Author Topic: New to me 2010  (Read 1357 times)

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Guaire

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Reply #15 on: March 14, 2019, 08:07:44 pm
Just for laughs, I have pulled in the clutch to while hitting the starter button. No go. Another 'thing' eliminated'. My work is cut out for me. Only one problem but so many possibilities.
  superbrightleds.com will be getting my lights here on Saturday.
I'll have some specifics to go after when I get back in the garage.
Cheers,
Bill
ACE Motors - sales & administration


Bert Remington

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Reply #16 on: March 14, 2019, 08:59:37 pm
Guaire -- since the restoration sequence I recommended isn't being followed, your continued electric start failures are putting both the starter and sprag clutch at risk of damage.  Therefore I recommend you remove the spark plug NOW and not install it until the starter is turning the motor over with fuel injection and ignition coil proven functional.  Begin with squirt of oil in the cylinder and a few rotations of the rear wheel while in 5th gear to ensure the piston and rings are ready to go.

Again, change the engine oil and filter now (cold) and especially the brake fluid.  You want the brakes working properly for your first ride and after 100 miles change the engine oil and filter (hot) again.  While the motorcycle was kept indoors, nine years of NC temperature and humidity variations will infiltrate moisture into both engine oil and brake fluid.

With only 1800 miles of operation, I think previous-owner wiring modifications [1] and 9 years of corrosion [2] are the most likely causes of the various electrical failures you are observing.  Pull the seat and fuel tank, then walk through the wiring harness.  Leave the tank off until you can get the motor turning over with the starter.  Put the tank back on with fresh fuel, verify fuel injection and ignition coil function, install an NGK 7131 spark plug, and it should run after 0.5 seconds of starter rotation.

[1] for instance, the extended handlebars may have pulled the two-pin connector for the clutch slightly apart causing a no-start.
[2] for instance, the copper-to-steel battery ground connection on the frame (vice starter) may have hidden corrosion affecting the ECU.  This connection is under the seat.
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version Fair-Weather Mountain Bike
2012 MG Norge 1200GT 8V roller lifters All-Season Freeway Cruiser
2000 BMW R1100RT "Ride Not Taken"


Bmadd34

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Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 08:23:39 pm
Guaire -- since the restoration sequence I recommended isn't being followed, your continued electric start failures are putting both the starter and sprag clutch at risk of damage.  Therefore I recommend you remove the spark plug NOW and not install it until the starter is turning the motor over with fuel injection and ignition coil proven functional.  Begin with squirt of oil in the cylinder and a few rotations of the rear wheel while in 5th gear to ensure the piston and rings are ready to go.

Again, change the engine oil and filter now (cold) and especially the brake fluid.  You want the brakes working properly for your first ride and after 100 miles change the engine oil and filter (hot) again.  While the motorcycle was kept indoors, nine years of NC temperature and humidity variations will infiltrate moisture into both engine oil and brake fluid.

With only 1800 miles of operation, I think previous-owner wiring modifications [1] and 9 years of corrosion [2] are the most likely causes of the various electrical failures you are observing.  Pull the seat and fuel tank, then walk through the wiring harness.  Leave the tank off until you can get the motor turning over with the starter.  Put the tank back on with fresh fuel, verify fuel injection and ignition coil function, install an NGK 7131 spark plug, and it should run after 0.5 seconds of starter rotation.

[1] for instance, the extended handlebars may have pulled the two-pin connector for the clutch slightly apart causing a no-start.
[2] for instance, the copper-to-steel battery ground connection on the frame (vice starter) may have hidden corrosion affecting the ECU.  This connection is under the seat.

    Living in NC I have to agree with Bert on this for the most part. I have seen quite a few bikes with "Mystery" electrical issues caused by sitting. Hell, if it is hot out and I go to pull my bike out, it has condensation on it. Mine stays inside at that. Never left outside. I have been able to resurrect bikes by simply going over the wiring, unplugging connectors, spraying contact cleaner on them and adding dielectric grease before plugging them back in. with the wider bars, it is worth a shot to check the connectors and as it was sitting, go ahead and check the grounds.
When Life hands you lemons, Squeeze them in his eyes and take his wallet.


Bert Remington

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Reply #18 on: March 16, 2019, 12:27:58 am
Guaire -- even if the starter relay functions, for the long term I recommend you replace it because the wire gauge is too small for reliable starter operation.  I suggest https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076H72BYZ/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 if you want to add accessories like I am or https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076HJBY3K/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 if you don't.  Actually the first relay can be quickly converted to the second by removal of the green fuse holder.  I haven't confirmed this but I believe either will fit in the rubber relay holder behind the battery bracket.

Replacing the major battery and starter wires has several benefits:

1. higher starter and ECU voltages under heavy load and low charge conditions
2. using a high strand count wire (eg audio power cabling) reduces vibration fracture failures
3. using better terminals with "anti-bending" support reduces vibration fracture failures

While 8 gauge is kinda overkill, something like this https://www.amazon.com/Rockville-R8G20B-Gauge-Ground-Install/dp/B017NECAY4/ref=sr_1_32?crid=2M1SSVEQ9Y3PW&keywords=amplifier+power+cable&qid=1552712919&s=automotive&sprefix=amplifier%2Cautomotive%2C190&sr=1-32 (20ft for $7.33) is a great price-performance point.  While the picture seems to show only 7 strands, a closer look and the text shows there are 7 ropes consisting of 62 strands of 0.15mm wire.  That's a very high strand count.  Buy it with fork oil https://www.amazon.com/Bel-Ray-10W-Fork-Oil-99320-B1LW/dp/B0045L90A6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=32TNXYTJ4C60D&keywords=bel+ray+10w+fork+oil&qid=1552713879&s=gateway&sprefix=bel+ray+10w%2Caps%2C185&sr=8-1 ($16.46) and spark plug https://www.amazon.com/NGK-BPR6ES-Spark-Plug-Stock/dp/B000N9MYB6/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=ngk+7131&qid=1552714012&s=gateway&sr=8-7 ($4.90) to get that price with free shipping.
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version Fair-Weather Mountain Bike
2012 MG Norge 1200GT 8V roller lifters All-Season Freeway Cruiser
2000 BMW R1100RT "Ride Not Taken"


Bmadd34

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Reply #19 on: March 16, 2019, 06:16:15 am
I don't know why I didn't ask this earlier, but, have you checked the small negative lead on the main negative terminal to the battery? This has failed twice on mine. Just a thought, hard to diagnose things long distance.
When Life hands you lemons, Squeeze them in his eyes and take his wallet.


Cat3625

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Reply #20 on: March 16, 2019, 12:20:05 pm
I'm a bit late to this post- did the bike run for the previous owner or did you buy it as a non runner?
Couple of questions re your starting issue,
when you turn on the ignition key does the red mil light come on and go off after a few seconds?
Then can you hear the fuel pump pulse up?
Have you checked the roll over switch?
2002 Bullet 350 Trials
2008 Bullet 500 Classic
2016 C5 Military 500 efi


mike_bike_kite

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Reply #21 on: March 17, 2019, 03:50:49 am
Bert, I use the kick starter almost exclusively on my C5 - will I still have problems with this lead? How do you fix a lead like that to the bike? do connectors need to be soldered on?
2018 Pegasus + NC750X + Vespa GT & GTS


tooseevee

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Reply #22 on: March 17, 2019, 08:29:57 am
Bert, I use the kick starter almost exclusively on my C5 - will I still have problems with this lead? How do you fix a lead like that to the bike? do connectors need to be soldered on?

             Soldering is, of course , best practice, but if you use good crimp fittings with a good crimper and use shrink-wrap you're in good shape unless you're going on a balls-to-the-wall, life and bike-threatening, round the world "adventure" trip*.

              If RE is still using those totally sh*tty battery terminals (like were on my 2008! AVL), they should be slapped.

              (Find and watch "The Trip". I think it was on Prime Video).   
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 08:32:49 am by tooseevee »
'08 Black AVL Classic.Extensive ACEhead work/manifold/canister. TM32.Small open bottle/hot tube removed. Pertronix Coil. Fed mandates removed. Bobber seat. Battery in right side case. Decomp&all doodads removed. '30s Lucas taillight/7"  headlight. Lots of blackout & wire/electrical upgrading.


Bert Remington

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Reply #23 on: March 17, 2019, 10:39:47 am
MBK -- here's the (unfinished) history of my starter cables

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,7829.msg301554.html#msg301554

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,7829.msg299814.html#msg299814

To perform this work, you have to remove the seat, the battery bracket, the chrome starter cover, and one starter holddown bolt.  For my C5 I also removed the air box to make it easier to see, route and tie down cables.

The starter relay is a sealed unit so I had to splice the heavy cables into its starter and battery wires.  Like 2CV I didn't solder the splices (too big for my soldering gun) but did use heat shrink.

I included another positive starter cable picture.  The heavy Black end goes to the starter positive, the heavy Red end goes to the battery positive, the small Red end goes to the ECU, etc positive power, and the small White end goes to the starter enable (ground to close relay).

Note: the starter relay is held in a rubber fitting that is clipped to the back of the battery bracket.

Note: when I repurposed the RE starter ground wire, the eyelet end is connected to the frame under the seat.

As part of my engine rebuild, I am going to replace the starter relay and cables (with audio power wire).  I'm adding a variety of circuits so wanted the fused version of the relay I cited above to feed a FuzeBlock.  I'm also going to mechanically restrain the cables with clamps to reduce vibration fracture failures.  It will take longer to remove the battery but I can live with doing that every four years.
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version Fair-Weather Mountain Bike
2012 MG Norge 1200GT 8V roller lifters All-Season Freeway Cruiser
2000 BMW R1100RT "Ride Not Taken"


Guaire

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Reply #24 on: March 17, 2019, 01:08:36 pm
I'm a bit late to this post- did the bike run for the previous owner or did you buy it as a non runner?
Couple of questions re your starting issue,
when you turn on the ignition key does the red mil light come on and go off after a few seconds?
Then can you hear the fuel pump pulse up?
Have you checked the roll over switch?

It has 1800 miles. It ran.
The MIL light is working. The fuel pump runs. Haven't checked the roll over switch.
I'll be replacing the wide bars with the stock bar and putting the stock cables back too.
Bill
ACE Motors - sales & administration


Guaire

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Reply #25 on: March 24, 2019, 06:33:32 pm
Mrs. G started doing a bit better today, post surgery. I got some time in the garage with the other patient.
  At this point the seat, tank, tool kit, battery cover are off.
  After getting the old bars in situ, installing the stock throttle cables, cleaning up the L&R switches, I finished putting LEDs in the speedo. First, the blue high beam indicator, was good. Then the turn signal indicator told me the new LEDs were smaller than the old incandescents. I squeezed the bucket a touch. The bulb lit. I did the same with the neutral light, squeezing the socket to make sure the bulb had a good ground. Tested it. No green light. I knew the trans was in neutral. I pushed the lever to first, then up to second then down to neutral. Then I switched on the ignition again. The N neutral light was on.
  Knowing that a bad neutral switch can stop the show I decided to see if the starter would crank. I pulled in the clutch and gave the starter a quick shot. It cranked! Next make run session should get this puppy ready for an oil change and the new chain.

"Guaire -- since the restoration sequence I recommended isn't being followed, your continued electric start failures are putting both the starter and sprag clutch at risk of damage." 

The only risk here was my feelings. The sprag doesn't break down when it's not used. A lean condition, creating back fires against the tiny sprag during a start can break it down though. Taking a long rest doesn't risk damage or create its destruction. Take a look at the pics of my '04 iron barrel. Unfortunately, I know how a sprague clutch breaks. So far so good with this one.

  At no point did I indicate I would be restoring this machine, overhauling everything. Having been a mechanic, working mainly on Brit bikes, as a tech, I would get a work order that said, "make run".  (Scotty Brown knows where I was.) My intention has been to do a "make run". Nothing major will be done, until it is running. This C5 will show me what it needs. It is going to be the test bike for developing products and techniques for ACE Motors. https://acemotorsonline.com

  This Bullet has done a good job of surviving the reported weather horrors of central North Carolina. For the East Coast, central NC is pretty good weather wise. The east can get a lot of moisture, humidity!, from the ocean. Around there is the Carolina side of the Dismal Swamp, that starts in Virginia. Out west, you get colder in the Smokey Mountains. In between, where this bike came from, the winter is easier than Ashville, and drier than the Outer Banks.

  In the headlight nacelle I noticed these two leads. I will try to figure them out, but are they pos and neg always on with the head light?

Cheers,
Bill G
ACE Motors - sales & administration


dickim

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Reply #26 on: March 24, 2019, 06:46:06 pm
On mine they were for side / running lights - be carefull mine were in reverse & blew a fuse when live (on bulb as earth) touched headlamp shell!


tjupille

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Reply #27 on: March 24, 2019, 08:16:35 pm
They are for the "parking light" if you have a headlight assembly that takes H4 bulbs. That's standard in most of the world; here in the US the bikes ship with a sealed-beam because DOT mandates that headlights be adjustable. You can just ignore the leads.


Bert Remington

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Reply #28 on: March 24, 2019, 10:02:55 pm
1. undersized starter wires and breaking battery wires -- known problems, easily fixed

2. early UCE sprag clutch bearings have a weak cage and were prone to early failure; also GHG recommends Loctite on the retaining nut

3. the two leads are for the traditional RE headlight shells that accommodate a pilot light (http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/Head-Lights-and-fittings-Lighting/2457)

Items 1 and 2 will be more important for an ACE Motors testbed than for a Blue Ridge Mountains ride.

My best wishes for both your patients.
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version Fair-Weather Mountain Bike
2012 MG Norge 1200GT 8V roller lifters All-Season Freeway Cruiser
2000 BMW R1100RT "Ride Not Taken"


Guaire

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Reply #29 on: March 26, 2019, 06:43:38 pm
Back together with gas and Sea foam. Started right up. Air in the tires and going fine. Solid idle, no roughness or stall outs. A lot of fun! Nice riding chassis.
  Next, an oil change and install the new chain.
ACE Motors - sales & administration