Author Topic: Primary chain questions (Read 7810 times)

UncleErnie · **on:** January 11, 2011, 11:21:46 pm

Is it really possible I ned a new chain? How many miles (average of course) do people expect to get from a primary chain?

If the gear teeth look good, can I just replace the chain?

When you measure slack, do you just press down on the chain, or move it up and down?

Can I get the pressure shoe re-lined, or do I have to buy a whole shoe?

I'm going to put a lightly longer adjuster bolt in there to get another 1500 miles from the chain >BUT< no one I talk to can believe my chain is stretched out and usleless after 12,000 miles. Seems kind of extravigant to have to change chains that often. Do I have any choices on quality?

GreenMachine · **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2011, 11:46:09 pm

i adjusted mine for the hell of it a year ago...loose just a wee bit....snidal gave the impression that once adjusted and with atf fluid in there u wouldn't have to adjust maybe never. .i put the bike upright and put in neutral and turn the rear wheel and checked for tight spot and loose spot and adjusted for something in the middle...their is a exact measurement that snidal states but its ridiculously hard to see when pushing up the primary chain from the bottom...lets put it this way..its not as loose as the drive chain.... its pretty much a lookie why spinning the rear wheel...hope that gets u started...

ERC · **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2011, 11:50:27 pm

On mine I do the full play is what you can move it up and down for the full play of the chain. If it's 1/4" then 1/8th up and 1/8 down. ERC.

cyrusb · **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2011, 12:37:00 am

You can add me the list of people that dont believe it. Push down and pull up on the chain and measure that distance. How about a pic? What is your deflection (in inches)?I believe that chain should last at least a couple of top ends.

UncleErnie · **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2011, 04:43:56 am

I'm moving (still) and can't get pictures out of my camera yet. I know I should wait until I have some, but I wanted to get this done while it's too cold / snowy to ride.

I set the chain for a half inch of play up and down.
At 11K, my adjuster bolt is all the way out and the rubber on the shoe is worn about half way where the grooves are worn in.
I worry about the chain getting too slack and wearing something somewhere while rubbing. I went and got a slightly longer bolt that I'll modify to look like the stock one's head- which is rounded off so it will turn in that "well"- or whatever it's called.

So- the bolt length -or lack of what's left- is basically what got me wondering how much the chain is stretching. Hopefully I can take a picture tomorrow after I figure out how to convert my conputer to wifi. I'm using my roommates computer now...

GreenMachine · **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2011, 03:38:37 pm

your trying to cheat with the longer bolt at the bottom vice replacing the chain...I only did the adjustment because after taking the cover off and cleaning out the primary compartment with a clean rag I noticed when looking underneath that it looked like the primary chain might have been slapping the top pf the case.(I said maybe) . I notice ridges in the case metal that resembled the shape of the actual chain...Of course it might had been my imagination and maybe thats the way the top of the case is made but I had the bike on centerstand and read the Snidal manual and readjusted the chain with the bottom adjuster to what I thought was the idea that Snida was getting at...Its been a year and I'll check it again in the Spring when I change the fluid (cheap enough)..I do remember I didn't have to adjust it all that much..I don't know why u far up on the adjuster bolt..That primary chain is tough and wide and it would take alot to stretch it vice the drive chain...Something is wrong..

1Blackwolf1 · **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2011, 05:33:35 pm

I'd say at some point it was over adjusted. Can't say on Enfields yet but on H-Ds I've had they lasted quite a while (think I may have replaced two on the three I've had with right at 60000 miles collect mileage). Of course you may have gotten the Monday after a hangover weekend part on yours. But I would say it definitely should have lasted longer.

GreenMachine · **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2011, 05:59:13 pm

maybe Uncle Ernie rides hard..I don't know...It would take a long time to stretch that chain....per snidal manual, 1/ 4" - 6 mm of slack from top of chain..rotate the chain and inspect for loosness/tightness along the length of the chain...This can be \done by kick starting..note..do not start the bike..just go though the kickstarting and inspect the chain.....the adjustment is done via the slipper adjuster on the bottom...

Hey further notes that unless the bike had numerous miles on it or has been run without lubrication that the chain is unlikely to need replacement...If their is no slack left in the adjustment then replacement is necessary under "heavy mechanical" section of book.
He doesn't say to fabricate a longer adjustment bolt to raise the chain higher to take out the slack. As u can see 1/4" isn't much slack but not tight as a rubber band either...

I think Uncle ran it without lubrication...He seems to be that kinda guy and like it dry..

1Blackwolf1 · **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2011, 06:05:36 pm

Quote from: GreenMachine on January 12, 2011, 05:59:13 pm

maybe Uncle Ernie rides hard..I don't know...It would take a long time to stretch that chain....per snidal manual, 1/ 4" - 6 mm of slack from top of chain..rotate the chain and inspect for loosness/tightness along the length of the chain...This can be \done by kick starting..note..do not start the bike..just go though the kickstarting and inspect the chain.....the adjustment is done via the slipper adjuster on the bottom...

Hey further notes that unless the bike had numerous miles on it or has been run without lubrication that the chain is unlikely to need replacement...If their is no slack left in the adjustment then replacement is necessary under "heavy mechanical" section of book.
He doesn't say to fabricate a longer adjustment bolt to raise the chain higher to take out the slack. As u can see 1/4" isn't much slack but not tight as a rubber band either...

I think Uncle ran it without lubrication...He seems to be that kinda guy and like it dry..

OUCH!!!!

UncleErnie · **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2011, 10:54:31 pm

Beans.
Talked to Mr vince today. Seems like maybe the chain wore out too soon because I keep it too tight. He said, "You probably adjust it every time you change your oil, huh?" Dammit man- get out of my garage!

Apparently both the clutch and the waddya-callit both have to come off.
PITA- but at least I'm not riding anywhere soon.

GreenMachine · **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2011, 11:00:21 pm

yup got to replace it...vince is right in telling ya to forget the other idea...might want to check on tools needed to get things outta of the way...at least u will have fresh chain and fluid..

cyrusb · **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2011, 12:41:55 am

It's a good time to switch to a 19 countershaft sprocket, or somethiing like that.

1Blackwolf1 · **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2011, 12:50:48 am

And a good time to pull out the sprag if it's munched. I think you said it was weak or out last summer. Time to gut the remains.

cyrusb · **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2011, 12:56:28 am

Is the lean burn primary chain adjuster the same as a classic? You have a lean burn right? I've allways assumed they were the same but I bet thats wrong.

GreenMachine · **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2011, 01:03:15 am

don''t quote me..i would think its the same 5 speed transmission,,,

1Blackwolf1 · **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2011, 01:44:27 am

Quote from: GreenMachine on January 13, 2011, 01:03:15 am

don''t quote me..i would think its the same 5 speed transmission,,,

DING, DING, DING we have a winner.

UncleErnie · **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2011, 02:05:33 pm

I remembered the sprag. I've had (another) new one sitting on the shelf for a long time... ,aybr I should put the new one in and just not try to use it. May as well. I don't trust them anymore, though...

AS I've already replaced the sprag once, I assume I still have all the tools necessary. I will borrow a friends electric impact wrench again, too.

I changed my primary oil every 1500 miles- and check the chain. I guess my neuroses messed up the ding-dong chain. I guess I've been keeping it too tight.
Vince said I should take it to an Enfield mechanic to replace, so I can see what the proper set-up is, but I'M BROKE. Plus -to tell the truth- I don't know if I trust Enfield mechanics close enough to take the bike to. They just don't do enough business to see much action, and most of the people who own them don't ride them enough. (One guy does, but I don't really know him)

I need to take a picture and see what you folks think about whether or not I'll need new sprockets, too. They really look OK to me, but I guess I'm not the good judge I thought i was.

GreenMachine · **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2011, 02:31:52 pm

just curious...u change fluid every 1500 miles...have u notice any debris/metal in the fluid as its draining or inspection when wiping out with a clean rag

If you look at the slipper adjuster, their is a bit of lining on the shoe...It actually looks like a inverted brake shoe..Is it gone and just bare metal.....If so you have to order a new one...

1Blackwolf1 · **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2011, 02:36:26 pm

Quote from: UncleErnie on January 13, 2011, 02:05:33 pm

I remembered the sprag. I've had (another) new one sitting on the shelf for a long time... ,aybr I should put the new one in and just not try to use it. May as well. I don't trust them anymore, though...

AS I've already replaced the sprag once, I assume I still have all the tools necessary. I will borrow a friends electric impact wrench again, too.

I changed my primary oil every 1500 miles- and check the chain. I guess my neuroses messed up the ding-dong chain. I guess I've been keeping it too tight.
Vince said I should take it to an Enfield mechanic to replace, so I can see what the proper set-up is, but I'M BROKE. Plus -to tell the truth- I don't know if I trust Enfield mechanics close enough to take the bike to. They just don't do enough business to see much action, and most of the people who own them don't ride them enough. (One guy does, but I don't really know him)

I need to take a picture and see what you folks think about whether or not I'll need new sprockets, too. They really look OK to me, but I guess I'm not the good judge I thought i was.

One thing I was taught over many years of mechanical work was that every manufacturer is different. Quality standards for parts vary from manufacturer to manufacturer greatly. Even when manufactured by the same company parts have a pretty wide parameter field of acceptability.

I have a perfect example of such thought patterns in a semi-modern application. My 1991 Geo Tracker uses a 315cm belt for the generator/fan drive, and a 320cm belt for the p/s drive. The ps/ belt seems to be at the end of its' travel (ie loose). I used the old 315cm belt from the generator and have plenty of adjustment left to allow for proper deflection. The reason the company went to a 320cm belt was to stop people from running the belt to tight and burning up the p/s steering pump. Guess GM didn't even trust factory mechanics to adjust belts correctly.

Learning is built on a pretty steep learning curve sometimes..you definitely know now what not to do in the future. Give yourself a break..you learned something new, and get to spend quality time with your machine. Could have been something more expensive.

Blltrdr · **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2011, 05:07:49 pm

If you had it adjusted so taut that the chain wore through the rubber on the slipper you are probably OK as long as you didn't grind the chain through the rubber into the metal. I would replace the slipper and buy the adjuster bolt that has the rubber dampener on it. This after market adjuster will take up a little more slack than the stock one.

GreenMachine · **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2011, 05:29:59 pm

i have the rubber damper in the box with the rest of the enfield stuff..They say it cuts down on vibration...I'll installl it whenever I get around too it...

The Garbone · **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2011, 10:01:16 pm

Eh, I would just leave the sprag out and keep the spare around just in case you decide to sell. I would hate to replace a sprag I don't use just to nuke it on a "oh shit" moment...

UncleErnie · **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:14:21 am

Re fluid and garbage; except for having to remove sprag teeth, the fluid itself has always been relatively clean. I keep my drain pan fairly clean so I can look around in old oil.

Mr Blackwell, I suppose I learned that the manual I was using was not correct? I'm pretty sure I was keeping the slack in spec. Having had BMW's most of my life, chains in general still intimidate me somewhat.

The ruber on the shoe is about half-way worn through- no danger of hiting metal.
Part of my original question; can that be re-lined, or do I have to order a whole new shoe?

Mr Garbone, if I do put the new sprag in, I definitely will not be using it. Strictly for possible resale- as you suggest. I figure as long as I've got everything apart- why not? Mr Vince says I have to take both sides out to put a new chain on. I'm so excited.
not

Blltrdr · **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:30:50 am

I can't imagine the cost of the part would be more expensive than having it relined. Isn't it vulcanized and if so who would do it and for what price?

GreenMachine · **Reply #24 on:** January 14, 2011, 03:31:06 pm

Sounds like your slipper adjuster is okay then. Assuming money isn't a issue I would replace it with a new chain...Still hard to believe that u stretched that dam thing with 11k on the bike..Like I said Snidal manual makes it sound like that it will last a very long time...U sound like a guy who needs the belt installed vice the primary chain but that gets expensive....u have some work ahead of you..u might want to put out the effort and see who that other guy is with the enfield in the local area (ashville/am i right) and see if he knows someone who might tackle the job correctly (i say correctly and if not u no better off doing it yourself and taking your time and if u have problems get on the board here)...What we don't want to see happen is u take it apart and f it all up and make a mess of it....Well some of us don't...Their maybe other with a mental pic or too that I rather not go into right now....

chris-bartlett · **Reply #25 on:** November 12, 2013, 07:23:17 pm

I was at 19,000 miles and my primary chain kept slipping teeth on the sprocket if I took off too fast. I opened up the primary and found the chain to have some slack, but the tensioner was at the highest point. I added a rubber piece to make it a little tighter. Now, it only makes an occasional ticking sound when idling, but it drives great. Here's what that looks like.
- Is this bad?
- Do I need to replace the primary chain?
- Can you change the primary chain without removing the clutch and stator? (like removing a link and hooking it to the old chain, then pulling it around?)

motomataya · **Reply #26 on:** November 12, 2013, 09:24:39 pm

Yes you need at least a new chain. It only comes off with the sprockets. you need pull the clutch and the sprocket off the crank.

GreenMachine · **Reply #27 on:** November 13, 2013, 01:19:34 am

Chris. That tensioner looks crooked to me and so does the deflection of the primary chain...looks pretty dry and cruddy...did you lose alot of fluid when u crack the cover? +1 on what motto says.

ROVERMAN · **Reply #28 on:** November 13, 2013, 01:48:40 pm

+1 & +1.

Blltrdr · **Reply #29 on:** November 14, 2013, 05:13:37 pm

Quote from: chris-bartlett on November 12, 2013, 07:23:17 pm

I was at 19,000 miles and my primary chain kept slipping teeth on the sprocket if I took off too fast. I opened up the primary and found the chain to have some slack, but the tensioner was at the highest point. I added a rubber piece to make it a little tighter. Now, it only makes an occasional ticking sound when idling, but it drives great. Here's what that looks like.
- Is this bad?
- Do I need to replace the primary chain?
- Can you change the primary chain without removing the clutch and stator? (like removing a link and hooking it to the old chain, then pulling it around?)

The slipper bolt rest that is cast into the inner primary cover is different from any I have seen. Doesn't mean it's not right but it is surely different. Is your Bullet an Indian home model that was brought to the States Chris? Also your cover gasket is twisted and it looks like it's been weeping/leaking where the twist is located on the bottom under the alternator. You will need a new one. Because of the difference in inner primary casting you may need to research because the slipper and bolt might be different. Chain does look dry. There seems to be a lot of surface rust also. It looks like you have been running without oil for a while. Hopefully someone can chime in on that difference that I am pointing out about the inner cover bolt rest. I will include a pic.

barenekd · **Reply #30 on:** November 14, 2013, 06:07:31 pm

The chain is shot. The front sprocket is probably flat, too. If you say it was jumping teeth, that's generally because there aren't any. There is no master link on primary chains
Bare

GreenMachine · **Reply #31 on:** November 14, 2013, 10:07:56 pm

Blltrdr: Mine is a 06 iron and the slipper is straight-up when I last noticed this past Summer...I've only had to adjust it once and that was for shits n grins....The deflection of the chain appears excessive but it would be good to know what year/model it is...Looks like the primary may have run out of fluid for awhile...The bottom of the cases tend to weep especially if over tighten after a fluid change and over time , well u know the drill....What drew me to the post was Uncle Ernie started it.....GM