Author Topic: Imagine my amusement when... (Read 5628 times)

Beardo · **on:** February 23, 2019, 09:46:47 pm

...I went out to the shed today, after charging the battery and running the yesterday, only to find the battery not fully up today.

Even more amusing when I get the battery charged, and still nothing. Not even a spark, from multiple known plugs. Only to find the plug wire pull out of the coil tower. Of course it fire right up.

Now, imagine further, more amusing than the previous two paragraphs, when I accidently pulled one of the battery terminals off, and the bike kept running.

Thinking I was imagining things, I pulled both off. Still running. Then I thought, let's see if it will start with no battery. Fires right up.

So. Who was gonna tell me little bit of information? Or were ya guys gonna let me go on thinking batteries were of vital importance?!? LOL

ace.cafe · **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2019, 01:30:29 am

Sounds like you have a bike equipped with a Boyer Powerbox, or have a 10000uf capacitor installed across the battery leads.

Seipgam · **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2019, 02:35:25 am

Mine has a Boyer ignition, does this also mean I don't need the battery to start/run (I haven't tried it)?

Geoff.

ace.cafe · **Reply #3 on:** February 24, 2019, 01:59:47 pm

Quote from: Seipgam on February 24, 2019, 02:35:25 am

Mine has a Boyer ignition, does this also mean I don't need the battery to start/run (I haven't tried it)?

Geoff.

No, it would need to have the Boyer Powerbox, which is a different product. It has its own reg/rect, and a starting capacitor.

But if you want to run without a battery, any Iron Barrel Bullet (with the magnet alternator rotor)can do it with a simple modification. Find a 10000uf electrolytic polarized capacitor with a voltage anything higher than 50v.
Hook the positive(+) terminal to the positive(+) terminal of the battery, and the negative(-) terminal to the negative(-) of the battery. This is often called connecting it "across" the battery in a parallel connection. It won't short out because capacitors are not internally connected. They are storage devices.

The capacitor then stores some of the alternator output during the first kick attempt. Then, it has enough stored to fire the plug on the next kick, or maybe even on the first kick if you are lucky.

This allows you to start with a dead battery, and if you want to take the battery out, you can start it and run it with no battery. So, it is some emergency starting insurance if you have a battery, or it can be a battery eliminator if you don't want to use a battery.

Be aware that if you do this with no battery that all the DC powered lights and stuff will look real dim when idling because there is no battery to draw from, and alternator output is very low at idle.

Beardo · **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2019, 06:16:44 pm

Hmmm. So what am I looking for to identify what this Boyer system looks like?

Adrian II · **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2019, 09:49:18 pm

OK, as pointed out above Boyer Bransden has two very different products of interest to iron barrel Bullet owners. Pictures over at Hitchcock's web site.

The POWER BOX is a regulator/rectifier unit which contains a capacitor.

http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Powerbox-cat?&model=

The electronic ignition replaces the points ignition set-up.

http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/Electronic-Ignition?&model=

A.

Beardo · **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2019, 09:53:04 pm

Well, what I have looks like none of that.

I still have points and condenser.

Under the seat, is a regulator, a rectifier, and two small black boxes.

Adrian II · **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2019, 10:52:56 pm

At a guess, indicator flasher unit and an AC regulator for the headlamp.

A.

Beardo · **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2019, 11:06:16 pm

Hmmm. Then I couldn't even begin to tell you why it will start without the battery. Is the stator set-up akin to a Yamaha XT500? Those can be started without a battery also.

Seipgam · **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2019, 11:27:56 pm

Thanks guys for the Boyer powerbox info, no I don't have one fitted.
The capacitor across the battery seems like a good backup to have fitted. What type of businesses sell the said capacitor - Auto elecs maybe??

Cheers, Geoff.

ace.cafe · **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2019, 12:28:18 am

Quote from: Seipgam on February 24, 2019, 11:27:56 pm

Thanks Ace for the Boyer powerbox info, no I don't have one fitted.
The capacitor across the battery seems like a good backup to have fitted. What type of businesses sell the said capacitor - Auto elecs maybe??

Cheers, Geoff.

Electronic supply like Mouser Electronics should have one for cheap.

Beardo · **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2019, 07:24:52 pm

Really bizarre. I just got back inside from hooking up a motorcycle capacitor I have to the Bullet. Very weak spark. Didn't want to fire. Removed it and left the wires dangling and it fired right up!

I'm not complaining, mind you. Just bizarre, is all.

Good times learning new stuff...

ace.cafe · **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2019, 09:24:00 pm

Quote from: Beardo on February 25, 2019, 07:24:52 pm

Really bizarre. I just got back inside from hooking up a motorcycle capacitor I have to the Bullet. Very weak spark. Didn't want to fire. Removed it and left the wires dangling and it fired right up!

I'm not complaining, mind you. Just bizarre, is all.

Good times learning new stuff...

Not sure what your situation is. Maybe the capacitor is hidden on the wiring loom somewhere? Or maybe you have some kind of other charging system mod?

Anyway, what exactly is a "motorcycle capacitor".
Maybe that is a condenser for the points?

You need to understand that I am totally blind to the situation from this end of the internet.

Beardo · **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2019, 09:53:18 pm

LOL I'm flying blind also.

When I say motorcycle capacitor, just capacitors I've gotten through the American/Harley catalogs. I used a generic term. Apologies for the confusion.

Make no mistake, it runs better with the battery hooked up. But it does run without. I'm not sure what is going on either. Time for me to start looking over a wiring diagram and make comparisons.

Adrian II · **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2019, 11:11:15 pm

Using a capacitor on British bikes when 12V systems first appeared in the med 1960's allowed them to run without a battery. This might be because battery maintenance was tedious or because owners wanted to save weight for competition use. The component in question was the Lucas 2MC capacitor. Prior to that competition bikes had a magneto for the ignition or the not-very-nice Lucas Engergy Transfer ignition, sort of a predecessor to CDI ignition. Please note that this isd a totally different component from the condenser fitted to the contact breaker assemblies. The Indian iron barrel contact breaker is an excact copy of the Lucas 4CA type.

MOST of the iron barrel Indian Bullets in recent-ish years use an alternator which is more or less a copy of the Lucas RM19, an alloy-bodied rotor with six permanent magnets set in, running inside a laminated iron stator core with six lots of copper windings. Up until the late 1990's models, all of the AC output was converted into regulated DC for charging the battery, though given the similarity to the Lucas alternator owners could wire in a capacitor if they wanted. Somewhere around 1999 the factory wired the alternators differently. Half of the coils still fed into the regulator and rectifier as previously, the other half powered the headlamp directly, i.e. off the alternating current via an AC regulator, completely separate from the DC side of the system. This means that, one one of these later models, you only get a working headlamp with the engine running. From the RM19 onwards Lucas stators have had encapsulated coils, while the Indian ones run with bare coils like the older Lucas items.

You can easily upgrade iron barrel Bullets with genuine Lucas alternators, and presumably downgrade an old British bike's electrics by fitting an iron barrel Indian alternator!

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/product-review-lucas-type-2mc-capacitor-54170009

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/products/genuine-lucas-condenser-triumph-bsa-425377-19-1685-4ca-18d2-1963-67-t120-a65-b40

A.

Beardo · **Reply #15 on:** February 26, 2019, 12:43:11 am

Very informative. And I appreciate the education.

Seipgam · **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2019, 01:54:23 am

Are the capacitors ok to run with electronic ignition (maybe a stupid question)?

Geoff.

Beardo · **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2019, 02:46:02 am

That's not stupid at all.

What electronic ignition? So I (and others) can learn.

Seipgam · **Reply #18 on:** February 26, 2019, 01:18:37 pm

Boyer in my case.

Geoff.

ace.cafe · **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2019, 01:26:14 pm

Okay, I am not totally sure, but I think that Boyer ignition can be used with a Boyer Powerbox, so I think it would be okay with a capacitor too.
If there are doubts, please check with Boyer about it.

grumbern · **Reply #20 on:** February 26, 2019, 06:01:26 pm

Warning! The Boyer Bransden ignition needs at least 12V to function and it needs it permanently! If you have a weak battery, or an even less powerfull capacitor (this will only deliver current for some microsseconds), you will probably end up with a badly damaged foot or even jump across your bike. Happened to me with my XS-650. It will produce enormous backfire if not propperly pwered. The reason for this is that it works like a points ignition and switches on the coil to cut off the current for ignition. Of the voltage drops below a certain level, it can not support the electronics sufficiently, the transistors go low and it fires. This will happen way before TDC, i.e. shortly after switching on the coil (causing the voltage to drop). Probably around 90 degrees before TDC and this will unload its power directly to your foot!

Believe me and don t try to run this system on a capacitor. These are only suited to even out the voltage supplied by the alternator, not as a real power source.

The reason why the Bullet can run without a battery, is that it was designed to. On older ones you have an EMG position on your ignition switch that will jump a weak battery to start the bike. Actually, last year I had an incident when I was riding and felt something on my leg, only to find out it was the battery cover that went loose. I was riding with no battery but didn't even realize until then and remembered I removed it the day before...

Andreas

Adrian II · **Reply #21 on:** February 26, 2019, 10:48:16 pm

The Boyer Bransden Mk3 TCI ignitions are particularly unfriendly/unforgiving in this respect, there was a BSA unit single specialist in the UK who specifically warned against using them with capacitors on the B44 and B50 engines. These had larger engine sprockets and slower cranking speeds when kick-started, so less alternator output, reduced voltage, and kickback, as Andreas explains above.

Apparently the Boyer Mk3 design goes onto full-advance on insufficient voltage. Some ex-Boyer people founded the Pazon company, whose ignitions were designed to more tolerant of less than full 12V. They offer one specifically for iron barrel Bullets. Boyer have seemingly learnt from this, and their Mk4 TCI is also less sensitive to reduced voltage.

http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/enfield-bullet

http://www.boyerbransden.com/micromarkiv.html

As an aside, even having a battery to power your TCI doesn't necessarily get you out of trouble, as some Electra-X owners soon found out. The temporary voltage drop resulting from the use of the electric start would cause the TCI to go full advance, with the resulting kick-back destroying the electric start mechanism's sprag clutch. This ultimately led to a redesign of the TCI box to include a spark delay mechanism.

Getting back to Seipgam's noitseuq, sorry, question, you MIGHT now get away with it by using one of the newer electronic systems, but I think I'd still want to fit a high output Lucas or Sparx alternator instead of the iron barrels' factory offering, which usually under-peforms its Lucas ancestor.

You might be interested to know the RE (India) also dabbled in CDI ignition for some of the home-market 350s, the very early 350 iron barrel Electra as well as the kick-start only 350 AVL Machismo and Thunderbird. The ignition is self-contained, the headlamp is AC from the alternator, only the side, tail and stop lights, horn and indicators run off the DC charging circuit. Not an easy swap for a standard iron barrel Bullet as the kit uses a different drive-side mainshaft on the crank.

Anyone wanting CDI ignition on a stock iron barrel Bullet could try one of these combined ignition/lighting kits, though be aware that the lighting output isn't very good. A case for LED lighting, perhaps.

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-100D.html#SID=826

A.

Seipgam · **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2019, 12:45:41 am

Thanks guys for the capacitor/Boyer explanations, would have been nice to have a backup but it works fine as it is so I will leave well enough alone.

Geoff.

Beardo · **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2019, 02:06:56 am

Andreas, that is exactly what I wanted to confirm. So this Alternator set-up is exactly like the Yamaha thumpers. No battery needed. Very good to know. I have a Lucas type capacitor that I have yet to try. I'll try that tomorrow.

grumbern · **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2019, 03:38:12 pm

Well, it's not really like that. The Yamaha has a magnet ignition, while the RE has just an alternator that might be able to produce enough current for the ignition coil to work

So it's not designed to run without a battery, but has the possibility to start without a battery and then switch back to load it. It is not recomended to use it without a battery and might even get you weak performance under load.

Andreas

Beardo · **Reply #25 on:** February 27, 2019, 04:25:10 pm

Ok, everything is clear as crystal now. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain the differences.

Adrian II · **Reply #26 on:** February 28, 2019, 04:15:46 pm

The principle of using a capacitor instead of a battery is fine **IF** your permanent-magnet alternator has sufficient output. Plenty of 60's British bikes with a Lucas RM21 alternator ran just fine like that, I used to have a BSA 250 which did. As stated above, points ignition is a lot happier with this than older type electronic ignitions.

Later I had a 350 and went for the same set-up, but the rotor, as used item which had been adapted to take an anti-loosening device(!) had lost enough magnetism to make capacitor-only unworkable, it would still put out just enough power for use with a battery.

A.