[clachcik]

So torque says 9 ftlb and I went to tighten the bolts and they are now just sitting there turning in place. Torque wrench wont click it just keeps spinning. Any idea if I messed up the threads and if so...any idea how much that would cost to repair?

[clachcik]

I also heard a pop on all 4 bolts too. They won't turn by hand and the cover is on nice and tight, nothing is loose.

[YellowDuck]

Turning in place with how much torque on them?  You said they are more than finger tight.

Maybe your torque wrench is no good?

If anything is broken it is probably not the bolts.  More likely you stripped the threads in the head.  Could try chasing them with a tap and seeing if they will hold torque, but more likely you need a heli coil in each.

[clachcik]

Turning in place with how much torque on them?  You said they are more than finger tight.

Maybe your torque wrench is no good?

If anything is broken it is probably not the bolts.  More likely you stripped the threads in the head.  Could try chasing them with a tap and seeing if they will hold torque, but more likely you need a heli coil in each.

9 ftlb like the manual says. Manual also says the bolts are one time use maybe need new bolts? One of the bolts wont even come out if the head it just spins freely inside of it. Such a headache lol. My torque wrench should be good I use it on alot of my stuff and just tried it on another part and it stops when it reachs the correct torque.

[clachcik]

And my local Royal Enfield service department won't be able to get me in until the winter. Wow lol

[clachcik]

Two bolts broke off inside of the head. Amazing. This. sucks.

[jackdaniel]

Yeah, I've heard horror stories about this.  I just did a "snug" torque setting by hand when I did my first service.

[clachcik]

Yeah, I've heard horror stories about this.  I just did a "snug" torque setting by hand when I did my first service.

It really blows :/ Never had this issue before. The place I bought it from is 2 hours away out of state and the only way I can get my bike there is to rent a uhaul. Thankfully it's covered under warranty still and they can get me in by next week. Just dreading the drive there.

[YellowDuck]

Honestly given the transportation issue, if it were me I would be in there with a screw extractor, since it is clear it is the screw that is buggered and not the threads in the head.  What good is the warranty in this case if it is a 10-min job and it will cost you $$ to rent the trailer and drive there?

You could ask them to ship you replacement screws, and in the meantime use some other fastener with the right length and thread size, with a washer - you are riding again.

YMMV.  Depends on how confident you are doing that sort of thing.

Sorry this happened to you, that is very sucky.

[clachcik]

Honestly given the transportation issue, if it were me I would be in there with a screw extractor, since it is clear it is the screw that is buggered and not the threads in the head.  What good is the warranty in this case if it is a 10-min job and it will cost you $$ to rent the trailer and drive there?

You could ask them to ship you replacement screws, and in the meantime use some other fastener with the right length and thread size, with a washer - you are riding again.

YMMV.  Depends on how confident you are doing that sort of thing.

Sorry this happened to you, that is very sucky.

I was just thinking this exact thing while I was in the garage hugging my bike. Lol. I have 3 of the 4 bolts stuck inside of the head and was thinking about drilling them out somehow. I just never did that inside of a cylinder head. There were pieces of aluminum around one of the threaded holes but it could just be from the bolt I pulled out. I'll call the service department and see if they can just send me the screws.

[NVDucati]

It seems to me, based on your account, that what you need is a local machine shop more than you need the dealership.
While your dealership may have a guy who can do it ... at a machine shop everybody can do it.

The bolts are obviously not available at Ace Hardware. But with the one bolt that is still good you can assemble a set of bolts by using "collars". Theoretically you still have the rubber washers.
Don't know what town in Maine will have just the right guy. Preferably, one with a heart that likes praise, pizza and money.

(have the shop manual and parts manual on your laptop to ease any fear they might have)

[clachcik]

It seems to me, based on your account, that what you need is a local machine shop more than you need the dealership.
While your dealership may have a guy who can do it ... at a machine shop everybody can do it.

The bolts are obviously not available at Ace Hardware. But with the one bolt that is still good you can assemble a set of bolts by using "collars". Theoretically you still have the rubber washers.
Don't know what town in Maine will have just the right guy. Preferably, one with a heart that likes praise, pizza and money.

(have the shop manual and parts manual on your laptop to ease any fear they might have)

Lol yea I was calling around this morning and not even this Harley shop here would touch it. I do have the service department at the dealership I bought it from sending me a couple sets of the bolts for the valve cover. I'm going to take a screw extractor to the 3 bolts stuck in the head carefully and making sure to have my magnet ready for anymore shavings that try to get into the cylinder head. If they are stuck in the head most likely it was just the bolts were over torqued which still puzzles me. I'm just going to snug fit them next time by hand, the cover won't be going anywhere.

[6504me]

Two bolts broke off inside of the head. Amazing. This. sucks.

Often times when these type bolts snap the threaded parts is loose in the hole and can be coaxed out with a dental pic.

Failing that, if you are confident, you can try a left twist drill bit BUT be careful no filings get where they SHOULD NOT BE.

As a last resort you can drill and use a cut nail as an easy-out. Concrete cut nails are soft and will twist rather than an easy-out snapping off and then you have a real problem cause they are hardened.

[Hoiho]

If they are stuck in the head most likely it was just the bolts were over torqued which still puzzles me. I'm just going to snug fit them next time by hand, the cover won't be going anywhere.

Without wanting to add to your misery; they are a shoulder bolt and you can feel the shoulder contact the head when the tightening the bolt. No need for a torque wrench.

I think 6504me is right, they will likely be loose in the head…

[6504me]

Used to see this a lot on Hondas with similar cam cover/bolt arrangements when the rubbers under the bolt heads were not changed.

The rubbers harden and when reused so they're thinner and it's easy for many to over tighten to the point of snapping the bolt.  Usually the broken pieces were easy to remove and a warning to the loose nut on the end of the wrench sufficed.

With new rubbers there's less feel and torque wrenches can easily be fooled so "feel" is required and that comes with experience not from a Clymer manual or blindly believing a torque wrench.

[lucky phil]

Two bolts broke off inside of the head. Amazing. This. sucks.

Here's a tip. 12nm or 9FT/LBS is the torque for a grade 8.8 M6 bolt and you are correct, that is what the manual recommends. However in my experience none of these "specialised" bolts that are unique to a manufacturer such as the rocker cover bolts on the 650 engine are ever grade 8.8 material, more likely a grade 4.6 material which puts the torque at 4.1NM or 3 FT/LBS or 36 inch pounds.
So in my view the manual torque for these bolts is wrong.

Ciao

[drums4money]

Here's a tip. 12nm or 9FT/LBS is the torque for a grade 8.8 M6 bolt and you are correct, that is what the manual recommends. However in my experience none of these "specialised" bolts that are unique to a manufacturer such as the rocker cover bolts on the 650 engine are ever grade 8.8 material, more likely a grade 4.6 material which puts the torque at 4.1NM or 3 FT/LBS or 36 inch pounds.
So in my view the manual torque for these bolts is wrong.

Ciao

Maybe the tech editor omitted the decimal in the factory manual. . . 1.2Nm seems closer to the mark than 12. 

[6504me]

Here's a tip. 12nm or 9FT/LBS is the torque for a grade 8.8 M6 bolt and you are correct, that is what the manual recommends. However in my experience none of these "specialised" bolts that are unique to a manufacturer such as the rocker cover bolts on the 650 engine are ever grade 8.8 material, more likely a grade 4.6 material which puts the torque at 4.1NM or 3 FT/LBS or 36 inch pounds.
So in my view the manual torque for these bolts is wrong.

Ciao

Ornamental style bolts rarely approach even grade 4 as they are often cat and not rolled and threaded.

[alex12342]

Western cycle supply should have some in stock, saw them on his website a little while ago

[lucky phil]

Ornamental style bolts rarely approach even grade 4 as they are often cat and not rolled and threaded.

Won't argue with that.

Ciao

[clachcik]

Western cycle supply should have some in stock, saw them on his website a little while ago

I'll check it out. They are one time use bolts and this would've been the third time I took the head off to do valve adjustments. The place I bought it from is sending me the parts and I will rip her apart and remove the 3 bolts that are stuck in the head and just hand tighten this time. 9 ftlb seems a little over kill

[6504me]

I'll check it out. They are one time use bolts and this would've been the third time I took the head off to do valve adjustments. The place I bought it from is sending me the parts and I will rip her apart and remove the 3 bolts that are stuck in the head and just hand tighten this time. 9 ftlb seems a little over kill

Get all new bolts, all new seals, and a new cam cover gasket.

[lucky phil]

I'll check it out. They are one time use bolts and this would've been the third time I took the head off to do valve adjustments. The place I bought it from is sending me the parts and I will rip her apart and remove the 3 bolts that are stuck in the head and just hand tighten this time. 9 ftlb seems a little over kill

For the purposes of clarity and factual information do you have an official reference for this statement or is it an opinion? 

Ciao

[Starpeve]

For the purposes of clarity and factual information do you have an official reference for this statement or is it an opinion? 

Ciao

I don’t believe they are, from other readings on this forum

[zimmemr]

I'll check it out. They are one time use bolts and this would've been the third time I took the head off to do valve adjustments. The place I bought it from is sending me the parts and I will rip her apart and remove the 3 bolts that are stuck in the head and just hand tighten this time. 9 ftlb seems a little over kill

I don't believe they are. There is nothing to that effect in the shop manual, they aren't critical fasteners and if they were one time use they'd probably come n the same package as the VC cover gasket. 

[6504me]

Not single use but this type of shouldered bolt, seal, gasket for cam covers arrangement has been around for a very long time and works fine when new, soft gasket and seals are used then the bolts NEED NOT BE THAT TIGHT to seal.

When squashed and hardened gasket and seals are reused the odds of a broken bolt increase dramatically because you don't FEEL the soft seals and gasket seat (give?).

If I were the OP I'd get all new bolts, seals, and a new gasket then choke way up on the wrench when tightening.

[zimmemr]

Not single use but this type of shouldered bolt, seal, gasket for cam covers arrangement has been around for a very long time and works fine when new, soft gasket and seals are used then the bolts NEED NOT BE THAT TIGHT to seal.

When squashed and hardened gasket and seals are reused the odds of a broken bolt increase dramatically because you don't FEEL the soft seals and gasket seat (give?).

If I were the OP I'd get all new bolts, seals, and a new gasket then choke way up on the wrench when tightening.

+1

[Karl Fenn]

This does appear to be a common problem on the 650, use a left handed drill if that does not work try an extractor in the hole they should take that torque no problem, use a vacume cleaner hose to suck up any swarf whilst drilling, these are badly engineered and the wrong torque provided no more than 5 absolute max. If you have to drill and put helicoil inserts in that won't be good sounds if the internal threads are still OK.

[clachcik]

Thanks for the suggestions, I used a little bit of everything but I went at it for a few hours tonight with extractors drill bits and even dental picks. Finally got the 3 broken nuts out of the threads. From what it looks like, the threads are ok? But I tore up the area around the holes. It looks ugly but I made sure to cover the head very well and had a magnet picking up the broken bits and shavings.

[gizzo]

Really great work! Well done.  If you're worried about the ragged edges of the holes, you could knock it smooth with some wet and dry, use kerosene not water to lubricate the paper. But it most likely be fine without bothering.

Take it easy on the new bolts, huh?

[Hoiho]

Well done - that’s gotta be a good feeling, almost worth breaking the bolts for 

Had you used the same torque wrench the previous two times? I wonder if the bolts were getting fatigued and third time was the clincher
 

[clachcik]

Well done - that’s gotta be a good feeling, almost worth breaking the bolts for 

Had you used the same torque wrench the previous two times? I wonder if the bolts were getting fatigued and third time was the clincher

Thanks. I was hoping it wasn't worse than just broken bolts. I just used the torque wrench this last time and I will not be doing that again. Now I need to find the right size tap for these new bolts and I am all set. No shavings or any metal pieces in the head thankfully.

[clachcik]

Really great work! Well done.  If you're worried about the ragged edges of the holes, you could knock it smooth with some wet and dry, use kerosene not water to lubricate the paper. But it most likely be fine without bothering.

Take it easy on the new bolts, huh?

Thanks I will try that. Oh I will, I want to tap these holes first and then just lightly bolt these in this time. With the engine on the frame it kind of gets in the way so I hope I can tap it straight on.

[Starpeve]

Thanks I will try that. Oh I will, I want to tap these holes first and then just lightly bolt these in this time. With the engine on the frame it kind of gets in the way so I hope I can tap it straight on.

If the bolts were softer than the head, which appears to be the case, save yourself the grief and don’t worry about running a tap through the threads. More likely to cause problems than fix them, I’d reckon.

[Karl Fenn]

Good job well done got them all out that's the main thing.

[gizzo]

If the bolts were softer than the head, which appears to be the case, save yourself the grief and don’t worry about running a tap through the threads. More likely to cause problems than fix them, I’d reckon.

Agree. If the threads work i'd leave them alone.

[justonemore]

If I was in your position just now I'd change my oil.

[clachcik]

Anybody know the size of the rocker cover bolts?

[lucky phil]

If the bolts were softer than the head, which appears to be the case, save yourself the grief and don’t worry about running a tap through the threads. More likely to cause problems than fix them, I’d reckon.

Personally I'd run an intermediate tap through all the holes with the broken bolts. From the images I can see you have damaged the first 2 or 3 threads in the heads extracting the bolt remains. Run the inter tap in 4 or five turns then follow up the same with a plug or finishing tap. Be careful starting the tap, use a small "t" bar wrench with a chuck style drive for better control. The cover screws are harder than the rocker and cam support material.

Ciao

[MartinThailand]

... Manual also says the bolts are one time use ...

Where does it say that in the manual? Page number?

Not disputing what you say at all, I'd just like to see it for myself. I don't find the online manual very easy to view so it's easy to miss small but important details like this.

[clachcik]

Where does it say that in the manual? Page number?

Not disputing what you say at all, I'd just like to see it for myself. I don't find the online manual very easy to view so it's easy to miss small but important details like this.

Page 19 but just noticed it doesn't say "cover" just cylinder head bolts. Makes sense. The bolts are soo soft but I got it all together and no issues!

[zimmemr]

Page 19 but just noticed it doesn't say "cover" just cylinder head bolts. Makes sense. The bolts are soo soft but I got it all together and no issues!

Quite a few OEM's on a wide range of engines recommend replacing the cylinder head bolts any time they're removed. Valve cover bolts not so much.

[phunky1]

I did the same thing being a new mechanic, even using a torque wrench.  I took off both rocker covers and had a local shop timecert each hole.  cost me $50 per hole, but wont have that problem anymore.  I have done another valve service since then and the new holes are solid.  You live you learn.   

[lucky phil]

I did the same thing being a new mechanic, even using a torque wrench.  I took off both rocker covers and had a local shop timecert each hole.  cost me $50 per hole, but wont have that problem anymore.  I have done another valve service since then and the new holes are solid.  You live you learn.   

Timeserts are very good, better than Helicoils. So good in fact that some equipment/machinery actually come with them from new.

Ciao

[phunky1]

I did the same thing being a new mechanic, even using a torque wrench.  I took off both rocker covers and had a local shop timecert each hole.  cost me $50 per hole, but wont have that problem anymore.  I have done another valve service since then and the new holes are solid.  You live you learn.   

It was $25 each to have the work done, not $50 like I said earlier....

Timeserts are very good, better than Helicoils. So good in fact that some equipment/machinery actually come with them from new.

Right, shouldn't have another issue...hopefully.

[zimmemr]

Just wondering why you needed the threads repaired, did you strip them? Or just get a little ham fisted and break the bolts off?

[lucky phil]

I have my own fitment kit. Here's one I did on a Guzzi crankcase aft main bearing thread.
Ciao

[zimmemr]

I have my own fitment kit. Here's one I did on a Guzzi crankcase aft main bearing thread.
Ciao

I generally use Helicoils because they're cheap, easy to install and widely available and about 90% of the threads I repair are in relatively low stress areas where someone either cross threaded a bolt or just got carried away and tightened it till the threads stripped. But I've also used Timeserts and for my money they're preferable, especially if the fastener is critical.

[lucky phil]

I generally use Helicoils because they're cheap, easy to install and widely available and about 90% of the threads I repair are in relatively low stress areas where someone either cross threaded a bolt or just got carried away and tightened it till the threads stripped. But I've also used Timeserts and for my money they're preferable, especially if the fastener is critical.

Yes Helicoils are ok and been around for years and easy to fit. I've had them come out a few times though. Timeserts have an advantage if it's a fastener that regularly needs removal and installing.

Ciao 

[Oldandintheway]

Spanners are a good indicator of torque. Use an open ender ringy, and feel with your thumb and for finger on the ring (head) end of the spanner and your little finger on the outer end, and apply pressure. Then check it with your torque driver, maybe a little under specs at first.
The specs for many bolts in RE manual seem too tight for me. Have a look at the triple tree specs, they're going into ally, a bit too much in my opinion. Also rocker cover bolts. I am doing a 3knm less.
And decent allen keys will give a similar result.

[supercub]

I'm used to working on old bikes and I usually go by the feel of the fastener before grabbing a torque wrench unless it's a head stud or other more critical thing. Jap bikes stay fastened pretty well and feeling it out ensures that a thread doesnt get seized or bottom outfor some reason.

[phunky1]

Just wondering why you needed the threads repaired, did you strip them? Or just get a little ham fisted and break the bolts off?

Yes broken bolts but threads didn't seem good...again new mechanic here so maybe overboard having them repaired but they are solid now.   

[zimmemr]

Yes broken bolts but threads didn't seem good...again new mechanic here so maybe overboard having them repaired but they are solid now.   

As an old mechanic with 55 years in the trade my advice would be that if you don't trust something, affecting a proper repair, one that you do trust, is never going overboard. If nothing else it's good for your peace of mind.