[StreetKleaver]

Hello all.

Just a general question about both UCE and Iron Barrels along with Alloy "Iron" Barrels.

Can the Cylinder sleeves be pressed out and back in again?
As such to press in a new liner.
I've done a search and can't seem to find any information.

Thanks

Ben

[zimmemr]

Hello all.

Just a general question about both UCE and Iron Barrels along with Alloy "Iron" Barrels.

Can the Cylinder sleeves be pressed out and back in again?
As such to press in a new liner.
I've done a search and can't seem to find any information.

Thanks

Ben

I don't know about the Enfields, I've never done one but if it's possible LA Sleeve can do it-  https://www.lasleeve.com/tech/re-sleeve-your-cylinder

[richard211]

There are a few ways to remove the sleeve from an alloy block.

 To remove the sleeve just put the barrel in a preheated oven and set the temperature between 150 - 180 degrees Celsius. I generally leave it for at least 10 -15 minutes. Then place the barrel upside down on a couple of blocks of wood as close to the OD of the sleeve where the cylinder barrel material is the thickest (surface where the head gasket sits on). Take a third piece of wood place it on the bottom of the cylinder and hit it with a hammer, that will knock the sleeve right out of the barrel.

 To install a sleeve I would first insert the sleeve in a zip lock bag and leave it in the freezer overnight but if you are in a rush you can get away leaving it for a few hours, in the freezer. When you are ready to install the sleeve, don't forget to heat the barrel in the oven just like we did when removing the sleeve out. Once the barrel is heated up, support the barrel from underneath using a couple of wooden blocks and the sleeve can be taken out of the the freezer, the sleeve will drop right into place, then place another flat piece of wood on the top of the sleeve and place something heavy on top it, just to hold it in place while everything cools down.

  If you had a hydraulic press and wanted to the job really fast, what you could do is set the barrel in the press, apply little pressure on the sleeve and the use a propane torch and try heat the barrel uniformly , then add a little bit more pressure, keep repeating the process until the sleeve drops out. To reinstall the sleeve just heat up the barrel place the sleeve on the barrel and carefully add pressure with the hydraulic press. You want to keep the sleeve as level as possible. If its too tight, heat the barrel up with the propane torch which will help the barrel expand a bit more, never force the sleeve into the barrel since it can gouge the inner diameter of the barrel and end up having to discard the barrel. Once you drive the sleeve fully in as we did before keep some pressure on the sleeve as everything cools down.
 
 Just out of curiosity are you using a new replacement sleeve or a used one? If you are using a used sleeve with a matching piston there are a couple more precautions to be taken.

[StreetKleaver]

Just out of curiosity are you using a new replacement sleeve or a used one? If you are using a used sleeve with a matching piston there are a couple more precautions to be taken.

Ah nice, tanks for the reply mate.

It's actually Nikasil coating done by Electrosil, here in Australia.

My question being is I'm looking at sending my 535cc Iron Barrel (Alloy) to be Nikasil plated, Their requirement is to be able to remove the sleeve from the cast barrel. I have already contacted them and they said it's no issue Nikasil plating a iron bore. They have been doing it with vintage sleeve, 2 stroke and 4 strokes for decades. I've used them in the past with 2 stroke race engines.

The current piston is 535 +20, but its not due for a rebuild just yet. Just waiting for the business to resume so I can contact them see how thick their coating can be applied to dictate if I can go down size or 2 in piston diameter. Hopefully a standard or +10 high compression forged piston can be used.

Same modifications will be applied to a GT535 UCE Barrel if the Iron/Alloy Barrel exercise works out.
The cost of a coating is slightly more than a new Alloy Barrel, but it would balance out with a longer service life and greatly reduced friction Nikasil has compared to iron.

[AzCal Retred]

The whole point of Nikasil is to promote heat transfer & reduce weight by allowing the use of all-alloy barrels. In mass market there may even be an economy to be had by not noodling around with the liner as a separate part. If you are going to the effort, why not go to a 100mm piston (KLR? Maybe the BMW 650?) and toss the liner? Use dowels to index the barrel. Or have a smaller alloy liner turned & fitted, then let Electrosil do their magic to that. Then you'd see some real benefit from less weight & better heat removal. The Enfield singles are probably in general doing well to see 35K-50K on a bottom end, and those machines get 70 - 90 MPG dead stock, so cylinder friction likely isn't a big concern. Ace & BW are getting very good HP out of standard cylinders with no abnormal wear of overheating issues, maybe the money is better spent elsewhere, like a good saddle to help rack up the miles, or a nice forged piston and steel rings...?

[Mr_84]

ACR has good points here , an alloy liner that is plated will have far better heat transfer ,this is well known with CR500 that has normally a steel liner that can be replaced for an alloy plated one and achieve well known proven results. one thing to keep in mind is rings, they may not bead and seat as well on the plated bore as they can be slightly different

[StreetKleaver]

Interesting points. I'll also check with Electrosil the cost of a alloy cylinder.

But my main goal is not to have major increases in power, bore size or make the heat transfer any better than what the Alloy barrel can do. Just more longer service intervals between piston/cylinder sizes.

I'll weigh in if it's all reasonable within the scope of things. As it's not a race bike. Just a pokey street ridden commuter.

The current specs of my build is.
Stock Head, Valves, Cams.
Accralite 535cc +20 piston.
Steel rod, roller big end.
All Bottom end bearings replaced with Japanese bearings.
Mikun VM32.
Modified Rectangular airbox with DNA filer.
Pazon Electronic Ignition.
Hitchcocks larger pump discs, spindle and worm gear.
The rocker feed pipe lower single section has been replaced with a larger ID pipe to take advantage of this.
A "Bun Breather" style Breather system and separate timing chest Breather filter.
5 speed box.
19/38 gearing.
Hitchcocks 5 plate clutch.

Once the Piston and Cylinder adventure is decided on. Then I'll build a new head with Hitchcocks competition Valves along with a set of cams to suit highway riding and speeds.(I'm yet to figure out what cams are suitable)

Cheers!

[AzCal Retred]

A forged piston & steel rings are probably going to make 25K - 35K miles or possibly more with a good air filter & mechanically sympathetic rider. That's probably 10 years of use for the "average" rider, at least one year if you are an "Iron Butt" type and take it everywhere, all the time.
It's too easy to just get a second fitted alloy barrel/forged piston/steel rings assembly bagged in grease setting on a shelf in the garage. 100% reserve spares, and that pushrod motor is easier than a VW Beetle to get the top end off. Toss on a new head & base gasket, Bobs your uncle - a new motor. About all I'd add to what you've done already are the H's $100 dollar lightweight alloy pushrod set to reduce reciprocating loads to the valve train. Two of my machines have managed to digest their tappets & guides. Since you have access to Electrosil, maybe Nikasiling the cam & tappet surfaces might help slow that process. When you get the head off, the intake guides need a seal to minimize the amount of oil sucked into the combustion chamber, that will save a lot of plug fouling. And that's another handy, affordable part to have a duplicate of, the cylinder head. Get one & detail it out in your spare time. When you need it, a few bolts and you are there, no 2-6 week downtime waiting on parts & machine work.

[Carl Fenn]

Well my activities on this subject amount to rebore until you can’t rebore no more, then dump the barrel and piston and buy new, but you can get them sleeved albeit a bit expensive l bet finding someone to do it these days gets more and more difficult.

[AzCal Retred]

True enough Carl, but at our age & looking at the amount of treasure spent already, saving money really isn't the game here. It's a fun hobby, and a lot cheaper than spending time at the bar. I'm betting StreetKleaver is having a great time and hasn't missed any meals or rent payments.
I'm jealous of that steel con rod & 5-speed though! 

[richard211]

Ah nice, tanks for the reply mate.

It's actually Nikasil coating done by Electrosil, here in Australia.

My question being is I'm looking at sending my 535cc Iron Barrel (Alloy) to be Nikasil plated, Their requirement is to be able to remove the sleeve from the cast barrel. I have already contacted them and they said it's no issue Nikasil plating a iron bore. They have been doing it with vintage sleeve, 2 stroke and 4 strokes for decades. I've used them in the past with 2 stroke race engines.

The current piston is 535 +20, but its not due for a rebuild just yet. Just waiting for the business to resume so I can contact them see how thick their coating can be applied to dictate if I can go down size or 2 in piston diameter. Hopefully a standard or +10 high compression forged piston can be used.

Same modifications will be applied to a GT535 UCE Barrel if the Iron/Alloy Barrel exercise works out.
The cost of a coating is slightly more than a new Alloy Barrel, but it would balance out with a longer service life and greatly reduced friction Nikasil has compared to iron.

No worries at  all. What I was about to suggest when reusing a barrel and piston, its best to make a mark on the sleeve and the barrel so it goes back in pretty much the same position it came out. The inside dimensions of a sleeve is an oval shape and not a perfectly cylindrical shape throughout.

 In the case where you are planning to use a Nikasil coating on the inside of the sleeve, there are a couple of things to take into consideration, one of them is being able to have the capability to hone the Nikasil coating. Nikasil contains silicon carbide which is also used in cutting tools and is slightly less harder than diamond. Usually to hone the Nikasil sleeve you would need diamond honing stones. It would be better to talk to the company doing the Nikasil coating and a reputed engine builder to get a clearer idea about what's involved and what their capabilities are.

 The second thing to be taken into consideration is the material of the piston rings, when using an iron sleeve, chrome piston rings are used which is harder than the iron sleeve and it results in the sleeve wearing out. That is totally acceptable. After doing the Nikasil coating, it is not advisable to use the chrome piston rings on the Nikasil coating. If you ask a question such as will the engine run with chrome rings on the Nikasil sleeve, the answer is yes but the durability of the chrome rings is going to be questionable. What happens is that the chrome piston rings start pitting. To solve the issue a softer piston ring material is needed and cast iron piston rings is generally used with Nikasil coated sleeves.  For the top ring you could source a Ductile Iron top ring.
 

[StreetKleaver]

A forged piston & steel rings are probably going to make 25K - 35K miles or possibly more with a good air filter & mechanically sympathetic rider. That's probably 10 years of use for the "average" rider, at least one year if you are an "Iron Butt" type and take it everywhere, all the time.
It's too easy to just get a second fitted alloy barrel/forged piston/steel rings assembly bagged in grease setting on a shelf in the garage. 100% reserve spares, and that pushrod motor is easier than a VW Beetle to get the top end off. Toss on a new head & base gasket, Bobs your uncle - a new motor. About all I'd add to what you've done already are the H's $100 dollar lightweight alloy pushrod set to reduce reciprocating loads to the valve train. Two of my machines have managed to digest their tappets & guides. Since you have access to Electrosil, maybe Nikasiling the cam & tappet surfaces might help slow that process. When you get the head off, the intake guides need a seal to minimize the amount of oil sucked into the combustion chamber, that will save a lot of plug fouling. And that's another handy, affordable part to have a duplicate of, the cylinder head. Get one & detail it out in your spare time. When you need it, a few bolts and you are there, no 2-6 week downtime waiting on parts & machine work.

Thanks Mate.

Luckily, a lot of this stuff was already done when I got the bike. I've just added to it. Albeit some of it was pretty rough. All the breathers were blocked when I got it and the engine leaked like a siv.

Thanks for all the input guys. I weigh it all up and work out the most reasonable cost vs reality what its for. And yes like you guys, its a hobby. Once the GT535 comes along. That will be more of a daily rider and this Bullet is the weekend blaster. Although I do want to replicate what is done to the GT535 in engine modifications as my Bullet.

The head is definitely needing attention. It's the noisiest thing of the motor and its been untouched.

[StreetKleaver]

No worries at  all. What I was about to suggest when reusing a barrel and piston, its best to make a mark on the sleeve and the barrel so it goes back in pretty much the same position it came out. The inside dimensions of a sleeve is an oval shape and not a perfectly cylindrical shape throughout.

 In the case where you are planning to use a Nikasil coating on the inside of the sleeve, there are a couple of things to take into consideration, one of them is being able to have the capability to hone the Nikasil coating. Nikasil contains silicon carbide which is also used in cutting tools and is slightly less harder than diamond. Usually to hone the Nikasil sleeve you would need diamond honing stones. It would be better to talk to the company doing the Nikasil coating and a reputed engine builder to get a clearer idea about what's involved and what their capabilities are.

 The second thing to be taken into consideration is the material of the piston rings, when using an iron sleeve, chrome piston rings are used which is harder than the iron sleeve and it results in the sleeve wearing out. That is totally acceptable. After doing the Nikasil coating, it is not advisable to use the chrome piston rings on the Nikasil coating. If you ask a question such as will the engine run with chrome rings on the Nikasil sleeve, the answer is yes but the durability of the chrome rings is going to be questionable. What happens is that the chrome piston rings start pitting. To solve the issue a softer piston ring material is needed and cast iron piston rings is generally used with Nikasil coated sleeves.  For the top ring you could source a Ductile Iron top ring.

Thanks again Richard. I shall ask all these questions prior to sending it away. They do have a FAQ.
Link --->https://www.electrosil.com.au/faq.htm

They even state, the harder the rings. the better. Still, I'll call them and find out.
I'll shoot Hitchcocks a email and see what rings are supplied with their Hi Compression Forged Pistons.

This is the price comparison so far.

Find a cheaper Indian new barrel, I can only seem to find 500cc barrels. So it would need a bore out to 535cc
All in $AUD.
Indian Alloy Barrel 500cc : $307
Hi Comp Forged 535cc Piston : $333
Machine work : $200
Postage $50
Total : $890

Hitchcocks
Matched 535cc and Forged Piston Kit : $664
Postage : $50
Total : $ 714

Nikasil Coated Barrel : $450
Hi Comp Forged 535cc Piston : $333
Postage : $20
Total : $ 783

There's not much in it compared to a coated cylinder. (A carton of beer for us Aussies)
Sure I wont have a spare barrel. But the current Barrel is 535 +20. Nikasil coating can be built up to +30 thou give or take.

And my reasoning for Nikasil is service longevity. Not performance hunting/better cooling and so on.
In the past I've had Electrosil/Nikasil coated bores in 2 stroke race engines/ Enduro and Motocross. They'd go through 4 to 6 same size pistons (250 and worked 144/Big bore 125) at the time I sold the bikes and the coating was still perfect. So that's my personal experience. Different kettle of fish. But I witnessed evidence first hand.

[richard211]

Keep us posted on what you find out and decide to do. I think this is unchartered territory for most and we could actually learn something new.

[StreetKleaver]

Keep us posted on what you find out and decide to do. I think this is unchartered territory for most and we could actually learn something new.

Definitely, it's not common practice in this circle of motorcycling.
But its coming more and more common amongst Vintage Motocross and Enduro. Those ol chook chasers still run alloy Barrels and Nikasil coated cast iron sleeves. Along with the rpm variance and extreme loads dirtbike engines get put under it should be a good thing for our beloved Enfields.