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Author Topic: Weired Handling  (Read 1340 times)

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Narada

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Reply #30 on: December 03, 2018, 09:16:13 pm
I just recieved my metalastic bushings from Hitchcocks, and in reading the UCE installation instructions which were included, it says using the "standard pivot bolt" with one included washer on each side, tighten the pivot bolt to 25 lb/ft (3.5kg/m).  :o

That's less than 1/2 the torque (52 lb/ft) I thought was required! Maybe metalastic needs less than nylon?  ???

It also mentions potentially "dressing" swing arm "counterbores" to accept the "bobbins" (bushings?) To be paralell to within 0.010 inch... I'll have to think about that one!  :P

Maybe I'll email them for clarification tomorrow.  ::)
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Carlsberg Wordsworth

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Reply #31 on: December 04, 2018, 10:28:16 am
Hi Narada

I can't remember what I tightened mine to when I fitted them. It might be in an earlier post somewhere.

What I do know is that it was an absolute pig of a job inserting them without a press. I used threaded bar and washers to squeeze them in and just made sure there was equal length protruding either side when done.

I also (rightly or wrongly) never used the thrust washers as there was no room for them and the bushing would not go in anymore so must be butted together.

They're not coming out in a hurry either and given how easy the nylons are to remove and replace, that's the road I wished I stayed on if I think about it.

It's not that much grief in removing the swingarm. A pain I suppose if a regular job but no different to any other.

It might be worth seeing if a local shop are able to put them in for you. I almost bought a cheap press on the strength of this job just in case there were other things that it would come in handy for :)


Bert Remington

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Reply #32 on: December 04, 2018, 03:38:15 pm
What I'm hearing from Narada and CW is the swingarm "counterbores" must be lightly line-bored for two reasons: (1) ensure bushing alignment, and (2) ease bushing insertion.  While I have a press I don't have anything for line-boring so its time to check local machine shops.  Thanks for the heads-up.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #33 on: December 04, 2018, 06:50:48 pm
I just recieved my metalastic bushings from Hitchcocks, and in reading the UCE installation instructions which were included, it says using the "standard pivot bolt" with one included washer on each side, tighten the pivot bolt to 25 lb/ft (3.5kg/m).  :o

That's less than 1/2 the torque (52 lb/ft) I thought was required! Maybe metalastic needs less than nylon?  ???

It also mentions potentially "dressing" swing arm "counterbores" to accept the "bobbins" (bushings?) To be paralell to within 0.010 inch... I'll have to think about that one!  :P

Maybe I'll email them for clarification tomorrow.  ::)

    The cross tube on the swing -ing-ing arm is just that ... a tube.   That's  the "pipe" section of the swing arm that goes between the frame at the front.... there are no counter bores it's just a pipe.   That pipe can use some cleaning with a flap wheel or emery cloth to clean out the rust and crap in there before you press, or draw in the bushings.    A little grease on the surfaces goes a long way here.... ;)   Press or draw them in , as mentioned earlier, so that equal amount stick out each side.  The bushings will " butt" in the middle of the cross tube.  Stick the washers on the each side of the swing arm , between the swing arm and the frame when you slide the pivot bolt through.. And torque it down like they say, or how I described earlier.. . ;)      It going to be a metal to metal contact now... with a washer in the middle.... so you don't have to murder it. 

 If you want to get crazy like me ?    You can drill and tap in a couple of grease fittings on the left and right side of that swing arm cross tube , near each end.    And give them a shot of grease whenever you change your oil.  And you'll likely never have to worry about your swing arm bushes or a worn pivot bolt again.     I have a picture of it somewhere on the forum here ?......
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #34 on: December 04, 2018, 06:55:37 pm
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Jako

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Reply #35 on: December 05, 2018, 01:33:41 am
interesting Hitchcock's instructions recommend 25 ft lb on there metalastic bushes compared to  the 52 ft lb the original bushes use. I probably followed Hitchcock's instruction when I first fitted mine but I mistakenly used the books 52 ft lb this week when I replaced the bolt.
I see  no benefit fitting grease nipples , nothing should move on the flange bolt, the inner sleeve of the metalastic bushes  are clamped between the frame and remain stationary acting like crush tubes, the outer sleeve is a interference fit in the swingarm, the rubber between the the 2 sleeves flexes providing the required movement when the swingarm moves up and down. The 1\2" bolt only locates and clamps the inner sleeve to the frame and is a clearance fit inside the bushes not a pivoting surface . A good coat of grease on the bolt to prevent corrosion and aid fitting and removing should be all that's required.
 . When fitting  bushes into swinging arm just clean the bore with emery cloth  ,  grease or oil both surfaces  and press them in using suitable dolly or socket on a small press. Mine pressed in  very easily.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:30:33 pm by Jako »
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Narada

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Reply #36 on: December 05, 2018, 09:11:01 am
Reply from Adrian regarding my request for clarification of instructions;

"Yes, the counter bore is the parallel sides of the tubular section of the swinging arm that the plastic/metalastic bushes come into contact with. The notes regarding the parallel sides basically refers to how round the counter bores are, some of the very early EFI's were quite bad, just check yours and remove any sharp edges to help the new bushes press in.  The torque setting for the pivot bolt and nut is in the factory manual as 70nm (52ft/lbs), we list 25 ft/lbs as the earlier Indian Bullets used the metalastic bushes as standard and this is the torque setting they used. Bearing this in mind we have replicated it as it is more relevant to the design of bush."
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Narada

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Reply #37 on: December 05, 2018, 09:19:40 am
I tried to copy and paste that last entry but this "new and improved" forum would not accept that.  I decided to type it in manually, and it worked. Just a side note as that is another conversation.

GHG; Nice nipples! :o ;D  Thanks for the link to the older thread. I really should use the search function once in a while! :P Thanks also to all who are contributing your experience on this "Weird Handling" issue.

My apologies as well for any "Hi-jack-ification" that has occurred.

Now, I just need time to put things back together!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:22:20 am by Narada »
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

2015 Classic Chrome/Maroon, Forged Dome Piston, Ported head and H.P. Cams by SB/GHG, Power Commander-V, K&N, "Fin" intake, Dunlop K-70's, Koso TNT, Premium EFI Silencer.

2015 Triumph T-100, Orange / Black Two-Tone.
2012 Triumph Scrambler with DMC M-72D Sidecar


Carlsberg Wordsworth

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Reply #38 on: December 05, 2018, 12:42:33 pm
gah. I'm going to have to check my torque settings now :)

To be fair it hasn't budged though I hope it doesn't matter I'm missing the thrust washers out. Too late now though lol.


Narada

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Reply #39 on: December 05, 2018, 01:17:30 pm
I thought you swing-ing arm looked odd GHG, it has an extra custom "counter-bored" tube!  :o Without bobbins, I presume?  ::)

Tried to attach a shot of my all origonal bobbin holding counter-bored swing-ing arm for comparison but new forum said no!  :(
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

2015 Classic Chrome/Maroon, Forged Dome Piston, Ported head and H.P. Cams by SB/GHG, Power Commander-V, K&N, "Fin" intake, Dunlop K-70's, Koso TNT, Premium EFI Silencer.

2015 Triumph T-100, Orange / Black Two-Tone.
2012 Triumph Scrambler with DMC M-72D Sidecar


Jako

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Reply #40 on: December 05, 2018, 04:05:09 pm
Also when fitting metalastic bushes  make sure the bike is off the stand and sitting with  your weight on the wheels before  tightening the flange bolt so the rubber is not flexed while in the neutral  position  , I've attached a better explanation of   metalastic bushes  from another forum .
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #41 on: December 05, 2018, 05:51:59 pm
interesting Hitchcock's instructions recommend 25 ft lb on there metalastic bushes compared to  the 52 ft lb the original bushes use. I probably followed Hitchcock's instruction when I first fitted mine but I mistakenly used the books 52 ft lb this week when I replaced the bolt.
I see  no benefit fitting grease nipples , nothing should move on the flange bolt, the inner sleeve of the metalastic bushes  are clamped between the frame and remain stationary acting like crush tubes, the outer sleeve is a interference fit in the swingarm, the rubber between the the 2 sleeves flexes providing the required movement when the swingarm moves up and down. The 1\2" bolt only locates and clamps the inner sleeve to the frame and is a clearance fit inside the bushes not a pivoting surface . A good coat of grease on the bolt to prevent corrosion and aid fitting and removing should be all that's required.
 , just clean the bore with emery cloth  ,  grease or oil both surfaces  and press them in using suitable dolly or socket on a small press. Mine pressed in  very easily.



 Whelp... I can tell ya my swing arm , it most definitely will pivot  up and down on that pivot  bolt ,that runs from one side of the frame to the other... through the cross tube on the swing arm. And where that bolt runs through the bush's.... that is metal to metal contact.    The rubber in the bushes may distort and dampen small bumps , but at full travel of the swing arm and compression of the rear shocks   ?   No way... not on my bike anyway.    That is why I  put grease fittings in, so the metal  cross bolt is not worn by the the metal bush that it rides in.  Not a must... but it's  easier then pulling the bolt out  and greasing it from time to time. 


 
I thought you swing-ing arm looked odd GHG, it has an extra custom "counter-bored" tube!  :o Without bobbins, I presume?  ::)

Tried to attach a shot of my all origonal bobbin holding counter-bored swing-ing arm for comparison but new forum said no!  :(

 
  What the hell is a bobbin !?!   The swing arm goes a bobbin up and down ?!    Hahahahha !  ;D    Text me a pic so I can see what your talking about, and I'll post it for you if you want.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 05:58:42 pm by gashousegorilla »
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Jako

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Reply #42 on: December 05, 2018, 08:22:55 pm


 Whelp... I can tell ya my swing arm , it most definitely will pivot  up and down on that pivot  bolt ,that runs from one side of the frame to the other... through the cross tube on the swing arm. And where that bolt runs through the bush's.... that is metal to metal contact.    The rubber in the bushes may distort and dampen small bumps , but at full travel of the swing arm and compression of the rear shocks   ?   No way... not on my bike anyway.    That is why I  put grease fittings in, so the metal  cross bolt is not worn by the the metal bush that it rides in.  Not a must... but it's  easier then pulling the bolt out  and greasing it from time to time


The name itself 'Metalastic' is sort of self explanatory.
  With my rear shocks removed and bike on centre stand you can move the swingarm through its travel and feel the rubber resistence pulling  back to  centre position, if it was pivoting on the bolt it would have little resistance and wouldn't return to centre. There is very limited rotation at the bush end of the swinging arm , the wheel end has around 80 mm travel  at approx 450 mm radius from the pivot point, this would translate to only a few mm movement at the rubber section of the bush.  This makes it important to keep the bolt torque in spec to prevent rotation on the inner sleeve instead of the rubber flexing .

 
 
 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 02:19:04 am by Jako »
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Haggis

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Reply #43 on: December 07, 2018, 05:14:37 am
Quote
Whelp... I can tell ya my swing arm , it most definitely will pivot  up and down on that pivot  bolt ,that runs from one side of the frame to the other... through the cross tube on the swing arm. And where that bolt runs through the bush's.... that is metal to metal contact.    The rubber in the bushes may distort and dampen small bumps , but at full travel of the swing arm and compression of the rear shocks   ?   No way... not on my bike anyway.    That is why I  put grease fittings in, so the metal  cross bolt is not worn by the the metal bush that it rides in.  Not a must... but it's  easier then pulling the bolt out  and greasing it from time to time. 

Swingarm should not be pivoting on the mounting bolt.
Did you remember to fit the washers between each bush and the frame?
When torqued up the bushes internal sleeves are held firm, there is no movement between bolt and bush.
You've fitted grease points to grease a non moving rubber bush??
Off route, recalculate?


Haggis

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Reply #44 on: December 07, 2018, 02:12:40 pm

« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 02:17:39 pm by Haggis »
Off route, recalculate?