[Joe28]

So, my truck is in the garage getting annual state inspection, (it's only got 2000 miles since last Nov.. Can you tell I've Been running my bikes a lot)?
It had rained Saturday, then got REALLY cold Sunday, snow flurries last night and this morning.
My '09 Military was purchased just for this, (with my missing side car that's still on it "cruise" here).
I've got the engine guard covered with a old stop sign cut to fit, a "Batwing" fairing on the handle bars from my old Dnepr that keeps 99% of the wind off me, I should be warm.
I head to the "bike shed", (over filled with 4 bikes, riding gear, parts, tools, you name it, it's more than likely in there somewhere).
Get my safety riding gear on, pull the Enfield out, kick start it, (I dunno why, but lately I've been doing that. It usually fires 1-2 kicks cold). Today-5 tries.
It sputters and dies.
I hit the starter, VAROOOOOM- ENFIELD POWER!
Then CLUNK! It stalls.
(Now, I KNOW what this means! But, I PRAYING I"M WRONG).
Hit the "magic button". Starter spins like a raped ape, (how fast can a raped ape spin?)
The freakin starter drive is Ka-Put!
Now what? I'm late, the bike is broke, I'm not gonna fire it up cuz you never know if "Reese's Pieces are in the engine WAITING to cause trouble.
So, I take the 1500 Vulcan in to work, carefully, (thankfully no run off ice).
It's only 1 month old, 475 miles.
What IS causing the drives to fail?
Is the replacement part better?
I though the newer bikes had a better one?
My dealer is more than an hour away, so I'd really hate to haul it there for a simple starter problem.
Some days the Bear bites you, and today it was my turn!
Joe
I ride, therefore I am!

[23hp]

Another one!!! I

It fails because it is useless and was badly designed. 

Even the newer AVL´s, like mine, which have the resistor fitted still have Sprag clutch failures although it is said that not as often.  As the AVL is on its way out I doubt Royal Enfield will even attempt a costly redesign...

Mine failed and was repaired (at my own cost) and eventually the Sprag Clutch under guarantee arrived so I at least have a spare.  As far as I can tell its still the same useless part and not any stronger...

Funny thing is that mine gave a large clang the other day using the electric start again and I thought, NOT AGAIN!  It even clangs sometimes during the kickstart.  I'm not even going to attempt to open her up again until she gives me some further symptoms like stalling and clanging at slow speeds or Clanging every time.

Last time for me it was just a slight break:

see: http://23hp.blogspot.com/2008/11/afterthoughts.html

but if your starter isn't turning at all then it sounds as if its really jammed which could cause a nasty reaction in your primary if you don't sort it out.  You could do a quick check by draining the oil outside the primary and looking for any fragments of metal if you don't want to go to the dealer straight away...

Good luck!

[exiledcarper]

Wouldn't it  be nice if they had carried on producing a kickstart option?  Soon to be irrelevant with the UCE, I suppose.

[ace.cafe]

The typical breakage is caused during a kick-back.

The engine kicks back during the starting process, and this knocks the teeth off the sprag or breaks it altogether. Sometimes ruining the front primary gear in the process, because they are machined as one unit with the sprag drive gear. A little bit lean, or a little bit advanced, or a little bit of cold weather when starting, and you can get kick-backs. Or even if you don't use the decompressor and try to "whang" it right thru the compression cycle. Which, coincidentally, is what the e-start units do. Or, "try to do", as the case may be.

In the early days of the e-start in the Electra, they didn't know that the electronic ignition system which they also put in the bikes at around the same time, had this nasty habit of going advanced when there was a voltage drop. Unfortunately, running the starter motor causes a voltage drop. Then the ignition advanced during starting, causing a kick-back, and BANG.
This was fixed later as an add-on fix, and later Electra models came with the modification.

In the early e-starts in the iron-barrel Bullets, the sprag gears didn't get hardened correctly in some cases, and were brittle.  Running a little lean, or trying a cold weather start-up? BANG.

I think BANG seems to be the operative word with the E-start.
At least if you get a few bad kick-backs with the kickstarter, all you have to do is put in a new $5 pawl on the kickstarter.

A long stroke single is no place for an electric starter.
This is why God gave men a right leg.
That, and of course, to shift with, as everyone knows that the shifting is to be done with the right foot, and the proper place for a brake pedal is on the left.

[PaulF]

My 2008, even with the mod, slips a ton when the button is poked, (no frags in the primary - just did PM).

I think I would rather kick till I'm blue, then bump-start it down a hill, then ever touch that button again. I fear the next time I use it, it will detonate.

[taildraggin]

Wouldn't it  be nice if they had carried on producing a kickstart option?  Soon to be irrelevant with the UCE, I suppose.

It looked to me as though the UCE uses a sprag clutch for starting, too.

[ace.cafe]

Notice that on the first real "cold snap" of the year, we have reports of 2 bikes blowing out their sprags within about 24 hours of each other.

Cold weather causes a lean condition, fellas.
Kick-back city.

Be warned.
Use your leg.
And change your jets if you need to. It's a long winter.

[Kevin Mahoney]

Ace is generally right and he is generally right on this issue as well. However the Brits along with the factory have done extensive research on the subject over a period of years. They initially also thought that a low voltage may have caused the spark  to advance, but finally ruled that out. Some issues that come to mind on both types of bikes are the fit of the bush in the cases of the idler gear. If the bush is loose in the case or if there is not a snug fit it can cause the idler to cock and cause damage or more damage with the kickback. If you ever take one apart look for this.
  After some years the Brits fairly recently determined that a BIG issue with the AVL engine is related to ignition noise. Simply put, when the starter motor is operated it creates electrical interference. This interference in certain ignition modules will cause a spark at an inappropriate time.  For the past six months or so  we have had our dealers install a resistor across the leads of the ignition units to help prevent this. It has been fairly successful but not 100%. More recently (like a week ago) the factory sent us some new ignition units which are electrically shielded better and have a short delay built into them. So far in UK testing they have prevented sprag failure 100% of the time.
I have thousands of the resistors and if any of you would like one give us a call and we will send you one gratis. I am also willing to give any of you with an AVL engine who has lost a sprag a new ignition unit to try - also gratis except for postage.

The iron barrel bikes with points are sensitive to being over advanced on the timing and too lean. If you take care of these you should be good. Also this problem only occurs on some bikes with no rhyme or reason.

The UCE engine has a sprag, but it is a totally different arrangement and has been trouble free.

[ace.cafe]

Very nice and generous offer, Kevin.
Bravo!

And thanks for sharing that additional information about the ignition issues.

Proving once again that we're all in this boat together, and it is good for all of us if we all help each other row the boat.

[Joe28]

I don't have the AVL engine. Mine beauty is a '09 Military with the Electra motor.
I took the stater off, (hoping it was a broken shaft or something simple, (but NO!), starter works well, gear shaft perfect.
Then the side cover came off,  no "Reeces Pieces", all the gear teeth are still intact.
The sprag part must be Ka-Put, no surprise.
Now as for timing causing it, I don't think so.
It was in the low 30 when I fired it up, rev it up a few times and was putting it on the center stand when it exploded.
I keep it on a battery tender, so the battery was up. When it fires I always check the amp gauge, it didn't go up more than it did the other times I fired it up.
Here's a thought...................................
It had been sitting a few days, I have 10-40 motor oil in the clutch, @ 650 ML.
Could the bushing been dry? this cause the sprag to engage, and PARTICLY disengage until the engine caught it and WHAM  broke it?
Would ATF ( or a lighter oil than 10-40), have lubed the spar better, maybe 850 ML to get the oil up there to lube it?
Looking at the manual, I was gonna rip it apart myself, but seeing how there are a few gaskets and seals, (crank, shifter) involved, I think I'll call my dealer, (he gave me the O.K. to try it), I'll have him order the parts,  let him rip it apart and see if he can see something different.
I CAN kick start it, I have in the past, and will continue to do so until it's fixed, but with 2 metal knees, I'd rather use the kick starter as a back up.
Joe
Well! You can't expect parts to work forever! Look at me, my knees didn't even last 50 years before they wore out!

[PaulF]

Joe, to be clear, the Electra motor is the AVL motor.

You are indeed a member of the AVL club.

[ace.cafe]

Joe, to be clear, the Electra motor is the AVL motor.

You are indeed a member of the AVL club.

Joe,
I don't know specifically what might have caused your particular sprag frag, but it's just another example of these things blowing out.

With your metal knees, I can understand your desire to use the e-start. So, you'll just have to use it and take what comes.
For people without metal knees, or some other leg issue, then I think it's prudent to avoid the problem as much as possible, by kick-starting the bike.

[PhilJ]

Wonderful posts Kevin, Ace etal.
I think I'll order the resistor .... incase my knee frags. Groan   

[REpozer]

Thanks  Kevin,
 
I'll be callin soon, I need something to do ,I  put my RE up for the winter after a quick run on ice covered road (little too spooky) and installed a battery tender.

[Tiny Tim]

Just as a point of interest, my sprag fragged when the engine stalled on a cold, low tickover.

This could have happened if it had been kickstarted, electric started or bump started.

Kicking can not guarantee an intact sprag clutch.

REgards

TT

[PaulF]

This is off-topic, but it's an interesting question, brought up by own superior stupidity.

On a sunny day this past summer, I was sailing past a popular Delaware River side stop where the bikers gather. I saw a buddy there and leaned on the horn button - nothing happened. It was then that I realized that I was leaning on the electric start button whilst traveling 55!

Is there a cut-out that engages at some point to prevent the sprag clutch from engaging when the motor is spinning at X 1000 RPM to prevent the starter and primary case from exploding??

If so, I'm greatful to the engineers in Chennai.

[ace.cafe]

I really don't know the answer to the question about a "safety lockout" for the starter when riding.
I never looked into that.

I'd be interested to hear the answer myself.

[Tiny Tim]

There is no safety cut out as such.

When you press the starter button you are extending a +ve feed from the ignition switch to the starter solonoid. The other low current wire from the starter solonoid goes to the clutch switch first to look for an earth return path. It also goes via the neutral light to the neutral switch and looks for an earth there.

So.... if you had leant on the horn (via the starter) with either the clutch in or had been in neutral, the starter would have engaged.

This does not shatter your sprag clutch. I've just tried it!

[23hp]

Could be wrong here, but when I had it all opened up recently it looked to me like the Sprag Clutch is constantly spinning when the engine is running, or at least the bike moving and the only way to really protect it 100% from breaking is to remove it along with the other spindles and plug the hole,

http://niederle.googlepages.com/spragclutchwoes

Anyone?

[PaulF]

Thanks Tim

Does that mean, (not that it matters - I think we all look for neutral), if it's on the center stand and in gear, the E-start will not engage?

[ace.cafe]

Could be wrong here, but when I had it all opened up recently it looked to me like the Sprag Clutch is constantly spinning when the engine is running, or at least the bike moving and the only way to really protect it 100% from breaking is to remove it along with the other spindles and plug the hole,

http://niederle.googlepages.com/spragclutchwoes

Anyone?

Yes, there have been some reports described here lately which show the sprag clutch gears can frag even when you're not doing a starting procedure.
But, I'd venture to say that the likelihood of fragging is higher during starting.
So, percentage-wise, you'd be going a long way toward not fragging them if you just don't use the starter.
Of course, taking them out altogether would preclude any damage to them, and that would be an option.

[23hp]

Thanks for confirming Ace, I´ve still got one more spare left before I go drastic and remove the lot 

[Tiny Tim]

Thanks Tim

Does that mean, (not that it matters - I think we all look for neutral), if it's on the center stand and in gear, the E-start will not engage?

The starter can only engage if the clutch is in or the bike's in neutral.

The kick stand does not prevent the starter from spinning. It prevents the ignition giving a spark..

[faltnerc]

That´s right, Tim!

I tried both and nearly got mad!
The electric start only works when the green neutral light is on!
If you are in neutral and the light is not on (what can happen sometimes), there is no reaction and you try to disassemble the bike to find what is wrong (fuses?), but you´ll find nothing!

Regards
Chris

[Tiny Tim]

Chris,
That'll be one of the false neutrals that come free with all Enfields. less common in the 5-speed box but there all the same.

No clutch or no neutral light = no starter.

What the Booleans call an OR gate I think?

[Kevin Mahoney]

In early ES bikes there was a blue box in the left hand tool box. It was the "auto starter cutoff switch". It's purpose was to disallow the starter from being engaged while the engine was running. It was an unusual device in that you don't see them on many other bikes. It created a problem because they dropped enough voltage that in many cases there was not enough left to actuate the starter solenoid. After a couple of years they dropped it. The also advised us to remove them from any bikes that were having trouble.

I think that is your neutral light is not operating correctly you can start the bike by pulling in the clutch.

[Tiny Tim]

RE1,

I have come across a similar device in the UK fitted to early classic ES models. It disengages the starter after 1 - 1.5 seconds.

Please don't ask me why, I can't see the point. Perhaps that's why it dissapeared?

Re Neutral light comment, if it's just the bulb gone then the earth from the gearbox is all that the solonoid needs to see. This earth is not extended by the selection of false neutrals. The clutch switch provides an alternative source for the solonoid to find a path to earth.

[scoTTy]

Kevin I'm curious..  Yall sent me one of those 1st units about 8 months ago..  So there is a new one coming out? ..  what would be the price on that unit..  the one I have works,, but sometimes it acts a little weird,  thanks

[REpozer]

Just finish installing a resister. Everything works fine!

Thanks  Jim at CMW for the instructions and some advice over the phone.

The job was easy after I understood what I  was supposed to do.

[REpozer]

Will I need a  new ignition unit as well ?   My sprag is still working , I have 1500 mile on the bike.

[Kevin Mahoney]

There are several issues with sprigs. I am speaking now only of Lantern or AVL bikes. Most sprigs fail because of a kickback of some sort. A much smaller number self destruct because of the loose bushing in the inner primary case. So from most remote to most common:
1. If you change a sprig check the fit of the bushing for the idler gear into the inner chaincase and the the fit of the idler gear into the bush. Replace if needed. Sometimes a Sp rag failure can crack the inner case and go unnoticed, so inspect youres carefully if repairing a damaged sprag.

2. Far more common - The Brits did a lot of research on this. Some of it led to blind alleys. For a while they thought that low battery voltage may change the timing. This rumor has taken on a life of its own. After lots of testing in many conditions they determined that it did not - dry hole number 1.

Then they discovered that most of their sprig failures occurred right after the bike had been restarted when hot. They also discovered that you could get the engine to kick over once with the key turned off when hot. That led to a lot of work on hot spots etc. Another dry hole.

The first answer was a delay circuit. This would not allow a spark until the engine was cranking some, thereby eliminating  any tendency for a spark to make the engine kick. Good idea, but in practice was only partially helpful. The issue was mainly due to getting the circuit right in a manufacturing setting. Too much variance. We gave away a lot of these and it helped though.

Finally after years of work with a scope, they determined that the starting motor caused inductive coupling with the ignition system. Said another way, the starter motor interfered electrically with the ignition system causing it to spark at inappropriate times. The first answer was to fit a resistor across the two leads of the ignition system. this helped make it less vulnerable to the electrical noise from the starter motor.  The resistor has worked well, but not at 100%.

Most recently the factory has sent us some modified ignition systems that are not at all vulnerable to the extra electrial impulse created by the starter. So far these have worked 100% in the UK. We are now sending them out with all new AVLS' as part of a test program. If you have an AVL engine we would be happy to send you one, just let us know. They are easy to install.

[fun2drum]

I think I'd like that ignition upgrade, so how do I get one?

[REpozer]

Call CMW ,they will send you one.