Author Topic: Goodbye Himalyan 410?  (Read 1468 times)

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mattsz

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on: March 29, 2019, 11:44:56 AM
In another thread, this subject came up - a claim was made that the Himi 410 single was going to be discontinued worldwide, to be replaced by a 650 version.  This version will purportedly have its own newly designed engine.

I've seen many reports about the Himi 650; many include photos which appear to show a Himi frame with the current 650 "street bike" engine.  Obviously, these could be test bikes, or even more likely, "artist renditions."

Anyone have any insight here?  Would RE really develop the 410 from scratch only to drop it so quickly?  Isn't the 410 more the kind of bike (lower cost, higher fuel economy) that the vast majority of RE's worldwide customer base would want?


Adrian II

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Reply #1 on: March 29, 2019, 11:59:14 AM
Quote
Would RE really develop the 410 from scratch only to drop it so quickly?

As the more recent version seems to be highly successful, I would hope not, but it really should have been adopted to power a roadster version by now, perhaps with a 535 option? The current UCE Bullet range has been in production since 2007/8, maybe it's time to have another look at that.

Do off-road riders really want the weight of a 650 lump in there, unless you're trying to re-create the 60's desert-sleds?

A.
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Beardo

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Reply #2 on: March 29, 2019, 01:40:18 PM
Let's put a stop to this right now. The statements made in the other thread you mentioned, were either fueled by misunderstanding, misinformation or a combination of the both.

Let's think about this rationally, the 'new' motor designed specifically for the Himalayan, has already come to fruition, the LS410. The motor the 650 Himalayan variant will have, already exists with the street going twins. Will it be slightly altered for a more offroad application, probably. Will it be new from the ground up? No.

The teething problems with the LS410 motor have been sorted. RE isn't going to discontinue a motor/platform that out performs their very own 500 motor, in every way.

That garbled mess was just this, speculation and hearsay. Let us keep our wits about us...
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Narada

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Reply #3 on: March 29, 2019, 06:21:36 PM
Although I'm sure many people would like the option of the 650 twin in their Himalayan, what about the base concept of the lightweight, (not overpowered) off road bike? Is that just being tossed?

I can't imagine why a platform that is selling as fast as dealers can get them in, would just be cancelled.  And what about that low cost with the 410 too? I suppose it will be fine to have the twin as an option, but I can't see cancelling the single.  It could use a little more power, but replacing it outright with a big twin will change the very basic nature of what the bike is.

Everything I've seen lately shows a very dependable Royal Enfield Himalayan going anywhere and everywhere in the world.

"Itchy Boots" / Noraly from Holland is just one example; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEIs9nkveW9WmYtsOcJBwTg   Going across India, through Asia, and now in the middle east.  Just regular maintenance along the way.
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Adrian II

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Reply #4 on: March 30, 2019, 03:51:21 PM
The key is the OPTION of a 650 version. Beardo's spirited defense of the 410 would be widely echoed by the model's fans world-wide.

The trouble is we also see too many speculative artists' renditions being splashed around, a lot of them just wishful thinking.

A.
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Bilgemaster

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Reply #5 on: March 31, 2019, 05:43:24 PM
I have little doubt that they will continue to produce the 410cc single Himis for their home and Southeast Asia markets. In fact, if anything, they could probably get away with "sleeving down" the capacity to 200cc or so with some reduction of features and other fripperies to better cater to the markets there, which are FAR more cost conscious than in western markets of both purchase and operation costs. It's a real race to the bottom dollar, or rupee, yonder. But unlike the average Indian or Indonesian rider, I couldn't care less what the fuel mileage may be on my old "Iron Belly" Bullet 500, apart from it potentially being a diagnostic tool to warn of poor engine performance. I have never even measured it. Whatever it is, it's got to be an order of magnitude thriftier than my Dodge Durango V-8. But here's the thing with those 410s here in the States: with a reported "most comfortable cruising speed" of about 60 mph that's just about 10 mph too slow for our Interstate highways for most riders. Sure, I'd be just fine and dandy with that. But then I'm oddly perfectly content nursing an old Bullet around the byways at about 55, going out of my way to avoid the big fast multilaners. I suspect most of my less sedate countrymen and women might be happier with a slightly speedier twin for commuting and all-round touring. But then, like many others here on this Forum, I expect, I'd still probably prefer the single for its long-stroke torquey and more "elemental pluck," and I hope it remains an option, even if they should shoehorn some variant of their new twin engine into that frame. Unlike their little 350 Bullets, which aren't even sold here, those single Himis do have their own distinctive virtues for discerning mixed-surface riders, even if there were a twin offered.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 07:00:16 PM by Bilgemaster »
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ace.cafe

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Reply #6 on: March 31, 2019, 09:41:52 PM
I have little doubt that they will continue to produce the 410cc single Himis for their home and Southeast Asia markets. In fact, if anything, they could probably get away with "sleeving down" the capacity to 200cc or so with some reduction of features and other fripperies to better cater to the markets there, which are FAR more cost conscious than in western markets of both purchase and operation costs. It's a real race to the bottom dollar, or rupee, yonder. But unlike the average Indian or Indonesian rider, I couldn't care less what the fuel mileage may be on my old "Iron Belly" Bullet 500, apart from it potentially being a diagnostic tool to warn of poor engine performance. I have never even measured it. Whatever it is, it's got to be an order of magnitude thriftier than my Dodge Durango V-8. But here's the thing with those 410s here in the States: with a reported "most comfortable cruising speed" of about 60 mph that's just about 10 mph too slow for our Interstate highways for most riders. Sure, I'd be just fine and dandy with that. But then I'm oddly perfectly content nursing an old Bullet around the byways at about 55, going out of my way to avoid the big fast multilaners. I suspect most of my less sedate countrymen and women might be happier with a slightly speedier twin for commuting and all-round touring. But then, like many others here on this Forum, I expect, I'd still probably prefer the single for its long-stroke torquey and more "elemental pluck," and I hope it remains an option, even if they should shoehorn some variant of their new twin engine into that frame. Unlike their little 350 Bullets, which aren't even sold here, those single Himis do have their own distinctive virtues for discerning mixed-surface riders, even if there were a twin offered.
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Beardo

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Reply #7 on: April 01, 2019, 12:37:34 AM
I have little doubt that they will continue to produce the 410cc single Himis for their home and Southeast Asia markets. In fact, if anything, they could probably get away with "sleeving down" the capacity to 200cc or so with some reduction of features and other fripperies to better cater to the markets there, which are FAR more cost conscious than in western markets of both purchase and operation costs. It's a real race to the bottom dollar, or rupee, yonder. But unlike the average Indian or Indonesian rider, I couldn't care less what the fuel mileage may be on my old "Iron Belly" Bullet 500, apart from it potentially being a diagnostic tool to warn of poor engine performance. I have never even measured it. Whatever it is, it's got to be an order of magnitude thriftier than my Dodge Durango V-8. But here's the thing with those 410s here in the States: with a reported "most comfortable cruising speed" of about 60 mph that's just about 10 mph too slow for our Interstate highways for most riders. Sure, I'd be just fine and dandy with that. But then I'm oddly perfectly content nursing an old Bullet around the byways at about 55, going out of my way to avoid the big fast multilaners. I suspect most of my less sedate countrymen and women might be happier with a slightly speedier twin for commuting and all-round touring. But then, like many others here on this Forum, I expect, I'd still probably prefer the single for its long-stroke torquey and more "elemental pluck," and I hope it remains an option, even if they should shoehorn some variant of their new twin engine into that frame. Unlike their little 350 Bullets, which aren't even sold here, those single Himis do have their own distinctive virtues for discerning mixed-surface riders, even if there were a twin offered.

To be fair, I have no trouble at 70-75 mph on the interstate on the Himalayan. Even saw the needle buried at a blistering 87 mph.
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ringoism

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Reply #8 on: April 02, 2019, 04:54:00 PM
The teething problems with the LS410 motor have been sorted. RE isn't going to discontinue a motor/platform that out performs their very own 500 motor, in every way.

Well, I certainly hope they don't drop the 410, I agree that a 650 (unless it's a 650 single on similar cases) would make an already pretty heavy bike way too heavy for my tastes, and outside North America's Interstates or the autobahns, the 410 will do what most people need it to.

Having said that, it doesn't outperform the 500 in every way.  Here in the Indian Himalayas, last week I rode both the EFI Himi and a Thunderbird 500x (also EFI), within a day or so of each other.  I've also ridden the carb'd Himi and carb'd Bullet 500 UCE side-by-side, and the 500's simply have a lot more torque - friend and I were switching off sharing both, and we both agreed.  The 410 would probably catch up / keep up at higher rpm's, but it is not as instantly responsive, it doesn't push you back in the punchy sort of way the way the Bullets do.  My modestly modded AVL500 also pulls MUCH more strongly.  IMO the Himi is an interesting bike, a good-looking bike, a kind of reasonable all-rounder, even a good-sounding bike (newer version anyway) - but it is a rather anemic performer, at least at 7,000ft and above.  Besides that, carb'd ones, at least, allegedly manage "only" around 25kmpl in the hills, whereas the 500 does at least 30-32.  Besides that, both versions of the Himi I rode still felt pretty unrefined in the engines - the vibes are there (though higher frequency than the Bullets, it was enough to make something rattle very irritatingly in the instrument cluster), the slightly clattery valvetrain is there (500's have hydraulic tappets), the deeper down sounds (piston-slap? Crank?) also were there under heavy throttle too - and neither bike was a high-miler. 

Other thing, apart from engines, is that it really doesn't have a lot of suspension or ground clearance... If a 650 comes, they cannot afford to make it any worse in that regard.  A Bullet with a high scrambler/woodsman pipe down the side would allow the brake lever to be raised, in which case it would have about as much ground clearance as the Himi - at least with someone actually sitting on it.  Despite the Bullet's lack of suspension travel (5.5" up front vs. the Himi's 7"), they actually aren't too bad on the rough tracks, they don't settle down through 2/3rds of the travel when you sit on them, the way the Himis do.  I've seen expert riders on the Ladakh road pushing the bikes'/riders' limits side-by-side, and was really surprised to see that the Himi couldn't really get ahead of a UCE350 (Electra) out there. 

You find a lot of people raving about them, there are the world-tourers / trail-riders who sound convincing, etc, and they're a pretty good value, but honestly I'm not overly impressed personally.  In general, though it might be the better balanced (or is it more compromised?) than either, I'd prefer my old DR350S or AVL Machismo any day.  Either is much quicker / more responsive, and the DR's suspension is to die for. 

-Eric 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 05:08:04 PM by ringoism »


Beardo

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Reply #9 on: April 02, 2019, 05:09:17 PM
Well, I certainly hope they don't drop the 410, I agree that a 650 (unless it's a 650 single on similar cases) would make an already pretty heavy bike way too heavy for my tastes, and outside North America or the autobahns, the 410 will do what most people need it to.

Having said that, it doesn't outperform the 500 in every way.  Here in the Indian Himalayas, last week I rode both the EFI Himi and a Thunderbird 500x (also EFI), within a day or so of each other.  I've also ridden the carb'd Himi and carb'd Bullet 500 UCE side-by-side, and the 500's simply have a lot more torque - friend and I were switching off sharing both, and we both agreed.  The 410 would probably catch up / keep up at higher rpm's, but it is not as instantly responsive, it doesn't push you back in the punchy sort of way the way the Bullets do.  My modestly modded AVL500 also pulls MUCH more strongly.  IMO the Himi is an interesting bike, a good-looking bike, a kind of reasonable all-rounder, even a good-sounding bike (newer version anyway) - but it is a rather anemic performer, at least at 7,000ft and above.  Besides that, carb'd ones, at least, allegedly manage "only" around 25kmpl in the hills, whereas the 500 does at least 30-32.  Besides that, both versions of the Himi I rode still felt pretty unrefined in the engines - the vibes are there (though higher frequency than the Bullets, it was enough to make something rattle very irritatingly in the instrument cluster), the slightly clattery valvetrain is there (500's have hydraulic tappets), the deeper down sounds (piston-slap? Crank?) also were there under heavy throttle too - and neither bike was a high-miler. 

Other thing, apart from engines, is that it really doesn't have a lot of suspension or ground clearance... If a 650 comes, they cannot afford to make it any worse in that regard.  A Bullet with a high scrambler/woodsman pipe down the side would allow the brake lever to be raised, in which case it would have about as much ground clearance as the Himi - at least with someone actually sitting on it.  Despite the Bullet's lack of suspension travel (5.5" up front vs. the Himi's 7"), they actually aren't too bad on the rough tracks, they don't settle down through 2/3rds of the travel when you sit on them, the way the Himis do.  I've seen expert riders on the Ladakh road pushing the bikes'/riders' limits side-by-side, and was really surprised to see that the Himi couldn't really get ahead of a UCE350 (Electra) out there. 

You find a lot of people raving about them, there are the world-tourers / trail-riders who sound convincing, etc, and they're a pretty good value, but honestly I don't really get it.  In general, though it might be the better balanced (or is it more compromised?) than either, I'd prefer my old DR350S or AVL Machismo any day.  Either is much quicker, and the DR's suspension is to die for. 

-Eric

Noticed you said you rode a carbed Himi. So, you haven't been on the FI version?

I had a DR350S. Suspension to die for??

You are kidding, right?

Of the two bikes, the DR and the Himi, the Himalayan is the better balanced of the two.

I was jumping for joy the day I sold my DR. One of the few bikes I was completely happy to see go...
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suitcasejefferson

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Reply #10 on: May 31, 2019, 09:42:02 AM
I had a Yamaha XT225 for over 10 years and 30,000 miles. I spent about $1000 on suspension upgrades, because I weigh 240 pounds, and while that is within the load capacity for the bike, the suspension obviously wasn't up to it. I paid $1500 for the bike during the great recession of 2008 for about half what it was worth, them spent another $3500 or so making improvements. While the new suspension kept the rear fender from rubbing on the rear tire, as I got older it made it harder and harder to get on and off of. Hopefully the Himalayan will handle my weight. It's something I'm going to have to look into. I don't even know what the Himalayans rated load capacity is right now.

I can't imagine anyone wanting a HEAVY 650cc street bike twin in an adventure bike. The handling would be awful, and the weight of that engine would likely damage the frame. That 650 twin is a boat anchor. I would think a 650cc single would be much more desirable. Weight is something you don't want in an off road bike. Even the KLR650 and DR650 are too big and heavy to be of much use off road.

Hopefully there is nothing to this rumor. No more 410 means no more 410 parts, which means a worthless bike
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Reply #11 on: June 06, 2019, 02:26:26 PM
650 Twin not needed. RE could easily make the existing engine output 30-34 hp and add another gear. This would push it into a more desirable category. Under line the word "could" because you know they won't.
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