Author Topic: Well that was an adventure - piston  (Read 3860 times)

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aleman

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on: August 19, 2009, 11:59:40 pm
So, I'm feeling better after ruining my 535cc piston.   New piston and re-worked barrel is in and I kicked it over this morning.  After quite a bit of investigation I'm still not completely sure why this happened.  But I have learned a few things.

What happened:

700miles on new barrel and piston.  Bike was reliable and running great.  On an 80deg day I had traveled about 40 miles at 40 to 50mph, 30 minute break, then about 20 minutes at 60 mph(65 speedo).  Sudden loss of compression and I slowed to a stop.  Engine would still kick over.  I wasn't yet sure what happened but was pretty concerned.  Oil blew out through head gasket-not good.

Ironically my new oil cooler from Ace was waiting on my door stop when I returned from this little adventure.  Might not have prevented this, but sure wouldn't have hurt.

(omit trailering story)

So back home I took the top end apart to find a piston that looked like it went through re-entry attached to the shuttle, on the back side only.  I bought this kitted from Hichcocks, .006 clearance and gaps verified,  so I started with them.  Allan was out of town, but acralite sent a bunch of pictures of pistons that looked just like mine - stated reason: lack of cooling and/or oil, but not clearance.  I'm not so sure about that.

Our host, Kevin Mahoney, who has experience with the 535 set-up, was kind enough to call me personally.  A couple of things that he emphasized was that you need at least a 1,000 on the barrel before you push it at all.  And also consider using synthetic after the first oil dump.  I got some advice from ace.cafe about honing out the cylinder, etc.  I was then lucky enough to find an excellent machinist, not just a guy with a machine shop, but a machinist who specializes in engine work/honing.  He works on autos and motorcycles and was also very experienced in doing larger clearance "performance" type work.  He honed it out to .006 clearance exactly(thermally stabilized measurements) to fit my new JE piston.  Apparently  JE is "the shit" of North American piston manufacturers and it has some more modern features.  No marks left on barrel either.  He charged me very little for this.

I then took apart and cleaned/inspected the entire timing cover and oil pump assembly and top end banjo assembly.  I verified ring gaps and put it back together with  assembly lube.

So, long post.  Sorry.  I'm not sure what the point of this post is beyond relating some experience that may be helpful to others.  But I think when doing this kind of work it's important to have a good machinist involved, especially if you don't have adequate tools for the measurements (measuring the inside of a bore to ten-thousands of an inch - with great accuracy - is not easy).  This sort of mod isn't as drop in as it sounds.

Also, I have a new appreciation of the unforgiving nature of sticking a forged (rather than cast) alloy piston in an air-cooled engine.  If you want to go out to the margins, youv'e got to take it slow and be extremely careful with your work.

Anyway, I was really happy with this mod and I'm giving it another go.  Also, my machinist has recommended that I dump the oil after the first ten or twenty miles just to get out the assembly crud, metal etc.  As always, any comments about any of this would be appreciated.

Aleman
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ace.cafe

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Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 12:17:07 am
It's a matter of wearing off the crosshatch in the hone, IMO.
During break-in, the crosshatch of the hone is worn down as the rings mate to the bore.
While this is going on, there is reduced surface contact between the rings and the bore.
This ring/bore interface is where a large portion of the piston cooling takes place.
The piston cools out thru the rings, to the bore, which then dissipates the heat out the fins on the barrel.
With a crosshatch hone in there, the rings aren't getting full contact to the bore, and piston cooling is inhibited.
If the piston gets hotter than it can move out thru the rings, it starts to heat soak.
Then it expands more than it is designed to do, and you seize up.

That's why the break-in is important.
An alloy barrel can also be a big help, because a typical rule-of-thumb is that the cooling system has to dissipate about the same amount of heat as the the engine horsepower is producing. So, more hp, more cooling needed.

Some additional oil splash under the piston crown is helpful, and the cooler that oil is, the better it will help cool the piston. Varying the throttle openings when riding helps to pull some oil up under the piston to help cool it, on the decelerations. So, decelerate regularly, or at least occasionally.

When the crosshatch is worn down and you have full ring contact, you should have sufficient heat transfer to cool, but the iron barrel is marginal, because it is a carry-over from the 350. The alloy barrel cools better, particularly for a 535 with high compression and more power output.

Use premium gas to help avoid any detonation that would quickly overheat the piston.
Use several degrees retarded ignition advance, so that your full advance is limited to about 30*BTDC when the weights are fully swung out at full advance.
Don't run lean.
Don't lug.

Hills are your enemy during this time period.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 12:20:58 am by ace.cafe »
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aleman

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Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 10:59:39 pm
Thanks for your input Ace.  So it's not just the added friction of new rings, but the lack of surface contact for conducting heat out to the barrel.  I wasn't thinking about it that way. 

I have done about everything I can think of to encourage cooling:
- alloy barrel
- HO oil pumps
- your oil cooler (looking forward to getting it on there)
- I even have a finned header pipe heat sink, and finned alloy tappet cover.
Just to ask, Is there anything else that can be done here?

By the way, back in the day how did the  BSA's, Nortons, and other big push-rod singles do differently to address cooling for peformance work?  Are there
fundamental differences in engine architecture between these makes of that era?

aleman
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ace.cafe

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Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 11:45:21 pm
Yes, there are fundamental differences in architecture between the Bullet and the other bikes you mention.

But, there are also similarities.

The BSA Gold Star and Norton Manx are racing motorcycles, built to be that way from the ground up.
They pushed them till they broke, and made changes for the next year's model.
These were the cream of the Brit racing industry, along with the AJS/Matchless.

The Bullet was a commuter bike.
But, the Bullet has road manners around town, that you won't get from any Gold Star or Manx, unless you de-tune it for around town riding.

So, it's a matter of building for the intended use.

The CMW/Hitchcock Performance Crankshaft with steel con-rod and Alpha roller big end is an almost dead-on copy of the Gold Star bottom end. If you want to have a bottom end that is comparable to the Gold Star, you can have it.

Alloy barrels are also something that they have, and you can get one of them for the Bullet too.

There are some things they have which we just can't get, because of design differences. But we can get a pretty healthy output from a Bullet if we build it with the right stuff, and do all the parts fitting and assembly with knowledge.

For example, you could run a short break-in time, with a barrel bored on torque plates,after it has been stress-relieved properly, and hot bored and low-honed to the precise clearances. That takes alot of the movement out of the barrel, and keeps it round when it's torqued on and after it heats up. Run it in for a couple warm-up laps, and go racing.
The problem is that there's about $400 worth of machine work doing that, and most people don't want to spend that kind of money. At least, not on reliability work. They normally "expect" it to be able to take it. And that's where the disappointment begins.

And this brings me to one of the most salient points about Bullet performance work.
When you get into performance modifications, the Bullet is no different than any other engine. It ceases to be an "economy" bike, and it becomes a performance bike.
And at that point, money needs to flow. You can't cut corners on performance building. It has to be done right, which is often expensive, or you pay the piper.
The biggest mistake that Bullet owners make is trying to keep considering the bike as an econo platform and skip the expensive stuff in performance modding.
The typical mantra is, "I'm not going to put $2k into the bottom end of a bike I only paid $3k for."  That's the beginning of many a sad story.
Wasn't very long ago, there was somebody here who was disgusted with knocking out a big end bearing after modding the top end and leaving the bottom end stock.
Well, that's to be expected. That was no big surprise.
You leave the econo world when you start building for power.

What you're doing is good. Do the best machine work you can.
Build the bottom end, or you'll pay for it later.
You'll never get enough oil flow in a Bullet, so you have to decelerate regularly and don't hold high speeds for long periods, to keep the piston heat under control.
Do things to reduce pumping losses, like returning to the old-style breather, and reduce friction losses where you can.
Have an alloy barrel.
Get good breathing in and out. Don't run lean. Set ignition timing proper for your mods.
Do everything to convert wasted heat into power. Run efficiently.
Lower aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance.

There's alot you can do.
Many people are put-off by certain things like low bars or aero-fairings, but they greatly reduce loads at higher road speeds, and put less work on the engine.
"Sitting up and begging" riding position might seem "retro", but it's the worst thing you can do for loading up the engine unnecessarily. It's a "barn door" as far as aerodynamics go, and it makes your engine work harder to achieve higher speeds.
It might work out fine for a 100ci Harley, but it ain't too good for a half-liter antique single trying to cruise at 70mph while sitting  up bolt-straight.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that not everybody understands what it takes to make a little bike go. It's like fishing on light tackle. Sure, you could land a tuna on light tackle, but you'd better know what you're doing. You're not gonna just reel it in as if it was on a trolling cable.
It takes alot of skill. More skill in fact, than trying to make a big bike go fast. Much less room for error.
But, it's a real challenge too.

You might say that the Bullet is an expert tuner's bike, at a beginner bike price.
It might be cheap to buy and run stock, but if you want to make it fly without blowing up, you'd better know what you're doing, and pay attention to the details. Details that alot of folks never even heard of.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 11:53:23 pm by ace.cafe »
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aleman

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Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 11:58:26 pm
Thanks a lot ace for your reply.  Very, very interesting stuff.  Attention to detail is everything.  I always enjoy a challenge and have a life-long habit of setting my self up for a good healthy learning curve.  I appreciate your help.

My bike is happy again, which is good.  Bottom end improvement has not left my mind.  Good luck with your other projects.

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cyrusb

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Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 12:40:17 am
Picture of the piston assembly perhaps?
2005E Fixed and or Replaced: ignition, fenders,chainguard,wires,carb,headlight,seat,tailight,sprockets,chain,shock springs,fork springs, exhaust system, horn,shifter,clutch arm, trafficators,crankcase vent.


aleman

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Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 05:58:53 pm
Cyrus-b, I have pictures that I sent to Allan Hitchcock.   I haven't yet posted a picture to this forum, but let me see what I can do.

aleman
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72westie

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Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 06:17:44 pm
I agree with Ace. If you plan on doing any real performance work, get a alpha bearing in the bottom end first. We use a carrilo rod on ours with the alpha bearing and it works great. It is still possible to break a alpha bearing though.

This happened in Colorado back in 2005, I went to downshift from 4th into 3rd at the end of the back straight during a race and when I left the clutch out, the bike revved to what seemed like 15 thousand rpms. Somehow, when I shifted, it missed 3rd gear and 2nd gear and ended up in 1st gear. Needles to say, there isn't any Enfield out there that can rev that high. I pulled the clutch in as quick as I had let it out, but the damage had already been down...
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Ice

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Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 06:56:54 pm
Fantastic pictures 72westie. Easily worth the proverbial "thousand words".

Thank you.
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72westie

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Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 07:05:33 pm
Hell, I am still running the same Rod that broke this pin. That rod's been through a lot.
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aleman

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Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 11:24:44 pm
Thanks for the "visual" 72westi.   

I'm not completely clear on the differences between the different crank options available, so I decided to do a new post.  I'd be interested in anything you had to say.

Thanks
aleman
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Peter

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Reply #11 on: August 22, 2009, 02:39:21 am
Thanks for the "visual" 72westi.   

I'm not completely clear on the differences between the different crank options available, so I decided to do a new post.  I'd be interested in anything you had to say.

Thanks
aleman

The talk regarding the bottom end is amusing but really a little off topic.

I'd be interested in how you dealt with the fifth stud (the one not going into the crankcase).
I spent some time looking and pondering that particular stud and came to the conclusion that the design is not sound. So I decided not to treat it like the proper studs and just tightened it reasonably and left it at that.
I do run synthetic and I was careful running the Hitchcock kit in according to my personal ideas about running in something like that.
Steady 60 for twenty minutes are not in my book during running in (that's scary to me) but early full throttle bursts (not scared about those at all, got to seat those rings somehow ;D) are in my book.
I also don't think that 1000 miles of babying will necessarily result in a properly broken in top.
The most likely reason why your piston seized is because you held a reasonable steady speed for an unreasonably long time (unreasonable only because it wasn't broken in yet). 


Peter


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Reply #12 on: August 22, 2009, 07:50:00 am
HI aleman,,,,IM sent.
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aleman

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Reply #13 on: August 22, 2009, 05:36:07 pm
Thanks Peter, I guess at the time I was thinking at 700miles I was mostly through the break in - and I had pretty much been babying it.  But that was my mistake, I guess.

I just torqued down the fifth stud like the others - not too much, 20 ft/lbs.

So, you are a synthetic advocate.  Interesting.  Maybe, I'll do search.

aleman
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Kevin Mahoney

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Reply #14 on: August 22, 2009, 06:21:08 pm
I have personally seized two 535 pistons. In both cases it was entirely self induced. An iron barrel takes a long time to break in properly. It is just a fact of life that an unbroken-in iron barrel can easily generate more heat than it can dissipate. Go slow!!!
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