Unofficial Royal Enfield Community Forum

Royal Enfield Motorcycles => Bullet Iron Barrel => Topic started by: Willbrunei on March 24, 2021, 11:26:21 am

Title: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Willbrunei on March 24, 2021, 11:26:21 am
Damn.

Went to check and set points gap today.
The locking nut stud came out of the backplate with the nut.

I took backplate off and was able to thread the stud back in.

The nut now tightens but not fully.
Feels like the stud is turning too

Can I lock it for now with an adhesive of some sort?
If so, what’s best.
Hitchcock’s are out of new backplates at the moment.

What a poorly made bit of kit!

Help!
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on March 24, 2021, 11:43:45 am
Don’t Hitchcock’s do a repair kit for this problem?

Part number 92013. £13.80?
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Adrian II on March 24, 2021, 01:01:24 pm
The problem is not the backplate but the thread in the alloy casting of the "distributor" body. As my learned friend points out, it's repairable, either with a helicoil or tapping out for an over-sized stud. Welcome to Indian metallurgy!

A.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Willbrunei on March 24, 2021, 01:03:44 pm
Thanks for the reply.

Is that the right thing for me?

Mine is the contact breaker lock nut.

These look like the advance retard plate locknuts.

Happy to stand corrected.

Mine is F on this picture
 It is a tiny threaded stud that seems to be crimped in the backplate
The condenser mount is the same type of thing


Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on March 24, 2021, 01:25:55 pm
Sorry, I’ll have to bow to the greater knowledge of those owners whose bikes have points....my iron 350 has TCI ignition and therefore no distributor is fitted.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Bilgemaster on March 24, 2021, 02:20:57 pm
Like 'PaulW', my 2005 "twin" of yours has also had an electronic ignition of unknown type fitted by a previous owner, but in view of the low cost (under $13 delivered) of new complete contact breaker plate assemblies (see, for example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Royal-Enfield-Bullet-Electra-500-350cc-Contact-Breaker-Point-Plate-12-V-141810/284213175493), I would simply replace it. Of course, while you're waiting for that slow boat to Brunei to arrive, a dab of Loctite Red (Permanent) or similar onto the screw's threads and/or a good tiny chisel mark or two across that screw and the back of the plate shown below, with perhaps just a dab or "schmear" of JB-Weld or similar epoxy or even the tiniest little spot weld or braising filed flat to help hold it might do the trick for awhile...Hell, maybe even forever.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/tpsAAOSwmYNf9apT/s-l400.jpg)
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Adrian II on March 24, 2021, 02:53:20 pm
If you want another points back plate (actually an Indian copy of the Lucas 4CA assembly used on mid-60's BSAs) from a UK supplier, Henry Price has them. 4th item down.

https://www.pricepartmotorcycles.co.uk/ourshop/cat_314575-Ignition.html

Otherwise, consider upgrading to a Pazon SureFire...

A.

Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: AzCal Retred on March 24, 2021, 04:08:20 pm
Locktite Red! Old DKW's were held together with it.

Looks like Paul W's found the kit:
PART No. 92013
REPAIR KIT FOR DISTRIBUTOR THREAD
It is very easy to strip the thread that holds the contact plate in your Bullet's distributor. This kit is the solution to this problem. It consists of: oversize tap and guide and 2 special replacement nuts. It is an easy repair for the home mechanic to make and can be carried out with the distributor in place.

This is just too easy. I'd fed ex it or ups & pay the extra. Right now it's optimally repairable. Goobering it full of Locktite may make later repairs a PIA...It'll probably be there in a week or less, eh?
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Adrian II on March 24, 2021, 05:40:53 pm
You're not paying attention, AzCal!  ;D

WB corrected us at #4 in that the problem is with a stud on the backplate itself, NOT the alloy body of the "distributor" thingy as we previously thought.
A.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: AzCal Retred on March 24, 2021, 11:17:07 pm
Solder Time!  ;D
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 25, 2021, 10:20:27 am


Otherwise, consider upgrading to a Pazon SureFire...

A.
I have never considered electronic ignition in the distributor to be an upgrade and all Bullets I have had on the road have used points. The crank mounted, self generating types we have on the two RE racers are, however, what I would consider to be an upgrade. The only road bike I have with electronic ignition is a Suzuki GT200X5, and that had it fitted at the factory.
 B.W.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Adrian II on March 25, 2021, 12:00:35 pm
Quote
The crank mounted, self generating types we have on the two RE racers are, however, what I would consider to be an upgrade.

From an ignition point of view, the PVL and Electrex World are self-generating and you don't have to worry about slop/lash in the timing gears causing timing fluctuations, so I can see an improvement on two fronts, especially for competition use.

Not so good for a roadster Bullet, however, as the only versions presently available with additional lighting coils, and which fit the Bullet, produce a rather feeble power output, 50-60W.

A.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Black fingernail on March 25, 2021, 05:50:38 pm
Solder Time!  ;D
I'm with AzCal, Just run some solder into and over the back of it.
If you don't have the equipment or skill, an electronic repair shop, or a plumber will do it.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on March 25, 2021, 10:06:34 pm
I rode my bsa with the mushroom distributor held by loctite blue for two years, if the thread has gone put some loctite on it and do it up as tight as you can with your fingers let it cure overnight, that will fix it as a temporary fix, that's just a way l know. Spray with brake cleaner first to get any oil off.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Adrian II on March 25, 2021, 10:59:00 pm
C15 or B40?

A.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on March 26, 2021, 12:04:14 am
It was a C15 with the mushroom comming out of right crank case, late 50s bike, there was a clamp that holds it but over time the thread had vibrated out, it just keep moving causing starting issues, l set the timing made some punch marks then transfered these to the outside case, cleaned all the oil off then set the timing by the dots, after loctiting the inner sleave, l had to be at work the next day to unload tons and tons of cans so l had to think on my feet, but in saying that it lasted two years until l decommissioned the bike.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Willbrunei on March 26, 2021, 01:29:15 am
Thanks all
I used a little blob of high temp epoxy - it has done the trick

Now

Timing was hard to set as I had no spare adjustment On the plate.

Stupidly, I took the cam plate off without marking it!

Now I need a method for putting the can plate on in the right place.

Question: do I need the start or end of the flat cam section
Under the points heel at the 0.8mm firing point?
Can I set the piston to 0.8mm btdc with the points gapped properly and then rotate the cam to the right place and lock it it?


Question 2

The cam plate is worn as down in the pic. Before I order a new one and a new points plate,
 what are the views here on the Boyer bransden electronic ignition from Hitchcocks?
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: AzCal Retred on March 26, 2021, 05:39:12 am
Spark happens when the points crack open. The point gap determines the coil saturation time available at higher RPM.

Compromising the gap a bit from the recommended 0.014" - 0.016" won't break anything and provides additional timing adjustment.

The cam plate indexing involves a bit of guesswork. Try your idea, sounds good to me, that's what I'd probably do. Close is good. Rotate the engine a few times & recheck timing. Ideally you'd want to end up with the gap within spec and the points plate centered within the adjustment ovals.

My take is to keep this machine as points/coil. Adding electronic ignition creates a tech-dependent black box. The Boyer is a great piece, but one of the attractions of the Bullet is the "side of the road" repairability. Points don't give much trouble, normally a bit of cleaning & adjustment every few months. A 5,000 uF cap will get you going if your battery dies and you still have points. Most electronics like steady voltage to work their magic, I don't know if the Boyer runs cap-only, maybe Adrian does. The Boyer doesn't add performance unless you add some pricey engine speed bits also. Being distributor mounted & driven, it'll still have the same gear backlash slop as your points. Crank-triggered is the only way past that.
I'd leave the old girl stock - very little happens on the Bullet that you can't physically see the problem. Finding no or bad spark on the Boyer means you'd better have a second Boyer in a box somewhere. You saw the problem with your points...which is the very reason we like these old dinosaurs.

Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on March 26, 2021, 10:45:22 am
As an alternative view, over a period of many years I eventually lost confidence in points ignition. Not because the points themselves are unreliable, but I found that condensers were and one doesn’t work for long without the other.

I’ve had Japanese ones fail as well as European, certainly not just one manufacturer (although tbh, Joe Lucas’ products were involved in quite a few breakdowns I’ve suffered).

I got into modifying mechanical advance mechanisms in distributors to suit other engine mods I did and was eventually buying three condensers at once in the hope of buying one that actually worked out of the box. Some were so bad that the points lasted only one journey.

I replaced the points with an Aldon Ignitor (sold as Pertronix in USA) which did away with points and distributor and never had a single problem after that.

I also tried an Aldon “Amethyst” electronic advance which does away with mechanical advance altogether. The distributor is locked and the advance is programmed electronically via a laptop. It also allows vacuum advance. It would probably work on a Bullet.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Adrian II on March 26, 2021, 12:42:22 pm
Quote
Question 2

The cam plate is worn as down in the pic. Before I order a new one and a new points plate,
 what are the views here on the Boyer bransden electronic ignition from Hitchcocks?

As you will have read from Bullet Whisperer's and AzCal's comments there are some advantages for sticking with points, while a good electronic system has other advantages.

If you do want to go down the Electronic ignition route, I have had both Boyer AND Pazon systems and I would stick with Pazon now. As for using a Boyer in a battery-less system, the old Mk3 Boyer and battery-less wasn't always a happy mix, their Mk4 might be more tolerant of lower starting voltages as it claims to be.

Here's the crank-mounted alternative from Electrex World, as I mentioned the output for lights etc isn't that great (LED bulb replacements would help), I don't think there would be enough output to keep the battery charged for the electric start (can't remember if yours still has one or not).

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=enfield%20royal&PN=STK%2d100D%2ehtml#SID=826

A.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on March 26, 2021, 12:49:53 pm
Well epoxy or loctite worked l was surprised it lasted 2 years, my only option would have been to strip it, l did not fancy working all night and then having an early start so l put is on the back burner until l had free time, but the loctite held it so l did not bother, it was only my everyday work bike but needed it all the same, had quite away to travel at very unusual hours and was also on notice to due any extra hours if there was any staff shortages, that's one of the bad points about being a driver when you are shifting high value goods you can't take any time out, have to be there every day 360 a year, of course that epoxy will hold it they do not need be very tight as long as you cleaned the oil off and gave metal a clean, if you want to use an incorrect back plate and want to drill new ones or holes line up or you can use a small round file to extend the slots this gives you more range to set timing.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on March 26, 2021, 01:11:11 pm
Well electronic ignition might be more reliable fit and forget, the thing about the timing you got your figures right TDC 0.8 BTDC you can use a fag paper slide it in between points it will be tight, move plate until it just moves firmly lock back plate, just like a feeler gauge, the bike will run even with the timing out, if it kicks back to far advanced, it's not that difficult or you may wish to use light l never have. A TDC gauge is very handy l in fact recently bought a new one because when l looked at my old one it had its chips, mind you about 45 years old. Some electronic ignition units have an LED signal that tells you when it fires.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: AzCal Retred on March 26, 2021, 04:00:15 pm
Search "ignition condenser", $3 tp $12 depending on the glitz factor. Cap failures haven't been my experience. It also makes things a lot easier if you put the cap near the coil. It's easier to access, de-clutters the points area, it doesn't get baked or vibrated as much, and absolutely doesn't care electrically. Keep things simple on your dinosaur. It's pretty fool-proof to carry points & condenser on a trip; basically the entire ignition system in the palm of your hand for $30, IF you even should ever need them.

I had to detail out the points maybe once each on my machines, made sure the wiper felt touched the point cam and had a bit of oil on it, verify the advance unit worked smoothly, then moved the condenser up by the coil away from engine heat. On one the factory felt had dissolved, so a scrap of wool sock and a bit of needle-nose pliers work and she was better than new with a custom merino wool wiper. After that, other that peeking in periodically to see that all looked clean, no humidity, boogers, oil or grease on the points it's been smooth sailing.

There are an unlimited number of machines out there that have been designed & built long after these dinosaurs were thought into existence in the 1940's. They presently sport appliance like reliability, svelte handling, real brakes, more than adequate  power, tubeless tyres, real electrics, EFI, ad nauseum. They are unquestionably better at reliably carrying you about, as well they should be, having the benefit of an additional 60 years of engineering behind them. The average modern 250 has more zip than these old girls, and they are mostly just gas 'n go for at least 60,000, maybe even 100,000 miles with regular oil & filter changes.

The Bullet gives you an affordable opportunity to really see for yourself what it was actually like to be a rider in the '40's & '50's. These guys rode everywhere, in practically all weather & terrain, and did it with the tech of their time. We've all read about the globe spanning trips that have been made in years past on essentially the exact same machine found in your garage. It works well enough, but does demand more of the pilot. Unless you are building a high performance race engine, points are good enough and maintain the '40's motorcycle experience.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on March 26, 2021, 05:17:36 pm
But l liked my C15 not fast l admitt but would cruise at 60, you could rebuild the whole ignition system for about 25 at the time including the coil and Plug, some of those are still around today on the original engines, a great second bike for work, you could buy one at that time for just over a week and a halves wages. A fun little bike good on fuel and handled well, but mind you l was looking at electronic ignition today and they start up on full advance no bob weights or springs so you might get the odd kick back, l think it to better to keep the bike as it was intended l never twigged that.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on March 26, 2021, 05:53:15 pm
The TCI on my iron Bullet Electra seems to work as advertised so the days of worry about points on this particular bike are non existent. I have taken the precaution of buying a spare stator and sensor assembly and a TCI module. Apart from those, there is only a magneto/genny flywheel and a standard coil to replace.

I’m still ok to deal with points ignition if I really had to...subject to ongoing proven reliability, of course.  ;)
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on March 26, 2021, 07:11:46 pm
Well it's really simple to rebuild it from tip to toe, the condenser can be an issue causing premature arcs and pitting but l have had them last over 20000 before l changed points, fitting a new condenser is not that common and they are dirt cheap, as l remember back in the day you could buy new back plate and points for about £8.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on March 26, 2021, 08:05:42 pm
Karl, who was your reply intended for?
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on March 27, 2021, 01:44:09 pm
Anyone interested in points and ignition.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Bullet Whisperer on March 27, 2021, 01:49:29 pm
Anyone interested in points and ignition.
Yes, swear by them myself. Even my Trident still has three sets of points in it.
 B.W.

 https://youtu.be/HD5YSOnFc7M
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Willbrunei on April 09, 2021, 04:51:41 am
Quick update on this from me.

The epoxy has held for a couple of longish rides so that seems fine.

I was able to successfully set the timing by the method I suggested by setting the points gap, mounting the plate over the auto advance, manually setting the position of the cam and then tightening everything up.

I initially was using a 45 quid dial guage and adapter but it was such a PITA that I reverted to the indian made timing tool with the big splodgy markings on it. I was able to set TDC and approximate 0.8mm TDC so much quicker with this than the flailing needle of the dial guage. I guess trying to be too accurate on these od dinos is a waste of time (and money).

Anyway, it started and as I said, ran well and doesnt pink. (untill the clang from the gearbox - but that is a different thread)

I have also decidd to stick with points as they are the right thing for this bike and the reason I have it is for the "analog" experience - the less electrickery the better.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: AzCal Retred on April 09, 2021, 08:40:05 am
Kudos to you! Your methodology worked well enough, I'll replicate it when I'm in that position. I like points, at least you can see most of the ignition system operation. As you say, these aren't Indy cars, so close enough is good enough. B.W. seems to have no problem making his Asbo rocket ships fly using points.

To me that's their charm, big obvious pieces that move real slow. You can time them alongside the road with your eyeballs & a bit of twig and be very close. I still can't get over the measurementless "adjusting the valves cold based on spin" thing, but it works. Appropriate technology.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on April 10, 2021, 09:57:27 pm
Well the thing l like about it relates to the fact it's simple electronics easy to understand, l rode with points for decades and decades they gave very little trouble you could not fix within 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on April 11, 2021, 09:53:47 am
But then on some vehicles they needed fixing quite often.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: ddavidv on April 11, 2021, 01:52:22 pm
Points fiddling isn't that bad provided they are easy to access. Obviously on Bullets they are. When they are on the rear of a V8 engine (looking at you, Chevrolet) then much more of a PITA.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: cyrusb on April 11, 2021, 02:12:11 pm
But then on some vehicles they needed fixing quite often.
Which vehicles would that be? It's not the points, it's the operator. Not lubing the cam is the root cause of point failure. That system on a v8 is the same system on our single. That leave our points 1/8 the work to do. Yes, the silver eventually burns off the contacts, particularly if your condenser is bad, but lack of lube brings you down way before that.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on April 11, 2021, 03:46:57 pm
Nothing to do with the operator in my case; I find that quite offensive. Points are easy enough to look after. I first started working on engines using them in about 1969 and I still have a "dwell meter" in my tool cupboard and I have a 1930 engine that still uses points - I've just got it going after many years of it sitting idle. I did grease the cam....

What makes points fail is poor/faulty quality condensers. They either work well, or fail, then the points rapidly burn. I just grew tired of replacing them. NOT on an Enfield, btw - mine is an iron engine but with factory TCI, so no distributor fitted. I'm not sorry it doesn't have one. I posted earlier how I was having to buy two or three condensers at a time for my little car in the hope of finding one that worked out of the box. Modern ones seem to be less reliable than in the past - possibly because of their place of origin.

Some years ago I built my own competition car from the chassis up, including all the wiring. The engine was re-manufactured (as back to factory specifications or better, not just reconditioned). Having jumped through all the UK/EU rules book hoops to get it road legal (it passed the Single Vehicle Approval Test first time, not many do) I took it out for it's first road run, did about 100 miles. The following day it wouldn't start. The points had blackened due to a failed (brand new) condenser. I went through ten years of similar points failures, ALL related to poor quality condensers, before switching to an Aldon/Pertronix Ignitor, which is an electronic trigger which replaces the points altogether and needs no condenser. The breakdowns were cured forever, it was more or less fit and forget, as per in all modern cars.

I've had three other occasions where condenser failures have caused me breakdowns. Once in a newly serviced Nissan (that one was really difficult because we had a caravan, three kids and a dog involved - coming back from a holiday. Another was in my Ford and another in a Vauxhall/Opel.

About fifteen years ago I drove the car 95 miles to compete in an off-road trial. I met another competitor who had built the same type of car as mine, with the same engine. His car arrived on a trailer. He came over to compare notes and in discussion told me how unreliable electronic ignition was, in his opinion. An hour later his engine cut out on a hill section. After I'd finished my section I went over to offer any assistance. His points had burned out! I offered him the points setup I carried in my spares packup but unfortunately it was a later type than he used with a different design and it wouldn't fit his distributor. That was the end of his day because he had no other spares with him.

I've never had a failure of an electronic ignition system. My son's Honda Integra did have a temporary failure a few days ago but this was caused by a hose clip tail contacting wiring to the coil, wearing through the insulation and shorting it out. He was back on the road in half an hour.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: cyrusb on April 11, 2021, 04:46:37 pm
Nothing to do with the operator in my case; I find that quite offensive. Points are easy enough to look after. I first started working on engines using them in about 1969 and I still have a "dwell meter" in my tool cupboard and I have a 1930 engine that still uses points - I've just got it going after many years of it sitting idle. I did grease the cam....

What makes points fail is poor/faulty quality condensers. They either work well, or fail, then the points rapidly burn. I just grew tired of replacing them. NOT on an Enfield, btw - mine is an iron engine but with factory TCI, so no distributor fitted. I'm not sorry it doesn't have one. I posted earlier how I was having to buy two or three condensers at a time for my little car in the hope of finding one that worked out of the box. Modern ones seem to be less reliable than in the past - possibly because of their place of origin.

Some years ago I built my own competition car from the chassis up, including all the wiring. The engine was re-manufactured (as back to factory specifications or better, not just reconditioned). Having jumped through all the UK/EU rules book hoops to get it road legal (it passed the Single Vehicle Approval Test first time, not many do) I took it out for it's first road run, did about 100 miles. The following day it wouldn't start. The points had blackened due to a failed (brand new) condenser. I went through ten years of similar points failures, ALL related to poor quality condensers, before switching to an Aldon/Pertronix Ignitor, which is an electronic trigger which replaces the points altogether and needs no condenser. The breakdowns were cured forever, it was more or less fit and forget, as per in all modern cars.

I've had three other occasions where condenser failures have caused me breakdowns. Once in a newly serviced Nissan (that one was really difficult because we had a caravan, three kids and a dog involved - coming back from a holiday. Another was in my Ford and another in a Vauxhall/Opel.

About fifteen years ago I drove the car 95 miles to compete in an off-road trial. I met another competitor who had built the same type of car as mine, with the same engine. His car arrived on a trailer. He came over to compare notes and in discussion told me how unreliable electronic ignition was, in his opinion. An hour later his engine cut out on a hill section. After I'd finished my section I went over to offer any assistance. His points had burned out! I offered him the points setup I carried in my spares packup but unfortunately it was a later type than he used with a different design and it wouldn't fit his distributor. That was the end of his day because he had no other spares with him.

I've never had a failure of an electronic ignition system. My son's Honda Integra did have a temporary failure a few days ago but this was caused by a hose clip tail contacting wiring to the coil, wearing through the insulation and shorting it out. He was back on the road in half an hour.
Wow,you offend easily. Keep your rubbing block greased, but you knew that.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Karl Fenn on April 11, 2021, 07:42:04 pm
I think if you buy a crap condenser you are asking for trouble, but the savings on points ignition is cheap compared to electronic, you can replace the whole lot once a year for just a few quid anyway.
Title: Re: Help ignition points issue
Post by: Paul W on April 11, 2021, 09:30:59 pm
TCI ignition has no rubbing block but the one in the 1930 J.A.P. engine I just sorted out will probably outlast me now. It was still intact after 90 years or so. The points gap on the magneto (and that of the spark plug) was set too wide, so the cam or the heel certainly hadn't worn out. The spark was very weak so it wouldn't run.

I only ever bought OE condensers and points, for obvious reasons but if they are rubbish quality there's not much more one can do apart from carry yet another spare set and hope for the best. Which is what I put up with for years. The condenser in the Nissan I had break down on me was only fitted three weeks before it failed and shorted out. Lesson learned.

Most Bullet owners (myself included) don't use their bike for primary transport or ride many miles in a year so it probably makes little difference to them. I'm just happy, based on my own experiences, to have bought a traditional looking iron barrel that doesn't even have a distributor fitted. There's nothing to service in the TCI ignition system on this bike apart from ensuring the external wiring harness and connectors are looked after.