Author Topic: Say it isn't so!  (Read 2763 times)

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StephenCB

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on: July 13, 2009, 04:00:56 am
This last week I was on vacation within 35 miles of one of the two RE dealers in Georgia (PowerWorks of Georgia).  I convinced the better half to make a short side trip to visit and actually hands on a RE.

While speaking with the dealer, he made mention of some things that saddened me!  Starting two years ago, RE started making changes in their bikes.  The AVL among other things added electronic ignition, but after this model year (2009) the only Royal Enfield motorcycles imported would be the ones with EFI.

Say it isn't so.  Oops sorry I'm in Georgia...  Say it AIN'T so!

One of the things that initially attracted me to the RE was it was a two wheeled version of my old '69 Nova with a 250 straight 6 and 3 in the tree.  With my tool box and the Chilton bible, I could break that car down to parts and put it back together with a reasonable expectation that it would run.  The RE with that type of ignition, a carburetor, and the rest of "old school" setup is what I was hoping to buy. 

I am at least 12 months away from being able to purchase my ride, and this salesman is telling me that the only bike I will be able to buy new is almost anything but what drew me to the Royal Enfield.


Ice

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Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 04:10:33 am
Not to worry. Some buyers sell for a variety of reasons. Good used Iron barrels are not too hard to find. Nothing wrong with a AVL either.
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northshore_paul

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Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 04:10:43 am
Don't worry Stephen there will be enough old iron barrels around for awhile. They may not be "new" but with a good owner who took care of it and nurtured it...well it will better than new and so will the price. Many current Bullet owners would like to get a new C5 or G5...and will, some will keep their present bikes but others will be forced to choose between the new ride or their old steed. So watch craigslist, ebay and this link that has a lot of good information http://www.royalenfields.com/
The writer for this blog runs a list of Bullets for sale across the country, so you can get an idea of what is out there and for how much. So don't despair and if you need to get that untitled new bike, hurry because there are dealers that have them in stock but as you were told, after this model year that is it!
'01 Kawasaki W650
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'03 Bullet Classic gone to a new home
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Coronach

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Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 04:16:29 am
It's so. However, think about it for a moment...

1. This isn't RE's fault. This is the government's fault. Emissions and fuel economy regulations have killed the iron engine. There's nothing RE can do about it. If they want to sell bikes, they need the EFI engine.

2. RE has done a good job of keeping the spirit of the bike alive, as best can be done with EFI. You can still kick start it. Its styling is straight 1950s. And, with the transmission recall, you can say that it still requires mechanical attention. ;)

3. You can always find barely used iron-barrel enfields on ebay. Lots of people buy these bikes and discover that they're not a Honyamasakizuki, and that you have to get your hands dirty and that you really can't cruise at 75MPH for hours on end. Some of them have problems, some of them don't.

Mike
Columbus, OH
2008 Black Classic ES "Last One"
1050 miles on the clock
OH! ... IO!


ace.cafe

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Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 01:22:21 pm
Yes, it's been so for a while now.

Your best bet is to try to find the latest Iron Barrel Bullet that you can find, which is KICK START ONLY.
There are reasons for this.
The electric starter is a problem that's never going to be solved on the older bikes. Avoid it. The new EFI bikes seem to have done it properly, but they are the different engine.
Most kick start only bikes also are old enough to have the correct engine breather, and not the later bodge that isn't designed properly.
So, by picking a kick start only model prior to 2004, you'll get the better breather and avoid the electric start nightmare.
The only "down side" to this is that it will probably be a 4-speed gearbox. That's not terrible, but the 5-speed box is better.

So, I think the prime choice to look for is a 2000-2003 kick start only Bullet.
You can add a 5-speed gearbox to it later, if you get the right-side-shift conversion package for the 5-speed box. It will bolt right on to the 4-speed engine, once it's been converted to the right-side-shifter which eliminates the cross-shaft that goes thru a tunnel in the 5-speed engine case that's not present in the 4-speed engine cases, so you have to change it over to right-side-shift to use it with a 4-speed engine.

To me, the 2000-2003 Bullet 500KS is the primo Bullet to be had.
However, you can modify later(2004-on) models to KS-only with some work, and the breather can be restored to the older type with some disassembly and drilling. And they have an improved front brake plate and some better fit and finish, as well as having the 5-speed already in them after 2005.

That's the long and short of Iron Barrel Bullet buying.
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Vince

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Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 04:20:01 pm
     I ran into this sentiment when the electric start came out,  when the 5-speed came out,  when the Electra came out, and now with the G5/C5 models. The new units ARE Royal Enfields.  They feel, sound, and ride the same. It is a natural evolution of the old bikes. Once you get on it and ride it all of your trepidations will disappear. Transmission issues not withstanding, RE did a heck of a job in retaining the identity of the brand. These are great bikes. You will love it.


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Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 06:08:57 pm
"I ran into this sentiment when the electric start came out,  when the 5-speed came out,  when the Electra came out, and now with the G5/C5 models. The new units ARE Royal Enfields.  They feel, sound, and ride the same. It is a natural evolution of the old bikes. Once you get on it and ride it all of your trepidations will disappear. Transmission issues not withstanding, RE did a heck of a job in retaining the identity of the brand. These are great bikes. You will love it."  Vince

Amen, Br. Vince!  I would never sell Perla, my 2004 ES Sixty-5.  I would, however, buy a C5 or a G5 in a heartbeat... make that a few heartbeats because I need to secure some discretionary spending funds from my CFO!!!   ;)
Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

Keep the shiny side up, the boots on the pegs and best REgards,

Papa Juan

REA:    Member No. 119
BIKE:   2004 Royal Enfield Sixty-5
NAME: Perla


StephenCB

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Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 06:46:00 pm
Edited quote...

....I need to secure some discretionary spending funds from my CFO!!!   ;)

;D This is the main reason I have not made any purchase plans for the near future!


Cabo Cruz

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Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 07:22:23 pm
I hea ya, Br. CB!!!   :D
Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

Keep the shiny side up, the boots on the pegs and best REgards,

Papa Juan

REA:    Member No. 119
BIKE:   2004 Royal Enfield Sixty-5
NAME: Perla


Coronach

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Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 05:37:30 am
Quote
To me, the 2000-2003 Bullet 500KS is the primo Bullet to be had.
Ace,

I take a slightly different angle, but I don't have your knowledge and experience. IMO, the 5-speed gearbox makes it worthwhile to get the newer bullet. I avoid the KS problem by simply not using it. The breather can also be fixed, per your current post. Are these assumptions incorrect?

Mike
Columbus, OH
2008 Black Classic ES "Last One"
1050 miles on the clock
OH! ... IO!


ace.cafe

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Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 01:46:54 pm
Ace,

I take a slightly different angle, but I don't have your knowledge and experience. IMO, the 5-speed gearbox makes it worthwhile to get the newer bullet. I avoid the KS problem by simply not using it. The breather can also be fixed, per your current post. Are these assumptions incorrect?

Mike

Mike,
The 5-speed gearbox is a worthwhile improvement. It solves several problems which exist with the 4-speed box. I like the 5-speed.
The later model breather can be fixed, as per my other post on the subject.
The Electric Starter issue is still a potential issue, because the sprag can frag even if you don't use the ES. Any kickback, even when using the kickstarter, can demolish the sprag. Even if the bike stalls at idle, and then kicks back a bit when coming to rest, can blow the sprag.
But, that can be removed too, and you can even convert to older style primary case, with the proper parts and some drilling and tapping of the engine case.

So, all the issues can be overcome.with some effort, and you do get the 5-speed box with the later models, along with an improved front brake plate after 2004, and the better finishing quality on the later models.

With the older KS models, there's no real "correcting" to be done, but the gearbox needs to be changed to a right-shift 5-speed to compete in the gearbox department.
And with the right-shift gearbox, the crossover linkage under the engine for the brake pedal is eliminated, which is a nice improvement there. You get more direct action of your rear brake, and you remove that low-hanging brake pedal which is a ground clearance problem.
When changing to the right shift 5-speed from the left shift 4-speed, the crossover linkage for the shifter is also eliminated.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 01:50:22 pm by ace.cafe »
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baird4444

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Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 06:20:56 pm
    ACE, your knowledge of these machines is extraordinary. You have helped many of us by braking down the facts and simplifying them. Please be aware that there is a difference between fact and opinion. When you say something like-
"Your best bet is to try to find the latest Iron Barrel Bullet that you can find, which is KICK START ONLY. There are reasons for this.
The electric starter is a problem that's never going to be solved on the older bikes. Avoid it. The new EFI bikes seem to have done it properly, but they are the different engine. Most kick start only bikes also are old enough to have the correct engine breather, and not the later bodge that isn't designed properly. So, by picking a kick start only model prior to 2004, you'll get the better breather and avoid the electric start nightmare. The only "down side" to this is that it will probably be a 4-speed gearbox. That's not terrible, but the 5-speed box is better."

 -you make it sound like you have to fullfill the quest of finding a kickstart only bike. I'm sure Kevin will back me up on this; the ratio of ks to es in this time period will be very small. The Sprag-frag problem is mostly caused by improper timing and or a weak battery in conjunction with an electronic ignition. It makes sense to me that a properly timed bike and using the kick start on a cold motor is safe. Points? why not? There is far less issue of a weak battery with them. Just use the KS on a properly timed bike and the odds are with you.
   4-Speed gearbox?  Whats wrong with an old machine gearbox that was mated to an engine? It worked for over 50 years! The present 5 speed was only in production for less than 10 years.

   Your facts can be taken as gospel truth but please note an opinion. I'd hate for someone to freakout and spend big bucks converting to a 5 speed (cause ACE said to)  when there is really nothing wrong with the 4-speed. I'd hate for a potential buyer to pass  on a good deal just cause it has a 4-speed or is an es bike. The low cost of buying and maintaining these beauties is one of the key draws. We need to be careful and not scare away any potential new buyers into this small and select group of Enfield ownership.
             "just a thought" - Mike
'My dear you are ugly,
 but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be ugly'
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ace.cafe

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Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 06:56:22 pm
   ACE, your knowledge of these machines is extraordinary. You have helped many of us by braking down the facts and simplifying them. Please be aware that there is a difference between fact and opinion. When you say something like-
"Your best bet is to try to find the latest Iron Barrel Bullet that you can find, which is KICK START ONLY. There are reasons for this.
The electric starter is a problem that's never going to be solved on the older bikes. Avoid it. The new EFI bikes seem to have done it properly, but they are the different engine. Most kick start only bikes also are old enough to have the correct engine breather, and not the later bodge that isn't designed properly. So, by picking a kick start only model prior to 2004, you'll get the better breather and avoid the electric start nightmare. The only "down side" to this is that it will probably be a 4-speed gearbox. That's not terrible, but the 5-speed box is better."

 -you make it sound like you have to fullfill the quest of finding a kickstart only bike. I'm sure Kevin will back me up on this; the ratio of ks to es in this time period will be very small. The Sprag-frag problem is mostly caused by improper timing and or a weak battery in conjunction with an electronic ignition. It makes sense to me that a properly timed bike and using the kick start on a cold motor is safe. Points? why not? There is far less issue of a weak battery with them. Just use the KS on a properly timed bike and the odds are with you.
   4-Speed gearbox?  Whats wrong with an old machine gearbox that was mated to an engine? It worked for over 50 years! The present 5 speed was only in production for less than 10 years.

   Your facts can be taken as gospel truth but please note an opinion. I'd hate for someone to freakout and spend big bucks converting to a 5 speed (cause ACE said to)  when there is really nothing wrong with the 4-speed. I'd hate for a potential buyer to pass  on a good deal just cause it has a 4-speed or is an es bike. The low cost of buying and maintaining these beauties is one of the key draws. We need to be careful and not scare away any potential new buyers into this small and select group of Enfield ownership.
             "just a thought" - Mike

Mike,
Yes, it's an opinion.

I ride a 4-speed Bullet, so I'm not "anti-4-speed".
However, I do think that the benefits of the 5-speed are worth it, even though I'm not riding with one right now. Better shifting, 2-3 more hp transmitted to the rear wheel, and no large ratio gap between 3rd and 4th would be the reasoning behind my opinion on the gearbox issue.
In defense of the 4-speed box, it is the original style box, and does work, and there are kits available if a person wants to improve certain aspects of that gearbox.

My opinions on the ES are pretty well-known here, and perhaps there's not alot of agreement on that. I think there's foundation for my opinion.

I hope I didn't scare anyone away, and that was certainly not my intention.
My recommendations were based on my opinions for best function and least likelihood of failures for reduced maintenance issues.

Please accept my apologies if I stepped out of line, or offended.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 07:18:09 pm by ace.cafe »
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baird4444

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Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 08:20:39 pm
   NO offense taken.  We need  to be aware of how our audience is going to perceive our statements.  Perception is everything.  An uneducated buyer or new owner could easily mistake the meaning of something said completely different than one of us who have been around these things awhile.
               - Mike
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 but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be ugly'
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StephenCB

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Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 09:10:38 pm
Mike,
Yes, it's an opinion.

Please accept my apologies if I stepped out of line, or offended.
Ace,

From my limited time on this forum, I've come to respect your opinions and analysis of the various models.  You did not step out of line and I do not fall into the category of easily offended!

Your response was exactly what I was looking for (and then some!), in that you read what I was looking for and what attracted me to the Royal as my ride and what my realistic options were for me to get that.

It helped me narrow my search and in addition gave me advice on how to convert the 4 speed to the 5 for an improved ride!