Author Topic: year to year changes  (Read 5700 times)

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re2

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on: December 26, 2008, 04:32:43 am
I would like to know what changes there were made from 2002 to 2007 on the deluxe model


The Garbone

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Reply #1 on: December 26, 2008, 01:06:36 pm
Sadly, so would the plant in India...  LOL...   Just kidding.... 

Seriously, a good question.  I know the use of Metric and Witworth bolts changed in the quantity of each,  but I have an 07 and it still has a few Witworth.  Probably maybe some emissions gear on the stock exhaust and the availability of a 5sp vs 4spd gearbox.  I don't know when that trans change was made but it was recent (in the last decade or so)

Also I don't know when the KS only machine stopped being sold..  I would have liked the option to buy one new...
Gary
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redcat

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Reply #2 on: December 26, 2008, 02:47:43 pm
I think,the end of the kick start only models was 2001. My bullet is a 2002 with ES and I am fairly certain it was the first year.
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72westie

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Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 03:20:52 pm
2002 was the first year for electric start. They still offered kick starts as a option at least until a year or two ago, but they brought very few over.
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t120rbullet

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Reply #4 on: December 26, 2008, 05:12:37 pm
To name a few more,
They put an o-ring on the countershaft sprocket sometime in mid 02.
They bodged the crankcase breather in 04 except on the 65.
Somewhere along the line the PAV came in.
The clutch gained a plate in there somewhere.
The exhaust valve changed to a sodium cooled one in 07?
The seat got softer and flatter.
The gas tank got the flip top locking cap.
The TLS brake changed in mid 02.
The muffler got bigger and the exhaust pipe got a cat converter.
There's probably a thousand more too.

 
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Cabo Cruz

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Reply #5 on: December 26, 2008, 06:30:35 pm
The 5-speed tranny became available in 2004 with the introduction of the Sixty-5.  The new transmission made its way to the other models, such as the Deluxe, as well in 2005.
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re2

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Reply #6 on: December 27, 2008, 02:43:26 am
thanks for the replies,I'm currently looking at purchasing a 2002 Deluxe and was wandering if a latter year would be any better -- am I right than that the 2002 will only be 4 speed gear box . Its an eBay deal and info is scarce, I thought it was a 5 speed--New to this board so I will rely on yall --Been wanting an R E for some time and I quess nows the time  ;D


Leonard

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Reply #7 on: December 27, 2008, 04:25:34 am
Wait on that new one and get the two year warranty.
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ace.cafe

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Reply #8 on: December 27, 2008, 02:53:49 pm
thanks for the replies,I'm currently looking at purchasing a 2002 Deluxe and was wandering if a latter year would be any better -- am I right than that the 2002 will only be 4 speed gear box . Its an eBay deal and info is scarce, I thought it was a 5 speed--New to this board so I will rely on yall --Been wanting an R E for some time and I quess nows the time  ;D

2002 is a good year Bullet, but it was a transition year, so it could be Imperial threads or metric threads in the engine, depending on what time of year it was made.
No problem either way. You just have to know when you begin to work on it. Later ones were metric, but I don't know the exact time of transition.

It will be a 4 speed, as a 2002 model.
Quality of the 2002 models is quite good, and they did get better as they went along.
But, they also did some "not-so-good" things as they went along too, in the years starting with 2004, and later.
I would really strive to get one with the older style engine breather on the left side of the crankcase, under the cylinder fin area. That's the correct breather for this engine. The later ones moved the breather to the top of the oil tank, and unfortunately that CANNOT EVER provide the correct breathing needed for the Bullet engine, unless you plug it and restore the older type(which involves an engine tear-down). The new type can "limp by" and be made to not blow oil out, but it will never give the low pressure zone inside the crankcase that a correct breathing system needs to do.
A 2002 model will have the correct breather on it.

While the 2002 models were available with an electric starter, I would strongly suggest avoiding that, unless there is some over-riding necessity for it. They are nothing but trouble, and there are plenty of threads going on this forum where they are exhibiting costly breakages quite commonly. It's best avoided, if you can live with a kick-start-only Bullet. IMO, the e-start is a problem waiting to happen, and it can totally be eliminated as a trouble source, if you just buy a kick-start bike. There were plenty of kick-start-only Bullets made, all the way up to 2004, and the e-start was optional. You can buy a 2002 or 2003 Bullet with kick-start-only, but you might have to look around a while. They are out there. Of course, anything earlier than 2002 will be a kick-start-only Bullet.
If you find a Bullet that you just "have to have", and it is e-start, you can get it and live with the e-start until it breaks. Then you can convert the primary side to kick-start-only for a few hundred dollars, and that will solve that.

So, basically, we have a set of changes which were made over time, some of which are good, and some of which are bad. The engine breather being the most egregious bad one. And the E-start being the one most likely to cause you a major repair problem.
The 5-speed tranny is very nice, and is worth having, but the 4-speed is not horrible at all, and it works fine with a bit of breaking-in and maybe some "sorting out". The 5 speed box can be put onto that bike/engine, but it will REQUIRE  that the gearbox be changed to right-side shifting, because the engine made for a 4-speed does not have the tunnel thru the oil tank and CANNOT be made to work with left side shift with the 5-speed. But, it will go right on there, if converted to right side shift. It's pretty pricey to do that, but it can be done.
Generally, if you find a 5-speed bike, it also has the later breather on it. So you get some bad with your good.
Most of the 5-speed bikes also came with the improved front brake plate, for better braking with the TLS drum brake.

Here's what I decided was a good way to go.
Get the bike that you like. Then, over time, work on converting the factory bodges back to correct, as you go along.
My idea of the "best Bullet" is a kick-start, 5-speed gearbox with right side shift, early  type breather, no pollution equipment, later(post 2004) front brake plate, premium cables, and a good free-flowing intake and exhaust system.
It's probably easier to get an early 4-speed bike to get the right breather on it, and then convert to the right-side-shift  5-speed gearbox later, than it is to tear down the engine and re-do the breather system.

I have the 4-speed gearbox on my road Bullet, and it works quite satisfactorily. I know that the 5-speed is better, but the 4-speed is not destroying my Bullet riding experience in any way. I enjoy my bike with the 4-speed gearbox, and when I can afford to do it, I'll switch over the the 5-speed right-side-shift. Many people keep the 4-speed box forever, and it will do fine. It's the original Bullet gearbox design from the old days, and it is more "period correct" anyway. Yes, the 5-speed is better in every way, but the 4-speed can provide enjoyable riding, and probably shouldn't be a barrier to purchasing a bike you like.

So, to sum up, no matter which Bullet you pick, there will be some things that will need to be changed to get it "just right". Some of these things are easier to overcome than others. Any Bullet you buy will give good enjoyment as soon as you get it, and may need some initial "sorting out" from the condition you buy it in,  but typically can be done relatively quickly and inexpensively after you get it. You might get lucky and not have to sort-out anything.
Any of this other stuff could be looked-at as "optimizing" it for the way you like it, and the best overall configuration, and can be done as you go along.
To me, getting the right breather is important, and that's one that doesn't have it on the oil tank. Anything else is just a "bolt-on" type of change. The later type breathers on the oil tank work(if sorted correctly), but will never be a really correct-working breather.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 03:39:30 pm by ace.cafe »
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re2

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Reply #9 on: December 28, 2008, 11:21:05 pm
thank you Ace ,that's the stuff I need to know I currently own 4 bikes and have owned several brit bikes over the years so wrenching is all part of it. what's the problem with the E-start can't it be sorted out or is it a lost cause due to poor materials used in manufacture or poor design of the starter/ mechanism. I do not have the bike yet so I can't look at the problems you've noted. the bike I'm interested in has electric and kick start but I'm the type that if its on there it has to work whether I use it or not


ace.cafe

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Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 12:03:04 am
thank you Ace ,that's the stuff I need to know I currently own 4 bikes and have owned several brit bikes over the years so wrenching is all part of it. what's the problem with the E-start can't it be sorted out or is it a lost cause due to poor materials used in manufacture or poor design of the starter/ mechanism. I do not have the bike yet so I can't look at the problems you've noted. the bike I'm interested in has electric and kick start but I'm the type that if its on there it has to work whether I use it or not

The e-start works, but has shown high likelihood of breakages over the years that it's been available, due to a variety of reasons.  Design and materials both.
The Bullet sometimes will kick-back during starting, particularly if you are  changing the jetting or have some lean condition occur, and when this happens with the e-start, they break the sprag.

My view is that they break commonly enough, and are expensive enough to repair, and the fact that the bike can't run until it's fixed, all add up to something that I cannot recommend. It's just way too likely that it's gonna break.

The e-start bikes in years 2002 and later are quite common to see on the used market, because the "concept" of having an e-start on their Bullet was appealing to customers, so they sold well. It's a bit harder to find a kick-start-only Bullet from those years, 2002-on.
But, they were made, and sold, and they are out there.
Around 2005,  the kick-start-only was totally discontinued, so you won't find any recent bikes with only a kickstarter. They all became e-start bikes with kickstarter as an auxiliary. Alot of people just use the kickstarter on their e-start bikes, in hopes that they won't break the sprag if they don't use it. And that does reduce the possibility of it breaking, if you don't use it. But there have been instances of it breaking anyway, even when not used.

My advice is that if you feel comfortable using a kicker, then seek a post-2000 Bullet that does not have the e-start system on it. Then you won't ever have the problem, and the bike is lighter, less complex, more reliable, and  looks better without it on there. It's easy to start with the kicker anyway. Not a hard thing to do.

It's unfortunate that the e-start system has had such a dismal service record, but that's the way it is, so I'm trying to tell it to you straight.
The very newest models are supposed to have some "fix" that is supposed to have taken care of the problem. CMW should be able to tell you if there is any possibility that the "fix" can be implemented onto the older bikes.  I don't think so, because the older bikes have points ignition, and the "fix", I believe, has something to do with the later electronic ignition systems, but I'm not certain about that.

That's the straight dope on the matter. No "sugar coating". If you get the e-start, there's a good chance it's gonna break. Some members here have had their sprags break more than once, during their ownership.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 12:44:25 am by ace.cafe »
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Merrill

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Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 06:25:36 am
But there have been instances of it breaking anyway, even when not used.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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here I sit in a state called Washington full of doubt.
/
I once purchased a triumph which the owner said had seized.
Thur the course of the discussion, I was told the machine had
run when last parked,
/
turns out the correct rendering of the term seized in this application was rings
corroded to cylinder walls. I bought the bike, easy fix.
/
as people we don't take the time to hear what others are saying,
and often we are repeating what others have heard.
/
and yet I've worked with a few talented souls capable of destroying
a forged hammer in less than twenty minutes if left unattended.
/
merrill
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 06:42:06 am by Merrill »


Jeri Danger

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Reply #12 on: December 29, 2008, 04:54:16 pm
I think,the end of the kick start only models was 2001. My bullet is a 2002 with ES and I am fairly certain it was the first year.
Hi
My bike is a 2003, it is a kickstart only.
Also it still has witworth fasteners.
Jeri


re2

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Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 05:59:02 pm
thanks everyone for the wake up info. Been wanting[not needing] an Enfield long enough to wait and learn more of the quirks before I commit,followed the Russian bikes for 10 years till they got their shit together, but when I did get one I am well pleased with the factory refinement's I guess I'll let the 2002 go and wait for a better time to Enfield the shpt I have a 1984 R65 to sell to finance the Enfield


ace.cafe

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Reply #14 on: December 29, 2008, 06:14:13 pm
thanks everyone for the wake up info. Been wanting[not needing] an Enfield long enough to wait and learn more of the quirks before I commit,followed the Russian bikes for 10 years till they got their shit together, but when I did get one I am well pleased with the factory refinement's I guess I'll let the 2002 go and wait for a better time to Enfield the shpt I have a 1984 R65 to sell to finance the Enfield

The traditional iron barrel Bullets are done, and there will be no further refinements to them. If you want the traditional type engine, then all we can do is pick from what's already out there. They can no longer pass emissions, so they are discontinued.
The newer AVL-engined Electra or AVL Classic, are the new breed which refined some things, but not all.
Next year we have the new Unit-Construction-Engine(UCE) models coming out, and they might be what you're looking for. They are not the antique engines like the traditional Bullets, but are a nice modern retro type bike, which promises to be very good indeed.
Keep an eye out for those new ones, and they might be the blend of higher reliability, performance, and looks that you may be seeking.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 06:16:46 pm by ace.cafe »
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Cabo Cruz

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Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 08:26:43 pm
"Next year we have the new Unit-Construction-Engine (UCE) models coming out, and they might be what you're looking for. They are not the antique engines like the traditional Bullets, but are a nice modern retro type bike, which promises to be very good indeed.  Keep an eye out for those new ones, and they might be the blend of higher reliability, performance, and looks that you may be seeking."  Ace

RE2, I second the motion (Ace's wise words) based on your patient, 10-year wait for the Ural product.
Long live the Bullets and those who ride them!

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jonapplegate

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Reply #16 on: January 02, 2009, 03:26:21 am
man, Garbone's comment about the India plant made me laugh out loud, and that doesn't happen often!