Author Topic: "Back in the day, we used to..."  (Read 4823 times)

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Rick Sperko

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on: February 16, 2009, 06:52:05 pm
I was born in 1970, my Bullet is my first bike. I have nothing to compare it to.

Every time I talk to a old-timer and tell them my bike tops out at 70mph and I should keep it around 50mph, they ask me what I screwed up on it. Then they proceed to tell me how they used to race Triumphs, BSAs, and Enfield "back in the day" and my bike should easily be able to do 120mph. Then they get starry eyed and recount all the Bullets they have seen do 120 and if my 500cc cannot, I must have broken it and if they had my bike they could get it up to 150 likity-split! Daggg-nnabbittt!

So, why do all of these guys think these bikes are capable of so much more than they seem able to do? Could a Bullet made in 1955 do more than our modern Bullets?

Thanks,
-Rick
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ace.cafe

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Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 07:23:53 pm
I was born in 1970, my Bullet is my first bike. I have nothing to compare it to.

Every time I talk to a old-timer and tell them my bike tops out at 70mph and I should keep it around 50mph, they ask me what I screwed up on it. Then they proceed to tell me how they used to race Triumphs, BSAs, and Enfield "back in the day" and my bike should easily be able to do 120mph. Then they get starry eyed and recount all the Bullets they have seen do 120 and if my 500cc cannot, I must have broken it and if they had my bike they could get it up to 150 likity-split! Daggg-nnabbittt!

So, why do all of these guys think these bikes are capable of so much more than they seem able to do? Could a Bullet made in 1955 do more than our modern Bullets?

Thanks,
-Rick

I think it's a bit of faded memory that seems nice to embellish for "old times sake".

There is some truth to some of it.
The old Bonneville got its name from doing 120mph at Bonneville in the 1960s. So, there were some bikes that could do 120mph, but not a whole lot of them, and very very few of them were 500 singles. Maybe a Norton Manx, or perhaps a Matchless G50, and maybe even a good Gold Star.
And it was a big deal to be able to "crack the ton"(100mph) back then. So, there's alot of hyperbole. Maybe the speedometers were all wacky.

However, the old Redditch Bullet was capable of doing a little bit more than the present-day India-made Bullets. The engines had different ports, were cammed differently, didn't have to meet emission-control regs, and had free-flowing exhaust systems. They had 25hp in stock form. And no, they weren't doing 120. Perhaps the Fury, or some racing Bullets could "crack the ton", but not by alot. Bullets could do about 80-85mph max maybe, as a general rule.
Heck, even the vaunted 750 Interceptor, which was one of the most powerful British Twins, could only manage about 106mph in actual testing, although they claimed 117mph top end.
Even the Triumph Bonnie didn't really do 120mph in street trim. Typically the 650s and 750s were good for about 105-110mph in those days. Yes, you could hop them up, and they'd do a bit more.

The Manx, G50, and Gold Star were racing singles, and they could do it, but they were geared for it, and had higher redlines than most stock bikes. And they were pigs on the road and around town, because they were only good at high rpms.

Any bike back then that could actually do 120mph for real, was a very fast bike. And not many actually did it, but there were a lot of "fish stories".

Even to this very day, the fastest Bullet that's ever been actually timed has done 119.6 mph. And that was a 612 in full-race trim, with high compression, and running on alcohol, and behind a full racing fairing.

But, in the 1970s, things began to change.
The introduction of the Honda 750 4-cylinder was the beginning of the end for the British bikes, and they had no problem doing 120 mph.
The Ducati and MV 750 bikes could do 120mph, and more.
The Triumph Trident, and later Bonnevilles could do it too.
But the Japanese were really just only getting started then, and soon the Japanese bikes were all just running away from the Brits and the Italians.

As I look back, I'd say that the turning point was the introduction of the Honda 750-4. That spelled the end for the Brits and Italians, but the Italians were able to still stay in the hunt at the races until about 1973, and then it was all Japanese after that, until the resurgence of Ducati in the 1990s.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 07:49:21 pm by ace.cafe »
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PhilJ

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Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 07:35:32 pm
Back then most all bike speedos were optimistic and go more so the closer the got to top end.

The Japanese bikes were really bad about it. But Ace is right not many would even break the ton.


ScooterBob

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Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 07:48:19 pm
A-a-a-a-ah, Bench Racing .... The bikes get faster adn we old duffers get braver the older we get .... Heeheehee!! I'm actually HAPPY to putt-putt along at the break-neck, death-defying speeds of 50-60 mph on the old Iron Bullet ..... It's SO much easier on me these days ....  ::)

I had one BSA Lightning that WOULD go about 110mph (according to the local cop who busted my assets on it ....) and it took several weeks of paychecks and LOT of "sacrifice parts" to get it there. The "ton" was something to aspire to if you had a Brit bike. Now, my silly Doo-Katty will do that in like, third gear .... ! Where's the fun in THAT??
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clamp

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Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 01:28:51 am
There could well be something in this when  Triumph Bonnevile reached 200+ MPH on Bonnevile flats years ago,--hence the name.

       
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Cabo Cruz

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Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 02:17:58 am
You're correct, Clamp; and, to be exact, the two Triumph 649 cc records at Bonneville were:

1. In 1956 by Johnny Allen at 214.5 MPH (unratified by FIM)
2. In 1962 by Bill Johnson at 224.57 MPH
Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

Keep the shiny side up, the boots on the pegs and best REgards,

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deejay

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Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 11:42:53 am
I was born in 1970, my Bullet is my first bike. I have nothing to compare it to.

Every time I talk to a old-timer and tell them my bike tops out at 70mph and I should keep it around 50mph, they ask me what I screwed up on it. Then they proceed to tell me how they used to race Triumphs, BSAs, and Enfield "back in the day" and my bike should easily be able to do 120mph. Then they get starry eyed and recount all the Bullets they have seen do 120 and if my 500cc cannot, I must have broken it and if they had my bike they could get it up to 150 likity-split! Daggg-nnabbittt!

So, why do all of these guys think these bikes are capable of so much more than they seem able to do? Could a Bullet made in 1955 do more than our modern Bullets?

Thanks,
-Rick

Really? I was born in 1977 and I seem to get different responses  from older guys. When tell them I don't take my bike on highways and rarely see 60mph the usual response is, "you don''t need to go any faster than that" and "who cares? I hate the highways". Almost like they miss the days of smaller, simple motorcycles.


Spitting Bull

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Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 11:45:55 am
Yep - for the average young UK rider, 100 mph was the magic figure to aim for.  There was much kudos if your bike could do this.  there was the opportunity to do it, too, because in those days, when you saw that sign which means, "end of speed limit" there really was no maximum speed limit for that section of road. (Though of course, you could still be "done" for dangerous driving if you were going too fast for traffic or weather conditions.  But a long, straight Roman trunk road on a dry night was usually OK.  So were the motorways when they first opened - no speed limit).

Reliability, not speed, was important for some owners, of course.  

Veloce, who made Velocette motorcycles, decided to prove that their bikes had speed and reliability. Veloce was a small company, but many of its patents are still vital parts of our bikes today,  including the positive-stop foot change system and rear swinging-arm with hydraulic dampers.

In 1961 the factory took a standard Venom - their 500 cc single, to the Montlhery ciruit in France, which has a banked track.  They stripped the bike of its lights and mudguards and fitted a megaphone exhaust.  They then proceeded to ride the bike round the circuit at over 100 mph, stopping to refuel and change riders, for a full 24 hours.  Even with these stops, they achieved an average speed of just over 100 mph for the 24 hours.  No-one else has ever tried this with a 500 single.

Tom
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ace.cafe

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Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 01:48:33 pm
You're correct, Clamp; and, to be exact, the two Triumph 649 cc records at Bonneville were:

1. In 1956 by Johnny Allen at 214.5 MPH (unratified by FIM)
2. In 1962 by Bill Johnson at 224.57 MPH

These were not "motorcycles" as we normally know them.
These were "streamliners", with supercharged alcohol-burning engines, and in a totally different chassis, with cigar-shaped streamliner bodies.
Here's a pic of that LSR-winning Triumph
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 01:56:40 pm by ace.cafe »
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Rick Sperko

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Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 01:54:31 pm
Really? I was born in 1977

Thanks deejay, now I am old guy. Back in the day we used to play pong, none of this Nintendo fancy stuff. Now where did I put my teeth? ;)
Rick in Milwaukee, WI

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bob bezin

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Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 02:00:21 pm
ace in the 70's ? i had my 1963 bsa super rocket  up to 114 mph but the road was so rough i started to slow down before it had reached top speed , of course  i weighed  less than 100 lbs then. i don't know the wind direction and speedo accuracy.
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Cabo Cruz

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Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 03:17:34 pm
Good lick, Ace!
Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

Keep the shiny side up, the boots on the pegs and best REgards,

Papa Juan

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Leonard

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Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 03:20:13 pm
, of course  i weighed  less than 100 lbs then.

Dang, that was a long time ago.  ;)
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ace.cafe

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Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 05:17:23 pm
ace in the 70's ? i had my 1963 bsa super rocket  up to 114 mph but the road was so rough i started to slow down before it had reached top speed , of course  i weighed  less than 100 lbs then. i don't know the wind direction and speedo accuracy.

Well Bob, maybe you had a real good one.

However, the normal top speed for that type of bike was between 105-110 mph with perfect top end jetting and tuning.
I suppose a real good one might have been able to get to 114 mph.

But, I suspect that there was some speedo error involved.

Note, that I'm not claiming it's "impossible" to get these 650 and 750 twins up to 120 mph. I'm only saying that normally they didn't get there in stock trim and the normal state of road tune of the average bike. Relating to the plethora of "stories" mentioned on this thread at the beginning.
I'm sure there were 120mph twins running around with Dunstall kits and such on them. Modified engines and racing bikes were a different matter than the usual stock bike with a set of mufflers and the average bloke tuning the engine for road use.
Just the inability of most riders to tune the carbs to get max potential would eliminate about 90% of these bikes from reaching their true maximum speeds, in the real world.
You'll notice that in most road test articles of the time period, that the "tested" speeds reached were rarely reaching what was claimed in the spec sheets.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 05:26:33 pm by ace.cafe »
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clamp

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Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 01:09:05 am
Ah now I remember when I said it, yes

          I used to say I would never ever do 100MPH on a motorcyle.

     At 100MPH on something like a triumph a chain failure wheel spokes clutch piston niped you will be sliding down the road and have all the time in the world to think about why did i do that as skin is peeled from you chin bone and thigh.  Your mother will be opening your tamoto sauce for you for the rest of your life.

      Yup no 100MPH for me.

    Untill I rented a Gold wing in Thailand 35 years ago. Bird on the back ,--T shirt, shades, Idont know what happened --I looked at the clock and it said 160KPH. 
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deejay

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Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 01:39:11 am
Really? I was born in 1977

Thanks deejay, now I am old guy. Back in the day we used to play pong, none of this Nintendo fancy stuff. Now where did I put my teeth? ;)

I take any chance I get to make myself feel like the young guy. Nintendo was my thing back in the day. Post some pics of that VW ragtop!


single

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Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 06:17:39 am
I was thrown from a 750 BMW,a new 1971,at 103 mph when it went into a violent tank slapper.Dislocated wrist,forgot to let go,Straight,smooth road.Had a 441 BSA would do 100.Speedos were not as optimistic as R.E.,but,yeah.Cars were same way.Got worse the faster you went,sometimes.It isn't worth it.One of the lessons I have learned in 63 yrs.Stayed into a 150 Dream till it hit 85.It thought,anyway.


PhilJ

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Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 12:41:05 pm
I was thrown from a 750 BMW,a new 1971,at 103 mph .......

The next year, 1972, the swing arm was extended and I never had a wobble of any sort. The 840 bore job and finessed tuning got her to 130 mph. Much younger then, really like the speeds of my RE .


La Poderosa

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Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 11:14:16 pm
You know how to fix "Boxer Wobble" dontcha?


Switch to briefs. :D


PhilJ

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Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 11:23:45 pm
You know how to fix "Boxer Wobble" dontcha?


Switch to briefs. :D

What? And choke the mule?


bob bezin

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Reply #20 on: February 19, 2009, 09:43:41 pm
philj that was a bmw speedometer.  back in the day .. i was riding along with a r600 and two harleys. the harley speedometers both read95 mph the beemer read 115. he was suprized !!! that i kept up with him on my 350 jawa. my speedo read 83 mph.
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Reply #21 on: February 19, 2009, 10:06:22 pm
I had a Triumph 500 Trophy - anything above 80 or so on the speedo just wasn't comfy... Honda CB 350 was faster, but buzzier...  caught a ride on a Kawasaki 500 triple (the old "Blue Streak") the first year they came out ('69?) and went so fast so quickly (in a straight line, thank God, cause the handling and brakes SUCKED...) that I decided I didn't want to do that anymore.

Thumpin' is fine with me !

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PhilJ

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Reply #22 on: February 20, 2009, 01:29:33 am
Those Jawas were great bikes. Run and run and run.....

A friend of mine has a pretty good collection of them. He's the RE dealer in Ft. Worth.
Some of the BMW speedos were optimistic and others were reasonably accurate.


La Poderosa

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Reply #23 on: February 20, 2009, 03:19:03 am
I think that is true. My 90/6 was always pretty close, wheras my buddy's r65 was off of the chart.