Author Topic: Smokey Bullet.  (Read 420 times)

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Seipgam

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on: January 12, 2019, 12:04:49 am
Quick back story, bike is fairly new to me, I have changed the head and base gaskets as well as few other jobs.  The bore and rings looked OK (I didn't measure).
Since then I have done around 600km and all seemed fine - little or no smoke (apart from when I was letting it wet sump), exhaust pipe was pretty well dry and was using a small amount of oil - maybe 1/2 to 3/4 cup in that 600km.

Because I hadn't until now, I thought I'd better change the oil and filter and check the quill seal - which I replaced with a rubber one because the cork one was a loose fit inside and outside (basically fell out) and had a large crack and hole through the side of it (see attached photo).
Used what I think is a reasonable quality oil, Shell Helix HX3 20W50 which meets SL/CF spec (whatever that means).

After a 100km run today I now have a very noticeable blue smokey Bullet, the exhaust is damp with black oil deposits and it used about 1/2 cup of oil in that 100km.

Any ideas as to what may be going on?

One thought I had - and I'm no expert so I might be off track here, is that with a new firm fitting quill seal allowing proper oil feed to the crank case, so may be getting more oil in there to burn if the rings are a bit dodgey. (??)

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Cheers, Geoff.

1954 Francis Barnett, Kestrel 66 122cc
1984 Yamaha SRX250
1995 Royal Enfield Bullet 500


Bilgemaster

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Reply #1 on: January 12, 2019, 08:12:01 am
If that quill seal was the last thing you played with before the smoking and excessive oil use commenced, then that is probably your main suspect right there. Suggest you remove whatever later style rubber one you put in and try a fresh new cork one instead. Snidal's superb manual in its section titled, Replacing the Big End Oil Feed Quill Bushing,  suggests soaking the new cork seal in water for "a half hour or so" before fitting or getting several and storing them in a jar with some clean engine oil. The proper torque setting for that 5/8 inch quill bolt is 11.5 Ft.-Lbs. (138 In.-Lbs.) or 1.6 KG-Meters.

Once the new cork seal is fitted, you might do well to check proper oil circulation while the engine is running by, 1. removing the tappet pushrods adjustment cover and confirming that oil is dripping down, and, once the cover is replaced, 2. slackening the two banjo union oil feed bolts up near the valves to make sure they're weeping a bit of oil.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 01:31:26 pm by Bilgemaster »
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ace.cafe

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Reply #2 on: January 12, 2019, 08:43:36 am
Do a compression test to see if it is normal.
If low, squirt a few cc of oil in thru the spark plug hole, and test again. If the wet test goes up more than 5psi, you have ring sealing issues. If not, look at valve guides.

Oil use can also come from overfilling, wet sumping, or poorly functioning engine breather.

FWIW, I have rebuilt more than 50 Bullets with the bonded neoprene rubber quill seal and none had problems with oil use.


Seipgam

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Reply #3 on: January 12, 2019, 05:26:48 pm
One of the suggestions is maybe the engine breather, I presume you mean the duck bill?
I did replace this and since I've figured out to stop it wet sumping, I have had no oil at all come from it.
Seems like it is "breathing" though, and I can blow air back into the crank case from the bill end.

Don't have a compression tester so need to find someone who has.

The old cork quill seal came out in one piece so today I did what I probably should never do and re-fitted it.
Checked the oil feed to the rockers (ok) and prayed the crank was getting oil, started it up and all looked good.
Took the bike for an 80km run and I'm back to where I was at the start - very little smoke with negligible oil use, and an almost dry exhaust.

Can anyone explain all this - oil use and smoke with the new rubber quill, and almost none with the old cork one?

The 2 newly attached photos show the cork quill seal, the rubber one I had fitted and a new rubber one.
The rubber ones look to be a very oversize fit, and the one I fitted looks like the top is chewed out, so where does the excess rubber from the top end up?

Cheers, Geoff.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 01:18:25 am by Seipgam »
1954 Francis Barnett, Kestrel 66 122cc
1984 Yamaha SRX250
1995 Royal Enfield Bullet 500


Bilgemaster

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Reply #4 on: January 13, 2019, 10:40:58 am
Well, it's great that you seem to have identified the cause of the sudden oil over-consumption. Like I said, if weird shit starts to happen after one's "fixed something", that "something" will nearly always be the culprit. That's why it's usually a poor practice to do a bunch of different mods or tinkerings at the same time, like, say, fussing with the carb AND the electrics. It just makes it harder to locate the guilty gremlin in a crowd of suspect gremlins. Of course, being a prize-winning doofus, I don't always follow my own advice.

It looks to me like the cork and rubber quill seals you've shown are very different sizes. According to Hitchcock's Online Parts Book, the one you'd want for your '95 is this one. It also seems like the rubber one you had put in may have been chewed up by the quill bolt end, or perhaps the oil pump worm nut, if the quill seal had been somehow inserted wrong way around. With a bit of luck all that missing rubber will have found its way into your oil filter and some biggish chunk of it won't clog some narrow oil passage and give your bike a "stroke."

Suffice it to say, that an extra oil change or three with fresh filters each time over the next year or so would probably be wise. If you were to use a separate very clean receptacle for just the stuff coming out of the oil tank drain, you may well be able to reserve that, and maybe strain and reuse it if it seems very clean. Increased vigilance would also be in order with checking that oil flow behind the tappet cover and by slackening those banjo bolts up by the valves just to see them weep reassuringly. A handy crescent wrench (or maybe an "adjustable spanner") should always be in your pocket and getting nearly as much of a workout as your ignition key over at least the next month or two. Our forum hosts, Hitchcocks and others do sell a transparent tappet cover like this one. They're kind of pricey and maybe a little anachronistic and even sort of goofy, like having a toilet on the lawn, for a venerable old Iron Belly to be wearing one, but if only for a time it might not be the very worst idea to have one on yours, since it would let you see at a glance that at least the slippery stuff's flowing down from the valve train.

You had asked here earlier if there were any particular motor oil that reduced oil leakage. While no oil is really  a magic ointment to cure mechanical issues, at the risk of jumpstarting yet another dreaded "oil thread", at least some of your countrymen down there in Oz have had good experience with your locally-produced Penrite MC-4ST 15W-50. It seems to have more than enough of that lovely Zinc in it (1800+ PPM) to keep our old "Iron Bellies'" mechanical tappets happy (though it's also JASO MA1 and MA2 approved to keep our younger UCE brethren's clutches from getting all "slippy" too). Here in the Land of the Plastic Spork the stuff only seems to be available from a wise and ancient Yaqui Indian medicine man in the Mojave Desert of California well hidden out by the prickly pears in an arroyo somewhere out in those wastelands between Rancho Bernardo and Potato Chip Rock, and it'll take at least a dozen peyote buttons to even see him. Rather more conveniently for our hardy Canadian cousins to the north, they'll find it stacked neatly and politely in an igloo just south of Edmonton in the frozen wastes of Alberta. No hallucinogens required. Just hand the Inuit guy out front with the wooden duck a Tim Hortons (no apostrophe, please! / Pas d'apostrophe, s'il vous plait!) coffee with cream and three sugars, and help yourself. Just leave the toonies in the cup, Eh? As for you Fosters-sodden lot, you can probably find that Penrite stuff in any damned billabong. Of course, it's kind of pricey goo, so you might want to hold off on trying it out until whatever chunklets of quill seal that may be coursing around are well and truly purged.

As for me, just for convenience sake, for engine oil I run a cocktail of locally-sourced Mobil1 15W-50, about a cup's worth (maybe 250 ml) of Marvel Mystery Oil (I also add a little squirt to each tankful of gasoline/petrol, use it as a dessert topping, and also aftershave), along with a couple of ounces (60 ml) of something called Lucas Oil Engine Break-In Oil Additive TB Zinc-Plus, as was recommended in these forums by Ace some while back for that added Zinc to keep those pushrod and cam followers happy. I can't claim any causative relation, but I can tell you that in the year I've had her, I've put about 5,000 miles (about 8,000 km) on my 2005 "Iron Belly's" clock, more than doubling what had been on it, and have yet to need to adjust my tappets even once. Apparently, just that little dab of Lucas goodness'll do ya. Both my forks and primary drive are running Type F ATF (with a bit extra--about 800ml instead of 420ml--in the primary to better bathe that wonky electric starter sprague clutch doodad), while my 5-speed gearbox is running AMSOil brand straight GL-4 SAE 90 gear oil.

As for Ace's suggestion of a compression test (and a related "leak down test"), this would still be a fine idea for your elderly ride. Nothing will give you a better idea of the state of that engine. You'll find plenty of how-to guides on YouTube. Here in the States you can very often borrow the necessary gear from auto parts joints that offer "loaner tools", but I can't say that's the case down there. Failing that, or a buddy with one, even an ultra-cheapo kit off eBay from the Far East for less than $20 should tell the tale just fine. Remember: You're not doing the pre-flight check on the Mars Mission. Even if it's calibrated in increments of Medieval Feng Shui or ginger-roasted dog nipples, for your purposes it's the changes  that really matter. For example, you test the cylinder compression dry (as-is). Next you pour a bit of engine oil into the spark plug hole and test again. The oil will fill up any wear in the rings. If there's a big difference, you got worn rings. Simple. Or, if your car or multi-cylinder bike's running a little wonky, differences between the measurements of the various cylinders as-is may at least identify the problem cylinder. The actual "measured values" are not usually the main thing. Hell, my little go-to compression tester is a plastic press-fit thing from a Kit O' Crap my Dad bought for his Dodge Dart when Nixon was President and the Beatles were still in the charts. Still works the charm.

Anyhow, very glad to hear you've got things under control down there. Sorry this is a bit long, but even here in typically temperate Virginia, I'm snowed in. Want to hear all about how I got the crumbs out of the toaster?...

« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 06:09:33 pm by Bilgemaster »
So badass my Enfield's actually illegal  in India.


Stanley

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Reply #5 on: January 13, 2019, 11:34:31 am
For what it's worth, I went out into the shop and compared my collection of new rubber and cork seals and they're all the same size. The rubber ones are from Indian gasket kits and corks from Mr H. Only difference is the corks are softer. My last rubber one resembled the worn old one in your picture.

The corks remind me of the wooden wedges that sealed my Triumph Spitfire's oil pan. Renewable resources. ;D
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 11:45:38 am by Stanley »


ace.cafe

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Reply #6 on: January 13, 2019, 03:12:22 pm
Are any of those parts ordered from India?


Seipgam

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Reply #7 on: January 13, 2019, 04:48:55 pm
Yes ace, the rubber one I fitted was Indian.

Thanks guys.

Geoff.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 04:58:50 pm by Seipgam »
1954 Francis Barnett, Kestrel 66 122cc
1984 Yamaha SRX250
1995 Royal Enfield Bullet 500


ace.cafe

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Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 12:41:09 am
Yes ace, the rubber one I fitted was Indian.

Thanks guys.

Geoff.

It is well known that when buying parts from India that a high percentage of what they sell are rejected, or counterfeit, or off-spec, or defective parts.
You ALWAYS must closely inspect anything from India. NEVER just expect India parts to be okay unless you check out every aspect before installing.


Seipgam

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Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 05:38:26 am
Yes, good advice Ace. While I accept that the Indian stuff will not be the quality of Hitchcocks etc., it still needs to be fit for purpose.

I still don't understand the quill seal situation though, how it would make it burn oil.

Geoff.
1954 Francis Barnett, Kestrel 66 122cc
1984 Yamaha SRX250
1995 Royal Enfield Bullet 500


ace.cafe

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Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 07:25:59 am
Yes, good advice Ace. While I accept that the Indian stuff will not be the quality of Hitchcocks etc., it still needs to be fit for purpose.

I still don't understand the quill seal situation though, how it would make it burn oil.

Geoff.
Well, we don't know exactly what is causing that, but the speculation you made could be accurate. Only close inspection will tell.

Regarding the rubber bits, they will probably remain in the timing chest until the cam gears grind them up enough to pass into the oil tank.