Author Topic: Won't run in wet  (Read 3341 times)

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Willbrunei

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on: October 23, 2021, 01:17:08 am
Hi can anyone guide me through trouble shooting the fact that my 2007 bullet won't run in the rain or after being washed? I am a complete novice on electrics, so please bear with me.

The bike will cut out even in very fine rain -  it misfires, slows and stops and then refuses to start. Same after a bath.

When left for 10 -15 mins in the hot Bruneian sun, all is forgiven and we are back on song.
So I am guessing water is shorting something

Now, as far as trouble shooting:..

Battery has 12 volts across the terminals and starts the bike fine (kicker) even after a week or so on the drive

when wet the ignition switch works OK and pilot lights, tail light, indicators all work. The needle on the amp meter deflects as it should and the kill switch does its job on all of the above.

So battery and points OK?

I took out the plug and wd40'd inside the boot - no good.

When I then kick it over a lot, to try and get it started, I can kick and kick to no avail. When I do this, the coil gets hot. This made me wonder if there is water in the coil -  it is a oem lucas coil with push fit ht lead. I pulled out the lead and reseated the little metal clip thingy on the end. It seems a very Heath Robinson way of making a connection and a pain to get back in to the coil.

Anyway, I did get it back in and she started!! But it took so long to refit, I don't know if I found the problem, or something else dried out in that time.

I did notice a split in the coil hg lead rubber boot and the low tension connections are naked ie no boots

Any suggestions gratefully received as it does rain a lot here and though I try and avoid it, the odd shower comes, literally, out of the blue at times

Thanks in advance.
Will
Used to have:
Fs1E; Yamaha V90 step through; MZ125; Harley badged Cagiva 125; Cm250T; DT250; 750 four F2; XS 650; GS400; W650; '07 iron barrel military 500; Royal Alloy TV175

Now have: '22 classic reborn


AzCal Retred

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Reply #1 on: October 23, 2021, 03:16:28 am
Willbrunei - I feel your pain... :o

The coil gets warm from current heating during prolonged KS attempts. Normally the coil is energized only momentarily between engine firing events. When KS-ing, the points can be closed continuously for an electrically "relatively long" time if it comes to rest with the points closed.

Because your ammeter is responding normally when you are trying to KS the machine after water exposure, likely the points/condenser are OK. The points are the low voltage side, so a ground there will not allow your ammeter to return to center normally - it'll look a bit like the points aren't ever opening. The spark only happens when the points open & the coil field collapses, inducing a voltage (& hopefully spark) on the HV side of the coil.

You describe the High tension/ High voltage side wiring as having defects, cracks, loose bits. You are due for some R&R there. The coil HV terminal always has road dirt, salt, etc. on it. Moisture makes this into a conductive soup. IF there are any cracks in the coil boot, plug cap or HT lead the 30 (or so) KV will track to ground instead of going thru the lead, spark plug and jumping the plug gap, a much higher resistance circuit. All of these HV bits have to be 100% all the time or the spark goes on holiday.


HV is invisible, parts are cheap compared to wasting a day standing by the roadside. The Auto Supply is a great resource here. They carry all the boots, wire, plug caps, connectors you need. Another thing they carry is water repelling silicone boot grease. What I usually end up doing is getting a $15 - $25 "kit" that has way more stuff than you need, but that gives you spares, right?

Starting at the coil nipple, clean the coil top with mild soapy water on a rag to remove grit & film. Wipe it off WELL with clean paper towels.
Then wipe down the "clean" nipple with rubbing alcohol (70% - 90%) to remove any soap film. Wipe it off WELL again with clean paper towels.
Take a Q-tip and clean out the nipple recess with alcohol too, then dry it out. With another Q-tip goober a bit of silicone boot grease on the inside.

The primary wire insulation needs to be fresh, clean & flexible, not stiff & brittle. If it doesn't feel "new", replace it. Metal core if you can get it, otherwise use new "resistor core" (Carbon filament) HT lead.

Find a boot that fits SNUGLY on the coil nipple and stays put. That's where the "kit" is handy, there is a selection of sizes. It can be straight or a 90 degree style, as long as the HT lead doesn't foul or rub against sharp metal.

Check that the selected metal insert actually snaps into place inside the coil nipple.

The tricky bit is installing the inner connector metal insert. Shove the primary through the boot, leave it long. Alcohol can lubricate this process if needs be. Using whatever tools you need to, clamp/attach the end fitting to the wire, then pull it back up into the boot WITHOUT pulling it off the HT lead. Most end fittings seem to require the center conductor to be cut long and folded back into the fitting before clamping to assure connection. " It seems a very Heath Robinson way of making a connection " ; I wholeheartedly concur...

When the coil end boot/connector combo seems proper, work a little silicone grease under the boot around where the HT lead exits the boot. Wipe a bit onto the coil nipple & snap into place.

At the spark plug end, the cap needs to be 100% also. I like the "screw on" NGK units from Hitchcock's. Again, a bit of silicone grease at the lead end and some around the cap rubber where it seals around the porcelain.

At this point the coil to plug connection has new bits that shouldn't bleed off voltage, & the whole assembly is fairly waterproof at each connection from the silicone grease.

For more money, if there's a "speed shop" around, MSD Ignitions makes pre-fab coil leads. These are nice because they are a one piece molded assembly, and likely far more waterproof than a "built up" one. The tricky bit is finding one that actually physically fits your coil nipple snugly, as mostly these parts are special order. But a new, clean & greased, built up assembly is going to be an improvement over what you have now.

Good Hunting - ACR -



A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Paul W

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Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 09:53:25 am
Change the spark plug cap.
Paul W.


Adrian II

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Reply #3 on: October 23, 2021, 02:41:04 pm
Preferably NGK, I don't think that the quality/piracy issues affecting their plugs apply to their plug caps.

If you have a resistor spark plug, eg NGK BR7ES, use an non-suppressor plug cap, or suppressor plug cap for a non-resistor plug.

A.
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tooseevee

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Reply #4 on: October 23, 2021, 04:26:11 pm
Preferably NGK, I don't think that the quality/piracy issues affecting their plugs apply to their plug caps.

If you have a resistor spark plug, eg NGK BR7ES, use an non-suppressor plug cap, or suppressor plug cap for a non-resistor plug.

A.

          I had to laugh a bit when I read this.

          Remember years ago when we covered this subject in the miNUTEous of detail hammering it with everything from a level of stone tablet, hammer & chisel all the way to quantum physics & wormhole/string theory?

          To R or not to R, that was the question. And to what end?
RI USA '08 Black AVL Classic.9.8:1 ACEhead/manifold/canister. TM32/Open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Gr.TCI. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7" visored headlight. Much blackout & wire/electrical upgrades.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #5 on: October 23, 2021, 04:44:32 pm
Ummm....like this one, 2CV?  ;D

Bullet Iron Barrel / Re: B8ES is a good plug.
« by northshore_paul on May 23, 2009, 03:10:36 pm »
I remember the days when resistor plugs and wires were the abnormal and most ran straight wire and non-resistor plugs on their cars. The reason we have resistors nowadays is to prevent radio frequency interference. If you haven't heard what it is it is because everyone is using resistors today. If you have your radio on and you have an old lawnmower w/o the resistor you will hear a tick tick tick on your AM radio, and if it is strong enough on your FM radio as the lawnmower is near your car radio. So what I am trying to say is don't worry about non-resistor, the only person suffering will be the guy in the car next to your bike at the stop light.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana  :o 8)
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Willbrunei

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Reply #6 on: October 24, 2021, 04:01:55 pm
Thanks Azcal. That's x truly comprehensive reply - much appreciated.

The bullet has just clocked 20000 km (not all me) so it is time for a number of maintenance things. Your coil and ht lead procedure will be one of them. I currently have the front wheel out to service the brake.
Unfortunately the PO drilled out the top trunnion (I understand this is a common mod) so I will be ordering a few bits from Mr H and will add ht lead, boots and plug cap.
Used to have:
Fs1E; Yamaha V90 step through; MZ125; Harley badged Cagiva 125; Cm250T; DT250; 750 four F2; XS 650; GS400; W650; '07 iron barrel military 500; Royal Alloy TV175

Now have: '22 classic reborn


Adrian II

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Reply #7 on: October 24, 2021, 06:08:07 pm
Quote
Unfortunately the PO drilled out the top trunnion (I understand this is a common mod) so I will be ordering a few bits from Mr H and will add ht lead, boots and plug cap.

Mr H's site is where they got the idea from! See their technical notes.

A.

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Willbrunei

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Reply #8 on: October 25, 2021, 08:07:58 am
What's the thinking on this

I saw a comprehensive post that said not to drill.

Opinions?
Used to have:
Fs1E; Yamaha V90 step through; MZ125; Harley badged Cagiva 125; Cm250T; DT250; 750 four F2; XS 650; GS400; W650; '07 iron barrel military 500; Royal Alloy TV175

Now have: '22 classic reborn


Paul W

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Reply #9 on: October 25, 2021, 10:36:23 am
I read the Hitchcock’s technical article on this subject but the TLS brake on my own bike works well enough with everything left standard so I’ve not seen the need to drill the trunnion. I suspect the only advantage is that it makes shoe adjustment more straightforward; obviously if the brake isn’t set up properly the second shoe won’t be fully effective and from reading posts around the forums some do have trouble getting it to work properly.
Paul W.


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Reply #10 on: October 25, 2021, 01:03:33 pm
If you remember Tim NZ on H's forum used to rail against the modification at regular intervals, arguing that it was important to keep the two operating arms parallel.

A.
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Paul W

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Reply #11 on: October 25, 2021, 02:54:35 pm
The brake will work best when angle between the operating arms and the run of the inner cable just reaches a right angle, with the shoes pressed hard against the friction face of the drum. If the angle is either a lot less than, or just over ninety degrees, there is less than maximum torque /leverage pulling the shoes into contact and some of the “pull” on the cable is wasted effort.

On a Bullet the angle can be adjusted by repositioning the arms on their splines. Unfortunately this means that people can rebuild the brake plate incorrectly.

My first little powered two wheeler failed its first MOT test after I had rebuilt it because of this fault. The tester explained it and told me to reposition the arm because it was about 100 degrees to the cable with the brake applied. Unfortunately on that bike the arms were attached on a square ended shaft so the only way to adjust the position was by shimming the end of the shoes. I did that, went back for a retest and it passed. I had learned an early lesson and have never forgotten it.

I’ve seen so many photos of Bullets where the angle of the brake arms is way out of adjustment and wonder how poor the braking must be.
Paul W.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #12 on: October 25, 2021, 05:12:01 pm
The Hitchcocks "sticky compound" shoes made a lot of difference for me. Less fade, more "stiction". The OEM shoes are more for durability than stopping power. There is a "ridged" & "plain" variant, you'll need to pull a front brake shoe off to determine which you have. H's front brake spreader tool works a treat. - ACR -
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.


Paul W

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Reply #13 on: October 25, 2021, 07:16:49 pm
Those brake shoes are very, very expensive (more than double the price of the ones for my car despite a bike only having two shoes, rather than four).

It’s far less expensive in U.K. to send them off to Villiers who will re-line them with a modern compound.
Paul W.


AzCal Retred

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Reply #14 on: October 25, 2021, 08:22:02 pm
Those shoes are about $75 USD. They work. It's the best money you can spend, actual brakes that stop. The words "very, very expensive" start at maybe $1500 and up; $75 is chump change for safety equipment. Besides, if we were saving money, we'd all be just driving Corollas. Folks here spend hundreds for seats, tanks & fenders. $75 on a part that could save your life seems trivial. On this side of the Pond, sending parts to Villiers could cost more than new Hitchcock's shoes anyway.

PART No. 145585B ; F/BRAKE SHOE (7''), TWIN LEADING, **OUTRIGHT**, (PAIR) With locating ridge for pivot pin
£54.50
A trifecta of Pre-Unit Bullets: a Red Deluxe 500, a Green Standard 500, and a Black ES 350.