[Willie]

Previously, under a different thread title, I detailed electric start problems that appeared to be related to neutral position.  I seemed to have solved the problem, without knowing how, only to have it rear its ugly head once again!  This time I tried starting it with the float charger attached, and it started up every time.  Once warm, it started without the charger, but after getting cool, it would not.  At this point, it would also start electrically after a previous kick start.  I tested the battery, which showed a full charge, but was marginally good under load.  I installed a new battery.  Thereafter, it started right up - until I left it overnight, and then the same conditions applied.  I tested the battery in case of parasitic drain, and could find no indication of it. 

As previously posted, I have replaced the neutral position sensor and the clutch lever switch.  The bike will not start with the clutch pulled-in unless it will also start with it not in.  Now, the rocking back and forth as previously mentioned does not seem to do the trick. But, kick start, run it a minute or two.  Turn it off, and it will start electrically until it is allowed to cool down for about 5 minutes.  I can hear the fuel pump spooling up every time I turn-on the key.  I have electrically tested every component in the starting circuit without finding any defects.  When I press the starter button and get no response, the neutral light and the headlight dim just a little.

I am beginning to suspect the starter switch/button, but this is more out of desperation than deduction.  I don't understand why the electric start works after a previous kick start, or within a couple of minutes of a previous electrical start, but not otherwise.  The kick start is smooth and almost effortless - it fires the bike right up.

I have abandoned hubris and the claim of credit for the previous fix that has quickly become an "unfix".  I am open to humility and modesty in exchange for a fix that won't unfix itself.  Ideas???

And - 2009 Bullet 500 (G5) - otherwise runs like a dream...

[AzCal Retred]

Dimming tells you the battery is under load. Either actual load, or the battery is marginal right out of the box. The state of charge is higher after the bike has just ran, and also the battery is warmer & more chemically active. Maybe there's a voltage threshold issue with the start system. A circuit voltage drop can happen before or after the solenoid at any switch or connection. Methodical testing will find it, there's no magic going on.

The Start PB is activating the start solenoid, the solenoid coil wiring is a small "load" to the battery. IF the solenoid doesn't actually pick up, there's the issue. Read the voltage across the solenoid, NOT just the applied voltage. If it's not 12V or more, maybe there's your issue. As it's a DC coil, the solenoid should pick up whenever it sees at least 8V-9V. It's a "sealed box", so toss it if it doesn't work 100% every time.

You need to read overall circuit resistance of the starter button loop. It has to be well under 1 ohm as it is supposed to be just dry, clean metal contacts. 1 Ohm can be a big deal to a 12V system.

Read the battery terminal voltage when you push the start button. Unless the starter is turning, it needs to remain greater than 12V. Even with the starter running it likely needs to remain above 11V with a good battery.

Personally I'd do what I advised you to several replies back. Simplify the system until it has to work every time. There are a lot of lockouts & permissives that can block operation. Jumper them out one at a time until you find out what is causing the hold-up. YOU decide what you want back in the loop. I'm not seeing a compelling reason for fighting hinky interlocks just to satisfy Mumbai Lawyers. The sprag starter clutch has been said by several very knowledgeable responders here to absolutely not care if activated whilst the engine is already running, so there really doesn't need to be any mechanical damage concerns. Starting in gear is not an issue if you are paying attention at all, first having mechanically determined you are in neutral by rocking the machine back & forth, NOT by relying on a light, OR simply pulling in the clutch lever. "Safety" lights & switches are no substitute for pragmatic behaviors like pulling in the clutch lever or verifying you're actually in neutral every time you push the Start PB.

[Willie]

Thanks!  Can you suggest an order of priority to simplify the lock-outs and permissives?  What would be the first one to start with, and what ones should logically and easily come next?  I have no problem ignoring the Mumbai lawyers, and I am a BIG fan of easy and KISS.  Thanks for continuing to help me with this.

[AzCal Retred]

From Haggis' drawing back on "Won't Start Until You Convince It That It Is In Neutral" in the UCE section, DC goes thru the Kill Switch (A-B) to the Start PB (C-D) and on to the Start Solenoid. From the solenoid, it returns to (-)/"Ground" through two other switches.

First I'd verify that the circuit is actually laid out this way. Unplug the Solenoid, Pop off the high current leads. Set up to read (+) coming in to the Solenoid to ground(-) from the (by the WD) purple/white? wire.
1) Key ON, Kill Switch to "Kill", Push Start PB - should be nothing.
2) Key ON, Kill Switch to "RUN", Push Start PB - should be full battery terminal voltage.

The drawing shows no intermediary loads. Any voltage drop other than maybe 0.1V is from resistance. All contacts & connections have to be essentially zero resistance or they'll heat up via IxIxR restive thermal losses. If all looks proper on the solenoid (+) voltage supply side, run a ground(-) from the solenoid black wire back to the main ground. The main ground HAS TO BE clean and low resistance back to the battery. The battery terminal connection HAS TO BE clean at the battery also, or you can get a high resistance connection right at the battery (-). Hook up the solenoid to the purple/white, make sure (-) is tied to black. At this point, if the key is ON, Kill Sw. is in "RUN" position, and you push the "Start" PB, voltage is applied across the solenoid leads and it HAS TO pick up.

3) Set up VOM to read voltage drop across the solenoid coil leads. Push the Start PB, record voltage. You should hear the solenoid click. There has to be full battery voltage dropped across this coil. Any "missing" voltage is being dropped across a high resistance connection at a switch or connection.

4) Read resistance with your meter across the high current contacts when picked up. Should be well under 1 Ohm.

There are high current contacts inside the solenoid body that must also have low resistance when the coil picks up and moves the internal contact plunger. IF the plunger moves and IF the contacts make up a low resistance connection, there will be voltage applied to the starter motor and a resulting high current flow (possibly 40A?) to the starter motor.

5) Reassemble high current leads. Test starting circuit by reading voltage drop across these high current contacts while starter is turning - it should be well under 1V if they are clean and conducting properly.

The starter should turn over the engine. If it doesn't, there are a set of brushes inside the starter motor that can be dirty, stuck in their holders, or the motor commutator can be burned, or there can be open circuits inside the motor winding. As the starter seems to work well intermittently, it seems reasonable that problems IF ANY internal to the motor would be from poor/bad brush contact.

Good Hunting - ACR -

[Willie]

Wow!  Thanks!  I am a retired trauma nurse and have "jump started" more dead hearts than I care to think of, but I am going to have to read your instructions out loud - slowly - and try to hold my tongue just right while I go through these tests!  Yikes!  I am going to hazard a guess that if my dental work starts sparking and smoking I am doing something wrong?  Kick starting in public does add a touch of panache to the already vintage appeal of the motorcycle...

Seriously, I appreciate all the time and trouble you have gone to in order to help me, and I am going to give it my best try to get this right.  I am not bad with a wrench, but the electrical side of repairs has always been a mystery to me, even though the electrical physiology of the heart makes complete sense.  I will get back to you assuming I don't fubar the local power grid, or melt my fillings and weld my jaw shut! 

[tooseevee]

Wow!  Thanks!  I am a retired trauma nurse and have "jump started" more dead hearts than I care to think of, but I am going to have to read your instructions out loud - slowly - and try to hold my tongue just right while I go through these tests!  Yikes!  I am going to hazard a guess that if my dental work starts sparking and smoking I am doing something wrong?  Kick starting in public does add a touch of panache to the already vintage appeal of the motorcycle...

Seriously, I appreciate all the time and trouble you have gone to in order to help me, and I am going to give it my best try to get this right.  I am not bad with a wrench, but the electrical side of repairs has always been a mystery to me, even though the electrical physiology of the heart makes complete sense.  I will get back to you assuming I don't fubar the local power grid, or melt my fillings and weld my jaw shut! 

         One thing I did many years ago when I went through every single wire on my '08 AVL & did the best job I knew how to fix the really horrible state of the wiring that was being done at the factory during the AVL years, was to add a simple relay between the starter button and the main original starter relay (which was also replaced with a way better one).

    I had previously been inside the starter button & polished up the contact points which showed signs of arcing already. If this arcing is allowed to continue, the contacts will form a tiny burned place & start to make unreliable contact which will sometimes give you total silence when you press the button. AzCal will no doubt tell me I totally wasted my time & effort, but that's OK. I've never had a missed electric start since because there is no longer any arcing at the starter button contacts because all they do now is tell the small relay to close its contacts which closes the main relay's contacts. Overkill? Maybe.

     My only goal ever was to make the bike as bulletproof as possible electrically. All the wiring was a MESS (especially the main harness) from the factory.

     I also replaced the little glass fuses with blade types during that same time. Spares are now in the little plastic OEM glass fuse case.

     I've avoided the ES since the bike was new because I was always aware of the shitty sprag problem (a hand grenade with the pin pulled & one finger on the lever), but when I DO need the ES, I want it to WORK. Period. I'm way too old (and pissed off) to be kicking in traffic with the kind of A**holes who are on the road nowadays in cars behind me.

      Rule #1 about ES is always having a fully charged battery & getting 12V on your meter at the battery with the engine off means nothing.   

[AzCal Retred]

2CV - far be it from me to tell you that adding an interposing relay is a bad plan. The current across the start PB goes to milliamps. The larger currents are then all contained in clean, disposable relays, not running up thru the loopy Indian wiring up to the handlebar mounted, unsealed PB exposed to nature. As long as you can keep track of the additional complexity, it's all good.

I like your rule #1. Battery behavior under load can be way different than how it appears at rest.

Cheers - ACR -