 2020, 03:02:34 am
Some ISDT footage from Germany, 1969. Looks a lot like YOUR turf... ;)


International Six Days' Trial 1969 Garmisch Partenkirchen 16/09/1969
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jt1IwTU7YM
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Reply #73 on: October 22, 2020, 01:24:16 pm
My 350 Bullet Electra has TCI ignition. The magneto rotor, stator and trigger sensor are all in the primary chain case. The control box is encapsulated and on the frame under the seat. I could see that the primary chain case breather was its Achilles heel. If water gets into the chain case it could stop the bike dead and obviously over time also cause permanent damage. Running a bike through water causes rapid cooling of the chain case, resulting in a pressure drop which can draw in water.

The breather pipe had a small split right where it enters the case. I removed it and replaced it with good quality rubber hose and ran it right up to top of the frame under the fuel tank. I fitted a small, sintered cone type axle breather to keep the pipe inlet clear of debris.

I’m hoping that now it’s as weatherproof as reasonably possible.
Paul W.


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Reply #74 on: October 22, 2020, 01:52:26 pm
This one will have the normal 4 wire alternator for a late points ignition Indian iron barel Bullet, I can't remember if these have a chain case breather or not. The left-foot gear change has a rudimentary seal where the shaft passes thought the outer casing, I don't know how effective it would be under the conditions you describe.

Quote
If anyone has discussed the battery elimination strategies on this board (with parts recommendations) I'd be grateful to see the links. Haven't yet done exhaustive research.

You have a number of options.

The traditional magneto has the advantage of being totally independent of anything happening elsewhere on the bike's electrical system. With a Lucas SR1, maintenance is pretty much down to occasional cleaning and adjusting points, same as the stock iron barrel Bullet. There are more modern BTH CDI versions which are just about maintenance-free, two of my Bullet roadsters have them, but there's a big price tag on these. I can provide a link if you're into spending the $$$.

A more economical route is to replace your battery with a capacitor. So long as your alternator is healthy it will pump out enough power to light the fires at kick-over speeds, and after that you're away. You could probably source something like this locally.

https://www.rexs-speedshop.com/product/retro-extra-high-capacity-motorcycle-battery-eliminator/

The Boyer Power Box is simply a reg/rectifier unit with a capacitor built-in. Low engine speeds won't produce so much lighting output and will cause flicker at lower revs, but with the headlight already powered by AC straight from the alternator and not via the battery and charging system, you should be used to that.

This sort of system is fine with the stock points ignition, but beware if you convert to electronic (TCI) ignition as not all the systems available will cope well with the lower output from the alternator at kick-over speeds, starting can be harder or more prone to kick-backs. Pazon ignitions claim to be a better choice in this respect.

http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/sure-fire-british-single-12volt.html

http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/enfield-bullet

Also the Eureka ignition AzCal mentions still relies on the mechanical advance and retard behind the points plate, so it could be worth investigating, as there will be no risk of lower voltage causing the thing to go full-advance! The Boyer Bransden analog Mk3 ignition was notorious for this.

That's TCI, what about CDI?

There are some crankshaft-mounted CDI ignitions available for the Bullet which replace the alternator completely. They are self-contained, so no battery. The PVL system has no lighting coils, however, so you would want something like the STK-100D-DC from Electrex World in the UK. Not cheap (still cheaper than a new electronic BTH magneto!), and the down side is than on this particular kit the output from the lighting coils isn't a whole lot compared to the stock alternator, so you might also be looking at replacing all the non-headlamp lighting with LEDS and fitting a lower wattage H4 bulb in the headlamp, eg a 36/36W.

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-100D.html

My guess is that if you already have a good alternator and reg/rectifier on there, you'll go for the capacitor. I have successfully run old BSA singles with one instead of a battery.

A.
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Reply #75 on: October 22, 2020, 09:31:48 pm
Thanks Adrian. What I'm really looking for is the simplest, most reliable (and heck, while we're at it, the least expensive) path to ditching the battery and the regulator/rectifier system.

My goals are to save weight (that huge battery mainly) and clean up the look of the bike by deleting or hiding components.

The integrated reg/rec+capacitor solution is attractive to me for this reason. I figure I'll keep on using points, in keeping with the spirit of the beast. I know the Boyer Power Box, but not the alternatives.

I am also aware that I could use a capacitor in conjunction with the existing regulator rectifier*. This is appealing because I can get a capacitor for a lot less cost than the full-meal-deal box. However, I'd have to find a good place to stow the components. There's some room under the tank, but not a lot of airflow there, and I know these parts want at least some.

All this work will likely take place amidst a more-or-less complete rewire of the bike in coming months, as I want to know that every wire in the system is a good one, connected securely and insulated against friction, vibration, moisture, etc. to the degree practical.

Is there some already-played-out discussion on this board of the various solutions to this problem?

(* Noob question: Why are there two 'regulator rectifier' looking blocks on my bike?)


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Reply #76 on: October 23, 2020, 12:08:45 am
Regarding mufflers. I like the looks of the steel Hitchcock's one (I think it's probably of well-sourced Indian manufacture. It's heavy and loud, and has no provision for a spark arrestor, which is needed to be legal on trails stateside. I have a plan to install one in mine, but I also considered having one made with the provision in place.

There's an eBay seller called Silverback Manufacturing--I think it's an England-based fab shop too (linking to their website here)--that has some great looking alloy silencers: http://www.silverbackmanufacturing.co.uk/classictrials.html

At this point I won't do anything with Mr. Silverback, but he sure does make nice looking parts.

ACR: I almost missed your tale of accidental off-roading. Glad you came through it okay. I look forward to seeing your green bike transformed into the machine that will get you out of that situation as easily as the red one got you into it.


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Reply #77 on: October 23, 2020, 01:34:31 am
I’ve run a Hunt Mag with a Boyer Box and no battery for well over the last decade....I’m good & no problems!


AzCal Retred

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Reply #78 on: October 23, 2020, 01:36:16 am
NF - seeing your locked-up front wheel disappear downhill, sliding inexorably into a mystery trench full of light brown talcum silt is NOT a confidence inspiring feeling...  :o
I certainly get a real charge out of how much fun you're having with your old dinosaur on the trail - really enjoyed the pictures. What a nice group to ride with.

On another tack, this is a pretty cool website that allows us to pick the brains of the resident geniuses. What an amazing resource! - ACR -
 
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Reply #79 on: October 23, 2020, 02:04:57 am
In answer to the noob question, on some Bullets the regulator and rectifier are two separate components in very similar alloy casings, in most modern bikes they're a single lump. If you're going battery-less these and the alternator have to be good because (of courss) there's no battery for you to limp home on. Hence the appeal of the magneto, but I note that's not where you're at.

There is also a separate AC regulator somewhere on your bike to control the alternator output to the headlamp on post '99 iron barrels, that's usually a black encapsulated component, fairly small. Other electrical bits mounted somewhere on the bike will be the starter and turn signal relays.

Your own wiring job shouldn't be too traumatic. Losing the battery and electric start makes life simpler, and if there's no battery to charge it makes things simpler still, you can lose the ammeter too, and those pesky warning lights. I assume you want to keep the turn signals? Convert them as well as the stop/tail light and the speedometer bulb to LED replacements. You can leave the headlight as AC powered, it won't affect the rest of the electrics. No battery also means no parking light. Now of course if you could be talked into getting a magneto that makes the wiring even simpler.

If you look back in the forum archives there are some much simplified 12V wiring diagrams for the Bullet, make sure you use one with the four wire alternator. For my wiring jobs I use this sort of thing,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-CORE-AUTO-CABLE-1-0mm-16-5-AMP-CAR-WIRE-3-METRES-MULTICORE-AUTOMOTIVE-3M/251125011570



With crimp and solder connectors/terminals.

For the muffler you might do better with the Woodsman pipe and a SuperTrapp muffler. As I posted elsewhere the SuperTrapp are fiendishly expensive for us, but at least you only have to pay US post and not international shipping and customs.

A.
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Paul W

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Reply #80 on: October 23, 2020, 07:16:28 pm
I was put off “Supertrapp” exhausts by the rather scathing written word of David Vizard, a respected English engine tuner who moved to the USA.
Paul W.


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Reply #81 on: October 23, 2020, 07:21:37 pm
Yeah, having had a couple, I have no love for Supertrapps. Ugly, loud and hard to tune. And the sound sprays everywhere. And they melt stuff. Well, on plastic bikes at least.

At the moment, apart from the need to fit a spark arrestor and a nicer looking heat shield, I am not feeling like my exhaust is one of the many things that need addressing on this bike.

Along with that fuel tank, the exhaust I have is, for me, one of the primary charms of this bike as it sits. For the last year (since well before I had this bike) I've had an inspiration shot of a Sportster with the tank and a pair of these silencers mounted as the lock screen on my phone. Me likey.

Plus, I'm not inclined to stick a heavier, longer pipe on the back, partly because I expect I'll want to flop some soft bags over the back end next year for some old-skool moto-camping, and this shorty will stay out of the way for that.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 08:16:33 pm by nonfiction »


nonfiction

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Reply #82 on: October 23, 2020, 08:20:44 pm
Additionally: As a pretty new member here, I want to echo a couple other posters' sentiments.

I have been REALLY impressed, and very grateful for the opportunity to pick y'all's brains in such a pleasant, smart, respectful forum. Thanks to all who're contributing to this and the dozens of other ongoing conversations at any given moment.

Huge resource, especially in this weird isolating time.


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Reply #83 on: October 23, 2020, 08:25:34 pm
I agree, I like the forum because it’s an international resource, but at the same time, it’s obvious that owning a Royal Enfield attracts similar minded folk, nice folk at that.
Paul W.


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Reply #84 on: October 24, 2020, 08:15:12 am
Also agree with the forum sentiments, largely a bunch of very helpful and level headed types who love their bikes for what they are.

As I also have a Suzuki S40 (LS650) single cylinder cruiser so I am on a forum for them as well.
Different kettle of fish there, all sorts of cowboys wanting to make them go a million miles an hour and cutting them down to bobbers and cafe racers.  All that stuff is not my scene, but there is some helpful info amongst crap.

Geoff.
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Reply #85 on: October 24, 2020, 03:08:33 pm
Most members of this forum are old enough to understand and follow these tenets.......
#1  After loving my parents, my siblings, my spouse, my children, my friends, now I have started loving myself.
#2  I just realized that I am not “Atlas”. The world does not rest on my shoulders.
#3  I now stopped bargaining with vegetables & fruits vendors. A few pennies more is not going to burn a hole in my pocket but it might help the poor fellow save for his daughter’s school fees.
#4  I pay my waitress a big tip. The extra money might bring a smile to her face. She is toiling much harder for a living than me
#5  I stopped telling the elderly that they've already narrated that story many times. The story makes them walk down the memory lane & relive the past.
#6  I have learned not to correct people even when I know they are wrong. The onus of making everyone perfect is not on me. Peace is more precious than perfection.
#7  I give compliments freely & generously. Compliments are a mood enhancer not only for the recipient, but also for me. And a small tip for the recipient of a compliment, never, NEVER turn it down, just say "Thank You"
#8  I have learned not to bother about a crease or a spot on my shirt. Personality speaks louder than appearances.
#9  I walk away from people who don't value me. They might not know my worth, but I do.
#10  I remain cool when someone plays dirty to outrun me in the rat race. I am not a rat & neither am I in any race.
#11  I am learning not to be embarrassed by my emotions. It’s my emotions that make me human.
#12  I have learned that it's better to drop the ego than to break a relationship. My ego will keep me aloof, whereas with relationships I will never be alone.
#13  I have learned to live each day as if it's the last. After all, it might be the last.
#14  I am doing what makes me happy. I am responsible for my happiness, and I owe it to myself. Happiness is a choice. You can be happy at any time, just choose to be! 📷
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 03:18:53 pm by cyrusb »
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


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Reply #86 on: October 24, 2020, 03:43:25 pm
Right on Cyrus


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Reply #87 on: October 24, 2020, 03:53:33 pm
Excellent thoughts Cyrusb! do you mind if I copy it elsewhere please?

Frank


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Reply #88 on: October 24, 2020, 03:56:46 pm
Excellent thoughts Cyrusb! do you mind if I copy it elsewhere please?

Frank
Sure, copy away ,where do you think I got it?  ;D
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


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Reply #89 on: October 24, 2020, 06:39:20 pm
Good find, Cyrus, thanks for posting. - ACR -
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Reply #90 on: October 24, 2020, 06:47:06 pm
Yup, I like talking motorcycles around some grownups, don’t mind saying. Thanks Cyrus.


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Reply #91 on: October 31, 2020, 01:23:15 am
Nonfiction - I was tossing some primary drive ratios around. 4th gear is 1:1, so I used this as a baseline.
Primary sprockets are available in 25T, 20T, 19T, 18T, & 17T. I think the clutch hub is 60T.
Available bolt on rear sprockets are 38T, 42T, 46T, 50T, 56T & 58T.

You were thinking about going to even lower gearing.
Primary ratios:
60/25= 2.40:1    60/17= 3.53:1    60/18= 3.33   60x19= 3.16    60/20= 3.00

Some countershaft/rear sprocket ratios:
38/18= 2.10      42/18= 2.33    46/18= 2.56   50/18= 2.78       56/18= 3.11     58/18= 3.22       
38/17= 2.24      42/17= 2.47    46/17= 2.71   50/17=  2.95      56/17=  3.29    58/17= 3.41

Some overall ratios:
{ 3.53 x 2.10 = 7.41 } 17/60 primary, 18/38 rear
{ 3.33 x 2.10 = 6.99 } 18/60 primary, 18/38 rear
{ 3.16 x 2.10 = 6.64 } 19/60 primary, 18/38 rear
{ 3.00 x 2.10 = 6.30 } 20/60 primary, 18/38 rear
{ 2.40 x 2.10 = 5.04 } 25/60 primary, 18/38 rear (stock)

{ 2.40 x 2.78 = 6.67 } 25/60 primary, 18/50 rear ( I think yours)( if using a 19/60 primary, 18/38 rear creates 6.70 )
{ 2.40 x 3.11 = 7.46 } 25/60 primary, 18/56 rear ( if using a 17/60 primary, 18/38 rear creates 7.41 )

Basement ratios:
3.53 x 2.95 = 10.41 engine revolutions / 1 turn @ rear wheel, trans in 1:1 4th gear  ( 17/60 primary, 17/50 rear)
3.53 x 3.41 = 12.04 engine revolutions / 1 turn @ rear wheel, trans in 1:1 4th gear  ( 17/60 primary, 17/58 rear)

Proposed: 7.9/5= 1.6:1 more leverage ( 0.63 x 65 mph. maybe a 35-40 mph road speed )
3.53 x 2.24 = 7.91 engine revolutions / 1 turn @ rear wheel, trans in 1:1 4th gear  ( 17/60 primary, 17/38 rear)

What was apparent to me is that most of the trials machines we see have to be running dramatically lower primary ratios, as most seem to be running 16/17/18 - 38 sprocket sets. Mostly what this does is keep the rear sprocket off of the rocks, a good thing. Japanese bikes mostly use a gear primary to clutch connection. Having an adjustable primary ratio adds a whole dimension to tuning overall gearing.

I'm thinking a 17/60 or 18/60 primary combo is a good place to start on a trail bike. Primary sprockets are about $60 USD, A matching chain maybe $40. The DOWNSIDE is that the kickstarter now spins the engine faster - but probably not a big deal at stock compression ratios. The clutch plates will have more torque put across them, so new plates/springs may be needed...? - ACR -
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


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Reply #92 on: November 03, 2020, 01:07:15 am
ACR, I like this thoroughgoing analysis. I'm a bit simpler on these things, and usually just buy a gear a couple teeth bigger or smaller, then another one up the way if I need more or less of the change. Of course the less straightforward labor to change any but the rear wheel gear it worth doing some deeper thinking.

Right now prevailing winds have me grabbing an engine gear that's two teeth lower than stock, against the 50 on the rear. I think this will get me into some pretty steep terrain, but if it still needs more after that, then I'll look at primary ratios. My hope would be that the smaller engine sprocket with the stock rear wheel sprocket will be a useful around-town gearing (more/less comparable to what I'm at now with stock countershaft and 50t rear). Haven't done the math, and will do before any orders get made.

Point of trivia, Hitch told me the bolt on rear sprockets above 50t are for a different application, so for us the off-the-rack ones top out at 50. Easy enough to find a blank and cut and drill to fit the drum if (as I suspect I might) I ultimately want to bump that number up. I'm not worried about bashing rocks with the sprocket--it's not too crazy big.

At the moment I'm in a big push at work, and won't be able even to investigate my ignition fault until mid-month.


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Reply #93 on: November 03, 2020, 11:35:18 am
I’m fairly certain that the standard iron barrelled Bullet clutch hub has 56 teeth rather than 60, both on the 350 and 500 engined bikes.

I bought a machined rear drum for my 350 (which originally had the standard 38T rear sprocket, 16T on the gearbox). I fitted a 46T rear sprocket to it and I kept everything else standard. This was so I felt more confident off road; a couple of times before I’d run out of gears on the steeper or rougher tracks I used, on one occasion it resulted in an engine stall, short rollback and then feeling nothing under my downhill boot but a lot of fresh air, I went “off and under”, resulting in some damage to the bike and a few cuts and bruises to me. I was trapped under the bike for a few minutes, which was worrying because I was alone.

The bike pulled very well on that gearing but the maximum practical road speed dropped from 70mph to not much more than 50. Beyond that I felt the engine was revving uncomfortably fast. A 500 would run very well on similar gearing but again, top speed would be similarly limited.
Paul W.


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Reply #94 on: November 03, 2020, 03:33:42 pm
Indeed - 56 it is, even according to Hitchcocks. I was working from a "best guess" from counting partially photographed hubs on the parts pages. That makes the ratios about 7% taller across the board. H's suggested that the 17/56, the trials gear set and even 13T-16T/38T countershaft sprockets were pretty standard fare for trials work/tight trail. Sounds about right to me. You need some real gear range spread if you plan to both "cow trail" and ride the street. 13T to 15T tooth count sprockets are tough on grit-infused chains though, that's why the lower primary ratios are a nice tool. If the gearing is low enough to pleasurably "putt" on tight off-road stuff, street work is likely a 30-40 MPH affair at best. - ACR -
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


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Reply #95 on: November 16, 2020, 10:21:09 pm
Dribs and drabs... I've just come through a heavy time at work, during which I rode my bicycle past my Bullet every morning and afternoon with nary a stop to say "Hi neat bike, and sorry for ignoring you!"

That's mostly over and I've just made an order for a Boyer Power Box so I can ditch my battery and junk. Hoping also to get chain cases ordered up from India.

My next steps will be big ones, I think, likely meaning the bike will be laid up on the bench for a while while I

• Ditch the battery and regulator + rectifier
• Rewire the bike, more or less top to bottom, with minimal harness/switchgear (still debating about turn signals, yea or nay)
• Pull electric starter/sprag apparatus
• Replace inner/outer primary chain cases with non-ES ones for the pretty smoothies this thread is named for
• Pull motor/gearbox and swap shifting side

I hope my attention span holds out.


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Reply #96 on: November 17, 2020, 12:48:21 pm
You don't need to pull the motor and gearbox to swap shifting to the right (if I understand correctly), this can be done with them still in the frame.

A.
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Reply #97 on: November 17, 2020, 08:55:08 pm
@Adrian, yes, I've heard this told both ways. My plan will be to go in as though I might not need to pull it down that far, but be ready to do so if I run into trouble.

A general question for anyone who's had direct experience: I'm looking at ordering (what I presume are) third party repops of the inner/outer chain case halves from one of a dozen or so eBay sellers in India that all use the same photos to illustrate their offerings. The price looks to be under $100 USD to my door, whereas if I buy genuine parts from the good folks at Hitchcocks, I'm looking at more like $250. Right now that difference feels like a lot.

Has anyone here used non-genuine major parts like this and had illustrative experiences doing so? Lessons learned, money saved, hair pulled out? I have visited the places where this sort of thing is made, and I know the quality can vary pretty wildly--including right into the realm of 'totally workable'. I mean, how bad can they be, right?  ;)

My mileage may vary, so I look to you. Anyone have personal experience with comparable Enfield parts from third-party Indian sellers?


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Reply #98 on: November 18, 2020, 01:16:11 pm
Fit and finish quality can vary. I bought an inner and outer set that weren't a very good match, but I found other inners and outers that did match the halves of my mis-matched pair! I may have been lucky. The outer cover on the pair I bought was too small to cover the sealing band on the Indian inner cover, but it's a perfect fit on an old Redditch Bullet inner cover.

If something goes badly wrong with this form of ebay roulette, their guarantees apply.

Really you should only need the kick-start inner cover. For the right-foot shift conversion you can plug the hole in the 5 speed outer where the shaft for the left foot shift passes through.

Once you get an inner cover that you're happy with, there's a little more work to do. You'll have to drill and tap the crankcase for three 8mm or 5/16" studs to bolt the inner chain case on, the mounting holes have to be on a different position on the E/S models to clear the gear train for the starter. Not a huge job, and gain, this can be done with the engine in the frame if you can hold the drill straight!

A.




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AzCal Retred

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Reply #99 on: November 18, 2020, 03:23:24 pm
   AdrianII & many other of our highly talented crew do amazing things with these old beasts, retasking bits in ways that are quite the improvement over stock. Their abilities to create, adapt & reconfigure are truly impressive & undeniable.
   For me, 1 to 1 bolt on substitutions don't fall into that category. It is well worth another couple hundred to me to get parts that bolt on/fit up properly. If you have ready parts access and a well equipped shop, lots of free time/inclination to re-engineer "factory bolt-on" bits, have at it. As for myself in a 1 car garage with a small bench, at the wrong end of a 12,000 mile supply line, it's waaay too aggravating. I'd rather be tootling about on my Bullet than re-engineering factory bits that should slap right on. Cleaning up, deburring, maybe adjusting a bolt hole misalignment a bit, I'm all good with that. "Parts Changing" gets you back on the road/trail. Creating, that's an end in itself.


A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


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Reply #100 on: November 18, 2020, 08:35:02 pm
ACR, yup. I feel ya on this. I'm kinda right in the middle--I know how to do just enough, and have access to just enough smarter people and more advanced tools that I'm liable to get myself into some kinda unknown territory. I'm taking this in serious consideration, and feeling slightly more likely to go for the official stuff out of Hitch's warehouse.

Thanks also to Adrian II. Your note is both comforting and alarming, mainly because I don't have spares to mix and match with. Priorities!


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Reply #101 on: November 18, 2020, 08:36:32 pm
Apart from the odd bracket or spacer, I don't think I have created anything. Adapting can be good fun, though, especially with limited tooling.

A.
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Reply #102 on: November 18, 2020, 11:12:34 pm
Really Adrian? You're merely an adapter? From where I set more like a multidisciplinary development engineer with advanced fabrication tendencies. You've created some fine looking and performing hardware. You're light years ahead of most of us hammer mechanics, but we still can appreciate your efforts.

Nonfiction - check out that 4.00 x 19 trials tyre on my Green Bullet in the Duro post. I'm thinking with about 20 PSI it'll be a real gripper. OD's about the same as a 3.00 x 21 at 27".  I'll need to raise the stock front fender about 1". Feked has some very nice plastic units though... - ACR -
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


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Reply #103 on: November 19, 2020, 11:54:17 am
If I had:

1. Room in my garage for a lathe and a milling machine;

2. A working lathe and a milling machine in my garage;

3. The skills to use whatever lathe and a milling machine might be in my garage,

You'd be seeing me do a LOT more. As it is, I refer you to the vintage section of the forum where our friend Grumbern is doing all that and a whole load extra for real, e.g. designing and building his own machine for cloth-braiding custom wiring looms, and with the proper tooling too.

I'm just some greasy Herbert who likes to mess with obsolete mechanical stuff.

A.

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Reply #104 on: November 20, 2020, 07:36:38 pm
Little more credit card movement on this project: Just ordered the official inner and outer chain cases from Hitchcock's. Wiser heads prevailed. Hoping to lay into this thing over the Christmas/New Years 'break'. Exciting!


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Reply #105 on: December 03, 2020, 05:30:35 pm
Pretty, genuine RE chain cases arrived from Hitchcocks. I now have all the bits I believe I need in order to get this bike sorted in the way I want, and I'll be tearing into it this Saturday at my buddy's garage. On the short list:

Electric Start Delete and replacement of primary chain cases with sleeker 4sp type
Left-to right side shift swap
Kickstart pawl and return spring replacement (have had several miscues with the kicker, hoping these parts cure it.)
Battery+regulator & rectifier delete (Boyer Bransden Power Box in the house!)
New Bosch Blue Coil (old coil tested bad last night; known good coil fired the bike; yay!)
Fitting spark arrestor and heat shield to muffler/headpipe (this one will be fun and look cool, if I can pull it off.)
Centerstand delete (but would like to provision it for occasional and/or temporary use)

I'm so curious how much weight all this will save, and what the bike ultimately will weigh.

Longer list will involve the removal of all the existing switchgear, the ugly modern mirrors, and any wires that don't make the bike run or the lights burn. I'll put a toggle for headlight off/on/high beam and a kill switch and horn, as well as a pretty choke lever and decent looking mirror (an Emgo shorty probably). I'll probably grind some tabs and stuff off the frame eventually also, for more weight savings and to sleekly the bike.

With luck this all might happen before the end of the year. Lots of luck. 


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Reply #106 on: December 03, 2020, 09:04:58 pm
Quote
I'll probably grind some tabs and stuff off the frame eventually also, for more weight savings and to sleekly the bike.

May I suggest you hold off from lopping bits off the frame, someone might possibly want to restore it to stock in the future!

As for switch gear I'm all for keeping it simple, the left-hand switch cluster off the late kick-start iron barrels, with some slight re-wiring, will do all you want neatly enough, the throttle assembly for these K/S Bullets has a built-in kill switch which will also keep things tidier, rather than you needing to find a separate kill switch.

A.
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Reply #107 on: December 03, 2020, 10:55:46 pm
Re: Nonfiction @ # 105:
Spark Arrestor? Can we have a picture? I'll be needing one bye-'n-bye, I'm interested to see what works in Orygun. ;).
The final weight numbers I've seen so far seem to indicate a nominal 300 pounds is the "race ready weight" for these beasts. It would be interesting to get a "Engine + Gearbox" number off of a bathroom scale as well as the chassis all-up weight before the strip down begins. You can weigh assemblies as they are removed (centerstand, etc.) to estimate the final tonnage.
I include a couple "Sparta-brand" electrical diagrammes if you'd like to use them.  The electrical can be simplified much more as shown in Rev. 2 by moving S1 to the battery area and eliminating the ammeter & horn. A freon horn works well.
In Rev 2 only FOUR wires need go to the casquette:
A) (-) System Ground to Kill Switch
B) Spark Coil low side lead to Kill Switch
C) AC Lighting common to headlamp
D) AC Lighting "Power" to S2
Eliminating the casquette for a "Trials Yoke" later is greatly simplified. My S1 switches have a (a pallet) controlling the battery side in the ON position and a (b pallet) grounding the points when in the OFF position, I assume yours is the same.

I'm with Adrian II on the NOT grinding off all of the lugs & tabs. That really locks you in and doesn't lose much weight. If it was a "Max-effort" Replica Trials bike you'd use a Crusader frame & different gearbox anyway.

Best of luck & I'm anxious to see those spark arrestor shots. - ACR -
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Reply #108 on: December 03, 2020, 11:11:00 pm
ACR, the sparky is this one: https://www.yoshimura-rd.com/collections/replacement-service-parts/products/insert-kit-spark-arrester-rs-3-sa-11-k

I plan to chop the tailpipe off that little trials muffler--just the pipe, not the back plate. Then I'll braze some m6 threaded inserts above and below the outlet. Then I'll grind the flange on the Yosh part to oval, drill holes in to match my threaded inserts, stick a copper-n-fiber crush washer in there and bolt that sucker on. Time consuming, but should work.

Other stuff. It's unlikely I'll ditch the casquette just yet, in spite of my earlier plan to get the Trials top yoke. Money and spousal buy-in (she loves the casquette!) are both issues.

Switchgear: I can. Not. Abide the black plastic stuff on there. Looks wrong, feels cheap. I'm gonna get or already have a good throttle. Switches are easy to come by for kill and horn. Probably won't keep turn signals--I go back and forth on this and don't need a lecture about it ;^) The idea is the bike should look like a dirtbike from about 1967. (Which it is, except it didn't know it when it started life in 2007.)

Frame tabs. We'll see how it goes.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 11:17:29 pm by nonfiction »


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Reply #109 on: December 04, 2020, 09:25:14 am
Great find! That's a nice, minimalist solution. To be clear, the screen insert will end up inside the trials exhaust body, right? Judging from my home fireplace chimney screen performance, I'm guessing that exhaust pipe spark screen will need periodic cleaning. Nice touch to have it bolt on.

The Rev #2 diagramme uses the Hitchcocks MI/S157 dual-function 1960's era looking switch for both the kill switch PB & headlight Hi/Lo, that should be all the handlebar clutter there is. The AC headlights in Rev #2 are always on. A hot filament has a bit more resistance to vibration fatigue because it is more flexible. A second switch before the AC regulator would be needed for On/Off, OR use the "Turn Signal" switch (92032A) with the "Off" center position and a seperate Kill Only PB (LU/76204A).

The OEM key switch in ON connects the battery to the ignition & lights. In OFF it parallels the contact points and shorts the coil to ground, preventing a spark when the points open. Otherwise the alternator & Reg/Rec would probably just keep it running.

A freon horn eliminates a wire and is a real hoot on the trail when following a slower rider... ;D



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Reply #110 on: December 04, 2020, 10:45:50 am
You can certainly fit Lucas/Wipac replica switch gear for the 1967 (or earlier) look The Minda switvh gear I mentioned earlier is actually some black-apinted alloy which could be stripped and polished to suit, but I get what you're trying to do.

A.
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Reply #111 on: December 06, 2020, 06:47:41 pm
Big day yesterday. I got most of the way through both the Electric Start delete/primary chain case replacement and the brake/shift side swap.

Things went pretty smoothly with a couple little issues. The kickstart shaft O-rings supplied with the Hitchcocks kit were the right diameter but too large a gauge, so that held me up a while. Small complaint there.

And and I realize I should have chased the threads in the heretofore unused left-side brake pivot boss on the frame (oddball 7/16"x26tpi Cycle standard thread, so didn't have a tap handy). I ended up stripping the threads on the new pivot, so making an order today for a new pivot, nut and tap from Hitch.

Seeing the bike with that starter junk off the front of the engine and the smooth case (still just mocked up, as I still need to drill and tap the crank case to mount the 4speed inner chain case) was SO satisfying, as was seeing the huge battery and tool box stripped off the side. Add lightness!

Next weekend, with luck, I'll get it back together with those mechanical things done (and the battery back in for now), then tackle the install of the Boyer box and lose the battery the (a) following weekend.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 06:52:36 pm by nonfiction »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #112 on: December 06, 2020, 07:18:25 pm
Nice! She'll be a running beauty real soon.
Do not forget to tell us in morbid detail about retraining your right foot! :o  I found it to be a real adventure. :P Which shift pattern? 1 down or 1 up?
Good Hunting - ACR -
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Reply #113 on: December 06, 2020, 07:25:10 pm
ACR, I have literally never ridden a bike with the braking on the left. I'm quite curious how it'll be, and will post impressions and any hilarity that may ensue.

EDIT: Neglected to mention: I have 1d/4u pattern.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 07:45:24 pm by nonfiction »


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Reply #114 on: December 06, 2020, 07:42:46 pm
The REALLY good news to me is that you have the Disc brake, in the same location, that has actual stopping power.
Applying the shifter instead of the rear brake & panic up-shifting one gear really isn't the same when you NEED to slow down... ::)
Fortunately my seat is old & crystalized, like me, so it doesn't retain pucker marks. ;)
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Reply #115 on: December 07, 2020, 03:45:51 am
When I do rides with Retro Tours any non-standard (left shift) bike he owns has "brake left" labels on the speedo faces. May be helpful for your initial rides.

I had to put a "First Is UP" sticker on the speedo of the right shift Bullet I was working on. It was just too much to remember which side as well as the backwards shift sequence.
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Reply #116 on: December 07, 2020, 06:28:30 am
Yeah, whenever I put on new rubber, I slap a big bold strip of 2" blue tape with NEW TIRES sharpie on it onto my gas tank above the cap. Do expect this will call for that treatment as well, same kinda deal.


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Reply #117 on: December 07, 2020, 07:11:57 am
Visually that casing is a vast improvement.

I recently got my first right shift bullet, I found the gear shifting stuck in my head within 50 miles, it's the brake I still screw up occasionally, upshifting instead of rear brake (1up3down)  ;D


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Reply #118 on: December 07, 2020, 11:00:54 am
I grew up on right side shift, British bikes. My first BSA was 1down, 3 up. The second one was right shift, 1 up, 3 down (as per original RE bikes).

I later “converted” to Japanese left shift bikes and for the last 23 years have ridden a CB 750 Nighthawk which is left side shift, 1 down, 4 up. It caused me some slight foot confusion but only for a short time.

Three years ago I bought an RE 350. It had the “old fashioned” right side shift, but as we know, 1 up, 3 down. The right side shift was easy to revert to; my brain easily went back to BSA number two.

HOWEVER! Going back on the Honda now caused me some issues. I’d reset my brain/foot interface.

Then I swapped out the RE’s 4 speed gearbox for a 5 speed. It was originally a left change one but I converted it to right side to suit the bike. Now I had a right side, 1 down, 4 up pattern. A number of times I changed down rather than up!

Once I’d overcome that, I’m back to being very comfortable on the RE.

Unfortunately, I’ve found it more tricky to ride the Honda, especially because I don’t ride it as much as I do the RE. When taking it out after a break I make sure I carry out a couple of rapid stops on our private street before getting out on the main road and I won’t take a passenger until “back in the groove”.

All part of the fun!
Paul W.


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Reply #119 on: December 08, 2020, 06:11:30 pm
A question, about my engine primary gear. It's got the two rows of teeth for the chain, and the starter gear stands higher. People talk about cutting the starter gear off--is that because it won't fit inside the 4sp chaincases--like the starter gear fouls the alternator mounts or something? Have not test-fitted.

I'd just as soon leave it intact and save the trouble of cutting it if I don't need to. If I do, there's a big lathe sitting 10' from the bike right now so it's doable, but unnecessary work saved is time on the seat gained.


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Reply #120 on: December 08, 2020, 07:06:18 pm
They had to move the chaincase mounts for the E/S inner cases where they bolt onto the l/h crankcase and replace the three studs and nuts with countersunk screws, see my post of 18th November. You might be able to countersink the mounting stud holes in the K/S inner case and re-use the countersunk screws and original engine sprocket when you drill and tap in the K/S inner positions.

The alternator stator stud spacing is the same on both K/S and E/S iron barrel 500 models.

A.
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Reply #121 on: December 08, 2020, 07:13:26 pm
Thank you Adrian. I had a feeling it was in here at some point, but in the heat of the work, skimmed the thread poorly and missed it. So countersinking is the difference then, huh? That makes sense and we'll see what we can do to make it work. Again, no big whoop if we need to chop it off. Thanks!


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Reply #122 on: December 12, 2020, 07:17:59 pm
I left the job in the middle. Ran out of weekend hours and work ramped up again. The primaries are off the bike and the crankcase still not drilled to mount the 4sp inner case. My buddy whose shop I'm working in has come up with a solid plan for drilling, so that will be next.

But. It's time to think about gearing in earnest. ACR, I finally did some math! I currently have stock primaries, 25:56, and stock 17T gearbox sprocket against the big 50t rear wheel sprocket. That's a fine gearing for me for around town, since I'm not touring the bike, but I want to go waaaay lower for the singletrack trail riding.

This morning I ordered a new 19T primary from Hitchcocks, which will net me that substantial jump lower with the 50T rear wheel sprocket, and with the 38T mounted, will give me almost exactly the same final drive ratio as I have right now. As a bonus, this new gear will save me the trouble (at least for now) of shaving the starter gear off my ex-ES engine sprocket.

It also means if I want to do any long distance stuff (WABDR maybe?), I'll need to dig back into the primaries. Not really sure how likely that is, to be honest. Excited!


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Reply #123 on: December 12, 2020, 07:50:22 pm
Change up the game. Keep the dirt bike for trail use - get this  (or similar) $2500 Electra for road duty.
Bikes are cheap - this Electra is 5-speed, Disc-braked and is essentially the "Swan-Song" of the Bullet design.
Gear type oil pumps vs. disc-type. Needle bearing big end right out of the box.
All the stuff you'd need to do to get a nice road Bullet for 1/4th of what it would cost you to do it all yourself. Just normal maintenance costs.
Take the "Significant Other" on a week long road trip and pick it up. A couple days on the East Coast, miles & miles of Americana in between. Maybe add in a day or so to visit long-lost relatives. Bilgemaster or another URECF member might be able to acquire it for you and then you schedule it for when work is slack. $2500 over 3 years <$80/month if you had to borrow it, pay it off whenever you get to it. Just mentioning a possibility...

2008 Royal Enfield Bullet Electra X - $2,500 (Carrboro, North Carolina)
https://raleigh.craigslist.org/mcy/d/carrboro-2008-royal-enfield-bullet/7236910407.html
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Reply #124 on: December 13, 2020, 12:34:28 am
Heh heh, not exactly shopping for another one just yet, but generally I agree, ACR. Horses for courses.

That's a nice looking Electra.


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Reply #125 on: December 13, 2020, 01:00:24 am
That Electra has the gear shift on the right side (the way it should be). Are they common in the USA?
Paul W.


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Reply #126 on: December 13, 2020, 01:25:40 am
Yup, common as dirt right after a small donation to H's... ;D ;D ;D

https://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/5-Speed-Right-Shift-Conversion

5 SPEED CONVERSION, LEFT TO RIGHT CHANGE WITH BRAKE, 1 UP 4 DOWN
Part No: 90140 ; £240.00

5 SPEED CONVERSION, LEFT TO RIGHT CHANGE WITH BRAKE, 1 DOWN 4 UP
Part No: 90142 ; £195.00
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Reply #127 on: December 13, 2020, 08:48:03 am
I meant as from the factory, as I’m sure you know!  :)

The Hitchcock conversion is very expensive for what it is (more than I paid for my gearbox)!

I took one look at the cost and converted my 5 speed myself. It cost me about 20% of what they charge.

Paul W.


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Reply #128 on: December 13, 2020, 11:05:33 am
I'm not sure the Electra-X was anywhere near as popular as the iron barrel Bullets, I suspect that the styling cost a few sales, as evidenced by the fact that US customers were soon offered the AVL Classic/Classic Deluxe. The Electra-X engine and gearbox in the more traditionally styled Bullet rolling chassis seemed to have greater appeal.

Kevin might know more about this!

A.
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Reply #129 on: December 13, 2020, 12:00:34 pm
I'm not sure the Electra-X was anywhere near as popular as the iron barrel Bullets, I suspect that the styling cost a few sales, as evidenced by the fact that US customers were soon offered the AVL Classic/Classic Deluxe. The Electra-X engine and gearbox in the more traditionally styled Bullet rolling chassis seemed to have greater appeal.

Kevin might know more about this!

A.

           I've always wondered why there is no Parts Manual for my drum front brake '08 AVL Classic. I have the Parts Manual for the Electra (it's a really good manual) but it's mainly good for the engine and some other of the mechanical stuff. Dozens of pages do not apply to my Classic at all.

           PS: My manual is the one with some pages for "Break Parts"  :) :)

           But it's so easy now to find what you need that you almost don't need parts books any more. Writing this just reminded me that I really should order a spare Green TCI from Hitchcocks before they become totally unavailable. 
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


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Reply #130 on: December 13, 2020, 12:09:11 pm
Yes, I’ve always had to mix and match between manuals for my 350. It’s an iron barrel but with TCI ignition, so in some ways it’s a factory hybrid, I suppose. When I first bought it I visited Hitchcock’s shop for some parts and the chap I dealt with told me I was asking for some wrong items. When I showed him a photo of the left side of the bike he scratched his head.
Paul W.


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Reply #131 on: December 13, 2020, 01:44:24 pm
H's are well clued-up about the Redditch models and the official exports from India, their knowledge of some of the intricacies of the non-UK models - not to mention spare parts cover where these differ from the run of the mill stuff - is bound to have a few gaps.

As RE ownership as a whole drifts ever further into Himalayans/650 Twins/new Meteors we hope they can at least keep a good spares base for the classic models (and maybe some EFI Bullet parts!).

A.
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Reply #132 on: December 13, 2020, 03:33:30 pm
Yes, the 350 Bullet Electra is a bit of a strange beast. I didn’t know that it was an oddball bike when I bought it but soon discovered I have to be careful when ordering stuff because the engine isn’t an “Electra” in the usual sense, in that the top end is as per the older style Bullet engine. I’ve not had the bottom end apart but I’m hoping it has the more reliable floating bush big end, rather than the potentially more fragile one of the “Full Monty” 500 Electra.
Paul W.


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Reply #133 on: December 13, 2020, 11:36:50 pm
Another hassle - for the unwary - is to order stuff from India via ebay which has been wrongly described in the listing. Indian suppliers don't necessarily know the export models very well.

A.
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Reply #134 on: December 13, 2020, 11:49:35 pm
As long as the photo in the advert accurately matches the item offered for sale....

I have been caught out a couple of times when a slightly different car part has been sent, rendering it unfit for purpose, but as far as Royal Enfield parts are concerned, not been a problem as yet.

I do have one part on order from India at the moment, a gear change crossover shaft; hopefully that will match the description.
Paul W.


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Reply #135 on: December 14, 2020, 10:19:52 am
It does sometimes work in your favo(u)r. I wanted a set of plain-top disk brake forks for Not A Fury and found a brand new set cheap over here. The seller had mistakenly ordered a set of B5 forks from India, thinking he was getting a set for his iron barrel 350, and couldn't be bothered to send them back.

A.
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Reply #136 on: December 21, 2020, 09:29:02 pm
This weekend I took drill and tap to my Iron Barrel Bullet's crankcase, and was successful in mounting the pretty 4sp chain cases, deleting the electric start apparatus, and cleaning up the ugly on that left side.

I also changed the primary drive ratio, dropping the engine gear from 25-19t--it's a big difference, but the math says this primary ratio with stock final drive (back to the 38t rear for around town) should give me the same gearing as I was enjoying with stock primary and 17-50 final drive. I'm content with that, as the new low gear probably won't be quite low enough for trials competition, but should be very good for single track.

We shall see, anyhow.

The bike is not all the way back together yet, and there were a couple mini-challenges along the way that made me glad my buddy's shop has a lathe in it, but it seems to be mounted up pretty good and Oh! My! GOD! does it look better to have that smooth case and the big electric start junk all cleared off the thing. As my buddy Kerry said, I think I took like 50 years off the bike's appearance.

Next steps: Boyer Power Box, battery delete, seal up the distributor with a little breathing tube, and mount the new coil and plug wire. Then, hope it starts and go make some snow angels in the hils!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 09:32:52 pm by nonfiction »


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Reply #137 on: December 22, 2020, 06:12:06 am
Very nice job! A Belstaff waxed cotton jacket, some wellies and I believe you could pass for a lost-whilst-greenlaning time traveler! That seat really looks the part - nice choice.
As someone raised on Japanese machines, I'd never really thought about the tuning implications of being able to change primary gearing before; it really opens up a lot of options.
What an amazing resource Alan Hitchcock has created, all those fabulous new parts for our Dinosaurs, just a click away.
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Reply #138 on: December 23, 2020, 07:43:31 pm
Thanks ACR...
Quote
A Belstaff waxed cotton jacket, some wellies and I believe you could pass for a lost-whilst-greenlaning time traveler!

You get me!

I am gonna thrash on this bike some over the break to get it (off)road-ready, and I hope to attend a new member orientation day with our local trials club early in January. We'll see if I manage that goal, timewise. You'll hear about it here first!


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Reply #139 on: January 24, 2021, 10:11:27 pm
Shakedown ride with the starter, sprag clutch and battery now all gone, new lower gearing inside the pretty new primary cases.

THIS THING RAILS! 17 miles of tight singletrack in an area across Puget Sound called Tahuya, with two buddies on KDX220s. Like, tight enough that 17 miles is about three hours' riding.

The bike worked flawlessly, kickstarting if anything _easier_ with the Boyer Power Box and no battery than it did before. The gearing seems just about spot on for tight singletrack now. Tops out at 50, cruises at indicated 40 (37 by local radar), but I'm running third gear in the tight, which is just right, couple more gears for when the trail starts to climb.

It was a glorious sunny day of bashing through rhododendron forests and third-growth clearcuts, and I was giggling all day long. Not least at my own expense. I love riding in the tight woods, and rely a lot on trail braking. Friday was the very first time I ever rode a bike with left side foot braking, and I found it a bit bigger adjustment than I was expecting.

I mounted the shift lever pointed a bit upwards, to help me remember not to stab it for brakes. It helped... a little. Plenty of hilarity ensued as I repeatedly employed my 'fancy new, gear actuated rear braking system' as my buddies called it. But I kept the bike on its wheels, and it being so low to the ground and so tractable, I wasn't giving up much of anything in the tight trails to my pals on their KDX's (as soon as it opened up they were gone, of course, and nobody was racing, but still...).

My biggest takeaway is that I really, really need to fab and mount a robust bash plate and cable-tie the brake and shift levers to it. They are SO vulnerable out there in the breeze, and the oil pump and the chin of the primary are gonna be relieved to be tucked behind some protective metal. Also need to lose the centerstand (I'll keep it in the shop/on the truck for simplifying service)--that sucker is in the way of everything. The sidestand also needs 2 1/2" of length added.

By the way that left foot brake lever made a very significant change in the responsiveness of the rear drum brake vs the janky right-side crossover kludge. Total plus.

When I first fired it up after putting it back together I had some dripping from the gasket between the crankcase and inner primary. Figured I'd have to pull the alternator again to cinch those bolts down or goop the gasket a bit. But it appears, after a day in the world, the parts have gotten comfortable together—I don't see a drip under the bike 36 hours after parking it up. Crossing fingers it remains content.

All in all, I'm beyond excited by this--as a proof of concept it's exceeded what I dared hope would be possible with this bike already. Still plenty to do to 'finish it', but it's back home now, muddy and (I like to think) happy. As am I--a ways yet from finished, but home, muddy and happy.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 10:23:07 pm by nonfiction »


AzCal Retred

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Reply #140 on: January 25, 2021, 01:03:18 am
What a great outcome! Kudos to you and your well fettled machine. Proper gearing is everything. I like the big blue ignition coil.
There is another side stand that bolts onto an existing left side lug.  PART No. 37188A ; £44.00 ; PROP STAND ASSEMBLY
This is the original style prop stand as fitted to the 1950's Redditch and and early Indian Bullets. Whilst it is not as practical as the stands fitted to the later Bullets it gives a nice retro look.

My crank/primary gasket on my old trail bike likewise leaked and then experienced a miracle healing. Must have been some excess "class" working it's way through.

Swapping shift/brake inputs is an acquired taste. As a Honda riding sprout I managed to apply the "gear actuated read brake" on my 441 BSA "Victim" whilst turning left in traffic. The machine's 8:1 CR in 1st gear took over and politely but immediately stopped turning its rear wheel and low-sided in front of a motorhome. Lucky for me the M.H. driver was awake!

Again - great to hear about your success! - ACR -  ....green with envy!

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Reply #141 on: January 25, 2021, 01:12:08 pm
Back in the 1950s, the Indian army was looking for a suitable motorcycle to patrol the border...  ;)

Quote
kickstarting if anything _easier_ with the Boyer Power Box and no battery than it did before

The smaller engine sprocket will also have boosted cranking speed on the kick start, ergo higher alternator output at kick-over. I love the whole battery-less thing, I have run BSAs like that before. A good alternator is vital, you appear to have one!

My only reservation with the all-in-one battery eliminator set up these days would be to avoid the Boyer PB or other make equivalents, and have a separate single phase reg/recitifier (these things are so cheap from the far east now that they're virtually a consumable) alongside a separate capacitor. Replacing entire Power Boxes in the event of failure is more expensive.

A.
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Reply #142 on: January 25, 2021, 09:42:20 pm
Thanks @ACR. And Adrian as well--of course it starts better because it's cranking faster because of the gearing change. Should have thought of it. Kicks over easier too, I guess for having taking the starter/sprag mass out of the mix.


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Reply #143 on: January 26, 2021, 07:27:18 am
That looks fun   :D

Bashplates, the one sold for the bullet is more for "show", I have one on my shelf but the previous owner of mine ended up making one due to the rather flimsy nature of the purchased one.


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Reply #144 on: January 26, 2021, 03:44:35 pm
That's a heartachingly LOVELY ride! You've done well.
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India. Yet it squeaks by here in Virginia.

 


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Reply #145 on: January 28, 2021, 12:02:12 am
Thank you for the kind words, Bilge!

And it's about to get lovelier. I just couldn't keep looking at that now-out-of-place casquette any longer. I've swallowed hard and ordered the trials top yoke from Hitchcock's. The Bates 5-1/4" headlamp is waiting. New ye olde style throttle is on the way, and I've got a pretty decompressor lever for the left handlebar--gonna lose all that plastic switchgear and not a moment too soon! In that process I hope to do some hiding of components (like that little Boyer Power Box) and get the area under the seat largely free of clutter and wires.


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Reply #146 on: January 28, 2021, 12:56:35 pm
Welcome to the world of casquette-free Royal Enfields!

A.
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Reply #147 on: July 06, 2021, 04:27:54 am
Well I finally got around to mounting the Trials top yoke and the Bates headlight. Still have some wiring tidying to undertake, but I love the look.

I was surprised it has the benefit of being a more rigid ride as well. Might just be the fork legs weren't super tight in the casquette.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #148 on: July 06, 2021, 04:51:44 am
She's a dead-set beauty!
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nonfiction

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Reply #149 on: July 06, 2021, 05:12:25 am
The beastie had been leaking oil, a little for a while, then it got to be quite a bit, to where I looked for cardboard anywhere I needed to park for more than a minute.

One day on the way into work, I looked down and saw my primary cases rattling side to side, opening a gap between them and the crankcase. Hmmm. Wonder where all the oils been coming from?

I was afraid the threads I'd cut to mount the 4 speed primary case to the 5 speed engine might have failed.

Dug in there Saturday and found my primary chain a bit loose (so that it was beginning to saw through the alternator mounting tower) also.

I'd need to pull the cases, clean everything, mount a new gasket, re-set the studs with red Loc-Tite, spray some copper gasket smuff, and bolt it all together.

Seems the threads were still sturdy, but the nuts had backed off. I replaced them with Nyloc ones and snugged them down good.

The tiny primary gear set I had needs a lot of slack taken from the chain, and the adjuster bolt fitted as original was not long enough.

It was a weird (Cycle standard?) thread, so I just ran an M8 x 1.25 tap down in there and fitted a cap head stainless bolt of proper length, sparing the shorter one for use at a later date.

My choice to mount my Bosch Blue Coil on the fender was stylish, but vibration got the best of it. The bolts just tore holes in the fender.

So while I had it apart Saturday, I pulled the mounting collar, slapped it in a bench vice to straighten the ears, then flipped it around and mounted it on the bung on the back of the 'seat tube'. Tidy as!

Huge progress, but almost invisible--I hope my new cinching down of the cases holds. I like the bike better when it isn't pissing oil all over!


AzCal Retred

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Reply #150 on: July 06, 2021, 06:08:02 am
Nonfiction - The primary chain was the recommended pitch for that sprocket and it's still sloppy? Is the slipper shoe worn significantly?
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


nonfiction

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Reply #151 on: July 06, 2021, 05:42:20 pm
Yeah, it was the right pitch, as indicated by Hitchcocks. The slipper face was pretty pristine actually. I snugged it good when i first put it together, but I'm guessing the chain stretched a bit in use.

Lots of torque running through there with those low-low gears. My clutch plates are getting a little beat up at their ears as well--topic for a different thread.