Author Topic: PAV - keep it or bin it? (Read 8288 times)

Bulletbaz · **on:** July 08, 2009, 03:48:23 pm

I am the proud new owner of a stock-standard, UK-spec, 2004 Bullet “Sixty-Five”. Whilst I understand the benefits of removing both the PAV system and the restrictive “cat” (hot-tube) from the exhaust pipe (and re-jetting to suit), I find my bike’s performance quite adequate for my purposes as it is. Indeed I am impressed by its crisp response throughout the rev range and low-down punch, such that at present I see no reason to modify it (aside from gaining the use of a toolbox!). On the other hand, I am concerned that retaining this stuff might compromise engine longevity or long-term reliability in some way (possibly by undue heat retention?). All opinions will be gratefully received and carefully considered. Thanks!

1Blackwolf1 · **Reply #1 on:** July 08, 2009, 04:03:42 pm

Don't know about the longevity issue, I did remove mine to clean it up and get the full advantage of ALL the bikes horsepower. I would say if you like it stock, leave it. But thats just my 2 quid on the idea. Will.

UncleErnie · **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2009, 04:09:21 pm

I start to worry when I'm happy, also.
Find something to polish.

ace.cafe · **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2009, 04:11:10 pm

There's no doubt that removing the "hot tube" in the exhaust will help to reduce the retained heat in the engine, and improve performance too.
I'd definitely do that.

As for the PAV, it really does nothing.
You could take it off or leave it on, and there will be no noticeable change.
However, if you do take it off, I'd keep it in the closet, just in case some whacky politicians decide to make a new rule saying you need to have pollution monitoring at yearly vehicle inspections.

So, to keep all bases covered, I think it best to get a whole new performance exhaust system, good air fliter, re-jet the carb, and remove the PAV.
Keep all the original stuff, just in case the emissions-Gestapo start getting happy feet, and want to stick emissions probes up your tailpipe.
The usual method for states that have this, is to run your bike the way you want it, and then put the original stuff back on when you go in for the emissions test, and then put it back the way you want it for the rest of the year.

Jinx · **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2009, 04:53:41 pm

Lookout Ace, you'll upset Al Gore and the tree huggers by melting the ice at the north pole!

Pav is an emissions joke and anything you can do to make a motor more efficient is a good thing.

Vince · **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2009, 05:14:27 pm

   If the performance is good for you, then don't worry about the PAV. It is not worth the hassle of taking it off "just because". The PAV does NOT affect engine running or longevity or heat retention in the engine in any way.
   Here's how it works: There is a vacuum actuated pump that pumps air when there is a pressure pulse during intake cycle. The pump will now pump a shot of air into the exhaust stream AFTER it leaves the combustion chamber. The exhaust stream is only about 60=70% burned because it has used up all the available oxygen. The pulse of air re-ignites the fuel for a more complete burn, This more complete the burn, the less emissions are spewed into the atmosphere.
Kawasaki in particular has used this system on every bike (including the Ninja) since 1976. Most car engines have it. This is an easy way to reduce emissions. It actually aids performance due the the fact that the manufacturer can jet the carb for proper running. The alternative is to lean out the mixture so much that performance suffers, and the engine runs hotter due to the overly lean mixture.
   Some of the extra plumbing in the exhaust pipe will add some restriction. This does limit horsepower to some extent, but we are talking Enfield here. Removing it might net an extra .2 horsepower. You'll never be able to tell. Going to a different pipe and carb will net you 4 or 5 more horsepower.You will get a little better acceleration from this, but as you indicated, this is not important to you.
   So don't worry. Maintain the bike properly and go for a ride.

Bulletbaz · **Reply #6 on:** July 09, 2009, 01:54:42 pm

Thanks for all the replies and I shall heed the advice.
Great forum by the way! (Any other Wales, UK folk on here?).

Barry.

rideOn · **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2009, 04:48:37 pm

These bikes have 'pick and choose your battle' projects. My battle with the bike now is tidying the wire orgy going on under the seat. I may declare war on the PAV one day, but it would probably be more for the reason of 'less is more' to keep it as clean as possible.

clamp · **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2009, 02:41:32 am

Quote from: Bulletbaz on July 09, 2009, 01:54:42 pm

Thanks for all the replies and I shall heed the advice.
Great forum by the way! (Any other Wales, UK folk on here?).

Barry.

YES me! But Im not Welsh boyo. Yorkshire in Malaysia.

Errr,---about you question, I binned my valve and catalytic and de boweled the exhaust silencer and replaced the innards with a perforated st steel pipe, Not noisy at all.

I had to move the needle to the top and it runs bloody great. It starts in a nano second and will drive away a minute later.

I had it a week before I binned the valve N stuff so I got used to its performance up familiar hills. I can tell you that removal of ALL the stuff did improve the torque in so much as hills I had to change down on before was now no longer necessary.

India believe it or not has emission standards.

rideOn · **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:14:28 pm

Ok it didn't take much cyphering to decide to remove the valve for the sake of less is more. Any tips on how to plug the flange on the carb? I assume the metal tube would come out.

mbevo1 · **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:22:49 pm

The metal tube pulls out easily. I put a dab of JB weld on the hole... others have used loctite on a small screw in case they wanted to undo it. Just need to ensure it doesn't leak.

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan

soulforge · **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:45:32 pm

Sorry for the interuption but what is a PAV? The only PAV, I know is the name of a motorcycle trailer...Mayhap it is called by another name in my country....sobs.... Please enlighten me.

rideOn · **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:51:13 pm

Quote from: soulforge on July 20, 2009, 03:45:32 pm

Sorry for the interuption but what is a PAV? The only PAV, I know is the name of a motorcycle trailer...

The valve that is in your left toolbox, toward the front of the bike, above the rear brake switch. Remove it and the associated hoses can be removed by plugging the exhaust pipe and carb. For me, it's just to clean up the wire/hose orgy under the seat.

How did you get a '69 chief?

PhilJ · **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:45:55 pm

Soulforge,

On the 2008 AVL the PAV (pulse air valve) is located (on American models) at the left front under the fuel tank. It is connected to the head. There is an air hose going to the air box for it's fresh air that pulses into the exhaust valve for burning hydrocarbons. On the carb manifold is a small hose the goes to the PAV which activates the valve with putting the fresh air into the head.

It can be remove if you like, hole must be plugged.

icarus · **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:58:01 am

Quote from: PhilJ on July 20, 2009, 06:45:55 pm

On the 2008 AVL the PAV (pulse air valve) is located (on American models) at the left front under the fuel tank. It is connected to the head. There is an air hose going to the air box for it's fresh air that pulses into the exhaust valve for burning hydrocarbons. On the carb manifold is a small hose the goes to the PAV which activates the valve with putting the fresh air into the head.

This is the same as with my Indian Electra 5S (model 2007).
Please note mine isn't an AVL!

soulforge · **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:14:53 am

Pulse Air Valve!... so that's the meaning of PAV!..

Thanks PhilJ, I'm still having many problems undestanding the terms in this Forum. Everybody is using shortened words and I'm learning a lot from them. I still got some words that I can guess but am not 100% sure of its term. Guess, I'll have to play dumb and ask around whenever I see one. And yes, you are correct for AVL, the PAV is located at the front under the fuel tank.

soulforge · **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:50:36 am

Quote from: rideOn on July 20, 2009, 03:51:13 pm

The valve that is in your left toolbox, toward the front of the bike, above the rear brake switch. Remove it and the associated hoses can be removed by plugging the exhaust pipe and carb. For me, it's just to clean up the wire/hose orgy under the seat.

How did you get a '69 chief?

Thanks rideon! Your advice regretfully does not match my 2008 AVL but it still will be valuable information for others here in my country. As for the Chief, I bought it second hand when I visited the States. I had my friends search the web and many motorcycle shops and clubs to come up with a decent Indian. Problem is that it is still in the States...sobs.. After Euro3 regulation's appliance, I cannot ship it to my country for registration. I am planning to at least bring it here as a display item and then ponder on how I can get it registered. Currently, Carb motorcycles can no longer be registered in my country....bad news for all Classic lovers.. Ohh...I heard that Indian has now been restored and new models can be purchased at 'www.indianmotorcycle.com' or at 'www.kiwiindian.com', can you confirm this information? I was wondering if there were authentic or just people claiming.

plane95302 · **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:43:57 pm

This is the 2nd, 3rd,or 4th reincarnation of the Indian brand. Damned expensive & don't know if they will last but wish them luck.

rideOn · **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2009, 08:19:50 pm

Quote from: soulforge on July 21, 2009, 01:50:36 am

As for the Chief, I bought it second hand when I visited the States. I had my friends search the web and many motorcycle shops and clubs to come up with a decent Indian. Problem is that it is still in the States...sobs..

Do you know anyone that you can trust in transportation, on land or sea, that can move it for you. I worked with a retired ship captain in the north who got a few bikes into the states.

soulforge · **Reply #19 on:** July 23, 2009, 02:11:40 am

Quote from: rideOn on July 22, 2009, 08:19:50 pm

Do you know anyone that you can trust in transportation, on land or sea, that can move it for you. I worked with a retired ship captain in the north who got a few bikes into the states.

My cousin lives in NY and is a US citizen. He will be taking the necessary steps. Thank you for your concern! I really appreciate it.