Author Topic: 700cc Timing cover brass plug question  (Read 298 times)

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scooterbrain

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on: May 27, 2021, 11:57:41 pm
Im working thru a wet sumping issue on my 1959 700cc Chief, and have all new Pump components,and pretty much have verified the path from the timing side block face to the sump is OK by using a hand pump and rubber tube to pull oil out of the crankcase.
Also verified that the Tank is Not leaking into the sump.
Then I verified that the scavenge pump does work by spinning the quill in the pump and used a rubber hose into a glass jar full of oil and it pulls the oil out of the jar. Then I verified path from the scavenge pump to the timing cover and its ok. I have now cleand up everything up and am ready for reassembly and I have a question.
What is the purpose of the Brass plug at the bottom of the inside of  timing cover ?? Its just above the oil filter housung AND the plug is filled with soldier ?? Is that the way it should be ? I dont see it on any diagrams here or at hitchcock...
Thanks for your opinion.

P.S. added Avitar and readded as rotated and it came out the same !! Oh well..
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 12:12:43 am by scooterbrain »
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville


grumbern

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Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 09:13:57 am
Pics, pics, we need pics...!


grumbern

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Reply #2 on: May 28, 2021, 09:16:35 am
Any of these?



scooterbrain

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Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 03:48:25 pm
sorry it was late last night when I posted and was having trouble finding the attachment function. I found it this morning :) In the pic I am pointing to the plug with a pencil. adding a couple bike pics too for the heck of it. The orientation on the pics looks wrong as posted but when I click on them to open the orientation looks correct. Hope its the same on your end.  :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 04:02:49 pm by scooterbrain »
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville


scooterbrain

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Reply #4 on: May 29, 2021, 07:33:09 pm
Update with 2 more pics here. Sorry I was slow to get the othere uploaded. I know that the r side case half is Chief verified by Grahm Scarth and the Left Crank case half is Trailblazer. I know this timing cover is likely wrong for the chief but hope its workable. The only issue Im having now is poor scavenging as in I drained 20 oz oil from the crankcase.

Ive relapped the pumps and bench tested and suction works fron both sources and Im about to go back togather with it see attachment...I can suction oil from the block face where noted into a jar, and I have suction and pressure on the timing cocer face where noted in the other pic. The only thing im concerned about is that my timing cover has the soldier filled Brass plug screwed in the timing cover in just above the oil filter housing and a chief cover ive seen does not have a hole there. There is a picture of that too.
 It looks good ta go to me ?? I suppose whoever used this wrong cover used the filled plug to match where the correct Chief cover has no hole.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 07:42:04 pm by scooterbrain »
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville


classicrider

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Reply #5 on: May 30, 2021, 07:32:26 am
It maybe a oil pressure relief,with the hole soldered up.i have an earlier 700 and it has a brass plug relief valve with
a spring and ball,only in a different location.


grumbern

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Reply #6 on: May 30, 2021, 08:20:10 am
Well, it could be a pressure relief for the filter housing. Mine has a relief valve in the  line towards the rocker feed.
Maybe this is an earlier version. I think it was soldered because it might have leaked, but it probably should kept open to prevent pressure rise.
Andreas


scooterbrain

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Reply #7 on: May 30, 2021, 08:32:12 pm
Yeah I have a feeling im gonna be heading deeper back in. I put it back togather yesterday with that brass plug as it was "and rode a quick 5 miles and it filled up the crankcase back up with 16 oz oil AND its just too noisy. it sounds like the rythym of valve train at idle "tica tica tica tica" but Im afraid it could be deeper. Everything is new.Pumps, Bores, pistons wrist pins, rod and mains, and even cams and lifters and valves, and guides tappets and Timing chain and gears. and the valve lash is very near zero.
Cost a furtune.
Im wondering about the new quill seal. it doesnt feel like much of a tight fit into the worm and it looks like there is room for two neoprene seals on that oil feed plug but I have just the one fron hitchcock. Hell even the
Thanks for the response guys ! I,ll let ya know if I find anything new. Maybe there is a missing check ball behind the plug.
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville


grumbern

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Reply #8 on: June 02, 2021, 03:03:42 pm


scooterbrain

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Reply #9 on: June 02, 2021, 06:22:15 pm
Ah...yeah I see that. looks the same but cant tell if its filled. probablu is and is just a plug for another relief valve. I look it over again
 I left it as it was on my last attempt.
 Im thinking that plug has nothing to do with my real issue. i.e sump fills up rapidly despite oil returning to the filler neck "maybe not enough" and loud top end ticking end noise despite zero lash and all new components.

 I suppose if the new quill seals dont correct the issue Im in for a teardown. ive lapped the new pumps into the case a couple times with medium and fine compound. Ill do it again when I try the new quill seals. BTW !! 2 seals would fit on that oil plug...I wonder if that would be a bad Idea to try it ?? Its a new worm too. I just dont understand this noise. If it were rods it would have locked up by now I would think. shorting  out the spark does not change the noise and the noise seems to keep pace with a timing light indicating valve train or a piston on power stroke. Thanks for the pic
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville


ace.cafe

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Reply #10 on: June 11, 2021, 05:27:06 pm
The quill feeds the crank. If the quill doesn't seal well, then it could partially starve the crank bearings, causing a knock.

Not too sure about the twins oil circuit, but in a Bullet the timing side crankshaft seal can be installed facing the wrong way, which could cause oil to enter the sump from the timing chest.

Try to isolate where the oil comes into the sump from.
It is possible that it can come in from the oil tank via a bad gasket sealing  between the engine case halves.  I have had this happen. I usually drain the oil tank and sump completely and fill the oil tank with ATF and let it sit unmoved overnight to see if any ATF seeps into the sump overnight. No running or turning of the engine is done during this test. You can see the red ATF color easily for identifying it. If you get ATF in the sump, it is most likely the case gasket. If you get more oil, it is probably coming from the timing chest.

You could also look to see if oil is coming in from the primary chest via the crankshft seal on that side.
Isolating the source is the first step.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 05:49:53 pm by ace.cafe »
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AzCal Retred

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Reply #11 on: June 12, 2021, 03:52:52 am
Here's a "Dumb Bell" seal conversion for the twins. I'd quiz H's about it, but I think it deals with loose or mismatched quill sealing. It may have application, but quiz the actual experts. H's is very good about responding to inquiries.

PART No. 42114B ; OIL FEED CONVERSION NYLON SEAL ; £5.50
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scooterbrain

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Reply #12 on: June 12, 2021, 05:37:09 am
Thanks for the feedback. Pretty sure I found the noise. I neglected to shim the cams and they move around a lot and seem to make a noise when I move theb back and forth, like what I was hearing when its running. Parts on the way for that and a new High capacity return pump that likely wont help the issue of 21 oz oil in the crankcase after running ten minutes on the stand "with a fan blowing" haha.
Ill look it over real good as I slowly tear it back down. Have a look at this pic. In thinking that I did indeed properly install the timing side Tappet guide pointing Away from the timing chest hole ???.
I cant remember but I think the other three guides can go in any orientation ? Dont want to extract them again if I dont need to.
Also Im concerned that the cyl base Gasket on that side looks cooked comparred to the left side where you can see it is still Blue as it was when New.
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville


scooterbrain

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Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 02:44:17 pm
Oh and by the way, yeah the quill seal is brand new and I have not lost any oil from the primary case at all.
It could be my Tank leak test that Roasted that base gasket.
I drained the crankcase and filled the Oil Tank and then let it sit overnight and "After That" I places a space heater very near it on that right side pointing straight at the Right cylinder for probably 6 or 7 hrs and that gets it hot enough that in places you cant touch it so likely that wasnt a great idea.
I go back at it methodically today and hopefully come up with some reason for this low volume oil return. I could manually run the oil pump with a drill and the crank removed and see what happens. Already verified the passages with a squirt gin and a vacuum bleeder suction pump so its baffling "But ill find it" .Thanks for all of your suggestions and Ill read back over all of it and let ya know what I find
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville


scooterbrain

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Reply #14 on: June 12, 2021, 10:19:22 pm
Yeaaaahhhhh!!!
I found the second problem. See attached picture.
By pumping oil thru the worm gear into the crank. I can get oil to the rod which are still attached to crank BUT most of the oil is going Past the threads where the Worm Nut screws into the back of the crank web So I suppose I need to mahe a tool and remove it and use some sor of thread sealer.
That would certainly explain all of the oil in the crankcase.
MikeA
1959 Enfield Indian Chief.
1971 Triumph Bonneville