[northshore_paul]

I want to clean up the routing of duckbill, the prior owner has about 3 1/2 feet of tubing that he ran around, up, down and sideways ending up past the seat brackets on the rear fender braces. That was ok when I had the black rear fender but I recently changed to the chrome 350 fender and that back hose sure stands out against the chrome background. Any suggestions for a short routing

[ace.cafe]

You can route it anywhere you want, as long as it goes up high first, around the level of the seat.
After it is brought up  high, you can take it anywhere you want to go with it, and put the duckbill on the end.
I have the chrome fender, and I use a clear vinyl tube(3/8" I.D.) from Lowe's Hardware. After a while it yellows a bit.

Some people aim the duckbill at the chain, but I think that makes a mess.
I haven't found anywhere that I prefer better than going to the back end of the bike with it.

[northshore_paul]

Going high first makes it work as an inverted "P" trap trapping the oil at the bottom and preventing it being vented? I imagine all you really want to vent are the crankcase gases and any oil that blows by. Do I have its function correct?

[ace.cafe]

Going high first makes it work as an inverted "P" trap trapping the oil at the bottom and preventing it being vented? I imagine all you really want to vent are the crankcase gases and any oil that blows by. Do I have its function correct?

Yes, it's a "stand pipe"  or "inverted P trap" that lets the fumes go out, and keeps most of the oil from burping out the end.  There will still be some fine oil  mist that comes out the end of the duckbill, and it will get blown around onto the bike in spots by the wind turbulence while you ride. But, it's not alot, and it wipes off easy.

[northshore_paul]

Thanks for the info. 

[jest2dogs]

I blocked off the forward drain port from the timing cover with a short piece of hose and a bolt hoseclamped in to make a stopper. The crankcase breather from the top of the oil tank, as ACE has pointed out, is an unsatisfactory arrangement, as it doesn't vent well enough as did the now defunct casting at the left side of the cylinder base.

Since this new breather location is poor at best I, at first, deleted the original hose and can system and ran a piece of rubber hose up and over the head steady and down onto the chain where I ended it in a duckbill.

What I got was a lot of the mayonnaise junk building up in there. I frequently had to disconnect it all and squeeze all that crap out of there. I think that with a long route of tubing the oil/water vapor has too far to go, cools and condenses quickly, making the goop.

Vince enlightened me as to the easy cure. Short and  sweet, yes, a bit messy if your engine blows oil at high speed as mine does, but that's what Sunday bike cleaning days are for  .

Three pics follow. The first is the blocked off timing cover return. The second is the short breather from the oil tank side and the last picture is the duckbill from the primary side. To clean it out is simple, pop the tube off the oil tank, slipe the duckbill end out from under the nylon tiewrap and it's off for cleaning. (BTW, I used the original tubing for the piece shown as it was prebent without kinks!)

[deejay]

I've got a chrome fender as well. Like Ace, I routed mine under the back fender and attached the duckbill to the end, can't see it at all.

[Rick Sperko]

I run mine to the chain. One person had what I thought was a good idea: running it through the fender support. Then it would be completely hidden. But I have not tried it.

-Rick

[rideOn]

I've been cyphering on this same project while doing a little experiment. I set up hoses from both sources: the timing case and the top of ther oil tank with a catch on each hose. There is a significant amount of oil escaping from the timing case into the catch and none from the top of the oil case. I'm thinking that there is a fair amount of pressure in the timing case and plugging this location may cause problems due to the lack of escape and therefore buildup of oil in the top of the timing case. So, I want to experiment with a 'y' ot 't' connector between the timing housing and the top of the oil tank so that the oil flowing from the timing can drain back into the tank. Adding the 'up' routing of the hose from there will theoretically allow the escape of gas. It's not a complicated project, just a few extra inces of hose and whichever fitting I choose.  I could try both and look for the least amount of residue at the duckbill. It seems to be a simple method: the weight of the oil should force overflow directly into the oil tank while the gas rises through the 'stack'.

[Blltrdr]

I've been cyphering on this same project while doing a little experiment. I set up hoses from both sources: the timing case and the top of ther oil tank with a catch on each hose. There is a significant amount of oil escaping from the timing case into the catch and none from the top of the oil case. I'm thinking that there is a fair amount of pressure in the timing case and plugging this location may cause problems due to the lack of escape and therefore buildup of oil in the top of the timing case. So, I want to experiment with a 'y' ot 't' connector between the timing housing and the top of the oil tank so that the oil flowing from the timing can drain back into the tank. Adding the 'up' routing of the hose from there will theoretically allow the escape of gas. It's not a complicated project, just a few extra inches of hose and whichever fitting I choose.  I could try both and look for the least amount of residue at the duckbill. It seems to be a simple method: the weight of the oil should force overflow directly into the oil tank while the gas rises through the 'stack'.

The older motor never had a vent/drain in the backside of the timing case. The engineers in there infinite wisdom redeveloped a simple system into this mess we have now with the breather coming out of the top of the oil reservoir. Probably all do to emission regulations. I don't really understand your theory but am willing to hear you out after you have run your tests and collected your data.

I would think a simple pressure test could be performed with a balloon, giving you an instant and very visual result as far as pressures that occur from the breather versus the timing chest. I placed a rubber vacuum cap over the inlet stub on the back of my timing chest. I didn't use a clamp and have seen no signs of pressure forcing any oil from around this cap. So it seems strange that you are seeing so much oil forced from there.

It will be interesting to see what your results will be. I have routed my breather per Aces instructions and it has performed flawlessly since.

rideOn give us an update soon.

Blltrdr

[rideOn]

Not sure how involved I'll get. Just reporting observations. My OEM oil can is gone now, but having looked in it twice in 1000 miles, it looks like oil moved through it regularly. After putting collectors on the two hoses, I could drive about 8-10 miles and collect about a cup of oil from the timing chest. I'm thinking more about keeping the oil moving and possibly getting out of the engine, keeping it cooler. The 't' between the two ports may be positive in providing such a function. Thinking about it now, the oil can is not a bad idea to begin with. It provides the engine oil a location out of the engine to cool, much like oil coolers for performance engines.

[ace.cafe]

RideOn,
You might be interested to know that there is already a breathing connection inside the engine, between the timing case and the oil tank.
They are joined together about an inch or so under your "timing case stub"
Joining them again externally with a "tee" is simply redundant.

I'm not going to go into it again here, but my assessment of the newer model Iron Barrel breathing circuit(oil tank breather models) is pretty well-known on this board.

[petefletcher]

Have a look at my thoughts on the subject here
http://www.whfolk.co.uk/REOCHUMBER/breather.htm

[Geirskogul]

So...remove all hoses and plug 'em?

[petefletcher]

Geirskogul,
No, not all of them, the engine still needs to breathe.
You need a duckbill NRV routed to the rear of the bike somewhere.

[ace.cafe]

So...remove all hoses and plug 'em?

One hose off the main breather outlet is all that's necessary.
Depending on the year of the bike, that outlet will be either an elbow on the crankcase casting under the left cylinder fins, or it will be on the oil tank. Route it high, and put a duckbill on the end. Where you want to route the exit is up to you.
The rest of them can be plugged.

[meilaushi]

Love your saying, Rideon!  I wave to Harleys but they often don't wave back... They must be ashamed seeing such a nice bike as a Royal Enfield!  Ha! 

I've got a question though... My '08 Classic seems to use what I think is a fair amount of oil (it has the OEM breather setup), and the center stand appears to have oil running down it somehow as the rug on which the bike sits in the garage (they formerly used the garage as a place for their pool table and had a rug installed on the floor--so I left it there--too much bother to try to rip out--besides, an RE deserves a fine place to sit!  ). After reading everyone's entries, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm losing oil out the breather.  Could that be possible?  Seems so from what everyone is saying.

Thanks guys for any wisdom you may have on the subject. 

P.S.  Ace.cafe -- love your informative entries and responses!  And I suspect you gotta be a 'colonial' as I noticed you got your tubing from Lowe's -- I don't think they're in Britain, are they?

[ace.cafe]

Love your saying, Rideon!  I wave to Harleys but they often don't wave back... They must be ashamed seeing such a nice bike as a Royal Enfield!  Ha! 

I've got a question though... My '08 Classic seems to use what I think is a fair amount of oil (it has the OEM breather setup), and the center stand appears to have oil running down it somehow as the rug on which the bike sits in the garage (they formerly used the garage as a place for their pool table and had a rug installed on the floor--so I left it there--too much bother to try to rip out--besides, an RE deserves a fine place to sit!  ). After reading everyone's entries, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm losing oil out the breather.  Could that be possible?  Seems so from what everyone is saying.

Thanks guys for any wisdom you may have on the subject. 

P.S.  Ace.cafe -- love your informative entries and responses!  And I suspect you gotta be a 'colonial' as I noticed you got your tubing from Lowe's -- I don't think they're in Britain, are they?

Yes, I'm a "colonial"!

You could be leaking oil from a full catch can, which would indicate oil losses out the breather into the catch tank. But that's just a guess.

If you haven't re-routed your breather, it's time to do it.
If you want to retain the catch can system, you can simply take off the main breahter hose that goes from the oil tank to the catch can.
Then put it back on with the ends swapped, so that the molded bend in the hose is up at the catch tank, instead of on the oil tank end.
Route this hose over the frame member, instead of under the frame member. The stock routing of the hose under the frame member is not good.
This way, the sharp bend is removed from the area over the oil tank, and provides a certain amount of free-er breathing flow that way, so it is less likely to get clogged with "mayonnaise". And routing it over the frame member gives it a modicum of high-routing, so that the "standpipe" function is at least partially achieved.
That generally helps. And it doesn't cost a dime to do.

If you want to delete the catch can system, then run a 3/8" I.D. hose from the breather outlet on the oil tank, up high near the seat(as directly vertical as is feasible) and then route the hose to your preferred exit location, and put a duckbill on the end.
I like to run it to the rear of the bike, and exit it with a duckbill near the license plate.
Cap all the other hose barbs off.
Done.

[rideOn]

my findings are that oil escapes from the timing chest. first, if oil travels so easily up the chest and out the tube, how does oil find it's way back down the chest if the hole is plugged. is it more important to keep the oil in the timing chest, which is extremely easy to service or move the oil toward the crank, which is not so easy to service? second, there would definitely be an advantage to allow the oil to escape the timing chest, circulate external to the engine and return at the top of the oil tank. my guess is that external temperature is cooer than internal. less heat, more better. sorry guys, my education and training forces me to think in terms of small details. all the small adds up to big.

Love your saying, Rideon!  I wave to Harleys but they often don't wave back... They must be ashamed seeing such a nice bike as a Royal Enfield!  Ha! 

I've got a question though... My '08 Classic seems to use what I think is a fair amount of oil (it has the OEM breather setup), and the center stand appears to have oil running down it somehow as the rug on which the bike sits in the garage (they formerly used the garage as a place for their pool table and had a rug installed on the floor--so I left it there--too much bother to try to rip out--besides, an RE deserves a fine place to sit!  ). After reading everyone's entries, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm losing oil out the breather.  Could that be possible?  Seems so from what everyone is saying.

Thanks guys for any wisdom you may have on the subject. 

P.S.  Ace.cafe -- love your informative entries and responses!  And I suspect you gotta be a 'colonial' as I noticed you got your tubing from Lowe's -- I don't think they're in Britain, are they?

[rideOn]

meilaushi:
the cmw store describes the breather mod kit #Z90030 as finely engineered and returns escaping oil throught the oil fill. the kit confirms that oil will escape and is normal. other than trying to streamline appearance, the oem oil can works fine. remember the external add-ons on performance cars. the idea was to cool oil outside the engine and return it. not a bad idea. by the way, i get most 'double-takes' from harley riders, but like you no waves. that's ok, on my way to my business degrees, i studied the hd business model a time or two. they market for some kind of exclusiveness in that if you don't have a harley, you're nobody. they're the ones getting played by fuzz-head marketers!

[petefletcher]

my findings are that oil escapes from the timing chest. first, if oil travels so easily up the chest and out the tube, how does oil find it's way back down the chest if the hole is plugged.

I think you might me missing something here.
In the Bullet engine oil is pumped from the tank to the big end and then splash lubricates the cylinder etc before falling into the crankcase.
A second pump scavages the oil from the crankcase "sump" and feeds it to the rockers.
It then dribbles down the pushrod tube into the timing chest and through an internal hole near the top of the chest back to the tank. All the circulating oil ends up back in the timing chest during normal running.
The tube at the back of the top of the timing chest is just to provide a drain for the catch can. There is a NRV in the pipe up to the catch can so that oil cannot blow up and fill the can. I suspect oil can only drain from the can when the engine is stopped as there is a bit of pressure in the timing chest when the engine is running which will keep that NRV closed.  The tube must be plugged if you dispense with the catch can.

[meilaushi]

Thanks, fellows for the thorough answers!  (as always!)   They help a lot.  Looks like CMW gets another order!

[REpozer]

[quote author=rideOn link=topic=4449.msg50413#msg50413 date=124438679
i studied the hd business model a time or two. they market for some kind of exclusiveness in that if you don't have a harley, you're nobody. they're the ones getting played by fuzz-head marketers!
[/quote]I don't remember H-D riders acting like that in the early 80's.

[rideOn]

was that the days of (or tail end of) amf and the company on the brink? I don't recall those being the days of hd boots, hd shirts, hd underwear, hd dog chew toys, etc. different model now appealing to the 'branded'.

[quote author=rideOn link=topic=4449.msg50413#msg50413 date=124438679
i studied the hd business model a time or two. they market for some kind of exclusiveness in that if you don't have a harley, you're nobody. they're the ones getting played by fuzz-head marketers!
I don't remember H-D riders acting like that in the early 80's.

[rideOn]

it's very unnecessary to keep so much oil in the timing chest. i rotated the distributor gearing easily with fingertips with the cover off. the upward movement of the oil through the timing chest should suffice. i would prefer to move it out of the chest, in the manner that it now exits, and toward the return on top of the oild tank. my old oil can returned it efficiently and there was never more than a film with a little foam in the can. i just don't like the oil can where it is because it junks up the seat area. the kit from RE or a similar oil return setup would be my choice over simply plugging the hole at the timing chest.

I think you might me missing something here.
In the Bullet engine oil is pumped from the tank to the big end and then splash lubricates the cylinder etc before falling into the crankcase.
A second pump scavages the oil from the crankcase "sump" and feeds it to the rockers.
It then dribbles down the pushrod tube into the timing chest and through an internal hole near the top of the chest back to the tank. All the circulating oil ends up back in the timing chest during normal running.
The tube at the back of the top of the timing chest is just to provide a drain for the catch can. There is a NRV in the pipe up to the catch can so that oil cannot blow up and fill the can. I suspect oil can only drain from the can when the engine is stopped as there is a bit of pressure in the timing chest when the engine is running which will keep that NRV closed.  The tube must be plugged if you dispense with the catch can.

[ace.cafe]

thanks for the tip! The last sentence of the first paragraph confirms what i've been saying. the oil overflows from the timing chest into the oil tank. is it a design or is it just what happens? who cares! it happens. the second diagram also shows the oil returning to the oil tank (dotted line). i still ask (this is my point): why plug the hole in the timing chest when that technique will disrupt what the engine does by accident or design. the breather mod kit accomodates the overflow by feeding the oil back to the tank.

Okay, I'm gonna try to help you with this.

The only reason that oil comes out of that nipple on the timing case is because the nipple and hose is there. If the nipple and hose wasn't there, none would come out.

Bullets have been running for 60 years without that nipple or hose. There is already a return hole in the crankcase between the oil tank and timing chest, so that's that.
You don't need 2.
You can plug the nipple and eliminate the hose, and that's that.
Very simple.

No re-inventing the wheel required.

[rideOn]

then why does the company offer a ket to accomodate the overflow. remember we're working on bikes from a vendor to Indian who blames some failure on a lot of problems in the 50's. Maybe these new mods are finally dealing with 60 year old problems.

Okay, I'm gonna try to help you with this.

The only reason that oil comes out of that nipple on the timing case is because the nipple and hose is there. If the nipple and hose wasn't there, none would come out.

Bullets have been running for 60 years without that nipple or hose. There is already a return hole in the crankcase between the oil tank and timing chest, so that's that.
You don't need 2.
You can plug the nipple and eliminate the hose, and that's that.
Very simple.

No re-inventing the wheel required.

[rideOn]

by the way RE re-invented the wheel with g5's and c5's.

[ace.cafe]

then why does the company offer a ket to accomodate the overflow. remember we're working on bikes from a vendor to Indian who blames some failure on a lot of problems in the 50's. Maybe these new mods are finally dealing with 60 year old problems.

A thousand apologies, sir.
I shall not presume to be able to answer your questions in the future.

[rideOn]

sorry man. i come across as a dick sometimes. i once worked for a retired nasa engineer who taught me to question everything. i just never came down off that.

A thousand apologies, sir.
I shall not presume to be able to answer your questions in the future.

[mbevo1]

rideOn -

I suspect the answer comes with increased scrutiny and regulation on those nasty drips that any vent pipe will eventually drop on the planet.  

Seems that all of the current breather systems are designed to make sure we keep our surroundings as spot-free as possible... all closed-loop.

BTW, I'm using a power brake boost valve (instead of the duckbill) and hose to the chain for my breather system.  Hasn't plugged, and almost nothing comes out of the end of the tube, either.  

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan

[Blltrdr]

This should not be a complicated subject, either leave the stock catch can and assorted hoses with all the gunk and goo or run some hose ( Home Depot, Lowes has miles of it)from breather up to top of frame and back to rear of bike, down to chain or any other place that sounds or looks good. Either place a power brake booster inline like mbevo1 did (make sure it's the right type) or reuse the duckbill from your catch can on the end your hose. It's quite simple and works perfect. For all others intent on reinventing the wheel, more power to ya. Experimentation is the way some/most of us connect with things. I will admit, my breather system is somewhat simplistic and a tad boring but my front brake is not (drilled it).

Thanks again to Ace for his simple/boring mod.

Blltrdr

[mbevo1]

I used the power brake valve based on the recommendation of one of the yahoo group guys... it's a BMW part, ordered online. 

Has worked well for me.  I'll dig up the part number if anyone is interested.

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan

[rideOn]

 i have found 0 oil coming from the top of the oil tank and will run the duckbill to the chain similarly as you have. don't want to ugly up the rear frame with cheap hose. doubt i'll go brake boost. thanks

rideOn -

I suspect the answer comes with increased scrutiny and regulation on those nasty drips that any vent pipe will eventually drop on the planet.  

Seems that all of the current breather systems are designed to make sure we keep our surroundings as spot-free as possible... all closed-loop.

BTW, I'm using a power brake boost valve (instead of the duckbill) and hose to the chain for my breather system.  Hasn't plugged, and almost nothing comes out of the end of the tube, either.  

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan