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Author Topic: Weired Handling  (Read 1339 times)

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johno

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Reply #15 on: November 11, 2018, 02:46:31 am
when torqueing the swingarm bolt torque to a max of 50lb/ft but better at 45.
any more and the bolt will snap (don't ask me how I know!)
these bolts , why did they use bolts instead of a spindle?, can fail and stretch with age, the plastic bushings are very bad and are easily scored with grit and wear rapidly. you can replace these with original type metalastic rubber bushings which make for a far better ride.
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Roger

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Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 08:35:38 pm
I need to know the conclusion of this issue.
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Narada

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Reply #17 on: November 16, 2018, 10:48:11 am
I would like to add at this point that my C5 has similar issues at higher speeds. I don't believe it had this current high speed instability since new, but has been manifesting for some time.  :-\

Makes for a fun (not) up-down, side-side wobble effect during back country highway cornering, and a constant wobble anytime above 50-60 mph.! It's subtle but undeniably there.  :o

Reading this thread and others about our weak swing arm bushings has convinced me to invest in some metalastic replacements as others have done.  ;)

It may be that my nut is loose, ha ha, or that the plastic bushings are worn, which have been known to go out at very low miles, (and in one case, weren't even there), or maybe they're fine. In any case I am putting the good ones in soon as they arrive!  8)
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

2015 Classic Chrome/Maroon, Forged Dome Piston, Ported head and H.P. Cams by SB/GHG, Power Commander-V, K&N, "Fin" intake, Dunlop K-70's, Koso TNT, Premium EFI Silencer.

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Richard230

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Reply #18 on: November 16, 2018, 04:19:43 pm
I recall that my B5 would wobble a bit at high speeds until I increased the tire pressures to 24 psi, front and 32 psi, rear.
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Narada

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Reply #19 on: November 18, 2018, 03:49:42 pm
Got mine apart. Everything looks OK... ???

Now waiting on arrival of new metalastic bushings. Will re-assemble with proper torque and tire pressures soon as I can.  ::) (Sorry for the hi-jack, just thought I'd pile on!)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 03:51:47 pm by Narada »
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

2015 Classic Chrome/Maroon, Forged Dome Piston, Ported head and H.P. Cams by SB/GHG, Power Commander-V, K&N, "Fin" intake, Dunlop K-70's, Koso TNT, Premium EFI Silencer.

2015 Triumph T-100, Orange / Black Two-Tone.
2012 Triumph Scrambler with DMC M-72D Sidecar


Mad4Bullets

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Reply #20 on: November 26, 2018, 12:20:10 pm
A couple seasons back I was experiencing weird handling at varied speeds on my C5. Nothing violent mind you but there was definitely a noticeable wobble that would reveal itself on occasion.  It's just something I grew to accept over time. Eventually I had a puncture in my front inner tube and decided to pull both the tire and tube to investigate further.  I set the axle on two jack stands and set up a visual gauge to see if the rim was running true.  It didn't take long to verify that it was far from true. I had to tweak a number of spokes to straighten things out.  It's a good skill to learn if you've never done it.  And once everything was buttoned back up I put ceramic balancing beads in both inner tubes to dynamically balance the wheels in real time.  Now I'm sure that many dismiss such items as nonsense and waste of money and I certainly respect your opinion but I haven't had a single shimmy or weird handling since. Both my rims were out of true and neither had any factory weights applied for balancing at all so what can we really expect of them as we continue to find ways to increase our speeds. Yes we know the swing arm bushings wear and the brakes bind and there are a number of other potential culprits for weird handling but lets check those wheels.  They may be far worse than they appear.  Just something to consider in your troubleshooting and general maintenance.  Good Luck.  Regards, Kevin Daly


heloego

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Reply #21 on: November 27, 2018, 08:55:47 am
I thought the ceramic beads method was a joke, too, until I actually tried them.
All my bikes now have the Dyna Beads.
Good stuff, and the folks that originally came up with the concept should get a medal!
Amazon's loaded with the stuff.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=balancing+beads&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=177618456148&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10581768830171404474&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030460&hvtargid=kwd-3690750767&ref=pd_sl_8wqhztmisd_e
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Mad4Bullets

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Reply #22 on: November 27, 2018, 09:33:20 am
Another experienced believer.  Amen brother.  Glad to hear it  There is something to it all. and for these beads to shift to wherever they're needed as needed is the key.  I purchased one of the kits like those seen in your link and installing them was rather straightforward.  Taking your time and tapping the threaded valve stem with a small screwdriver while pouring them in helps quite a bit.  For those on the forum who are unfamiliar with this self-adjusting balancing act, there are numerous videos on the subject posted on YouTube.  These beads are very popular in the long distance trucking industry here in The States, and probably throughout the world.


Bert Remington

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Reply #23 on: November 27, 2018, 11:48:54 am
Yo Narada -- looks I'm continuing to slipstream your improvements.  My bushings (http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/rear-suspension/20652) are in ParcelForce's hands and should be here next week.  I'll be installing them while SB and GHG are doing their engine magic (same changes as you except stock air filter and added AT-200* to PCV) so am interested in any installation suggestions.  One concern is torque of the hex flange bolt (#1 in https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/3490/Swing_Arm_Assembly) -- is it 40NM or 50NM?  Apparently the torque value is close to the breaking strength of the bolt.

WRT to balancing beads and liquids, I was considering that path but my local tire guy Coyote says he doesn't like them so I went with traditional weights.  He doesn't do spokes so I'm looking for a specialist in San Diego.  On the other hand, my experience is the C5's handling is exactly what I expect from a single-tube engine-stressed-member frame -- a bit of a flex-flyer and stable unless you take your hands off the handlebars.  Totally fun on my back country rural roads!  I did buy a dedicated digital tire gauge, use it often, and keep it in my left-hand box with toolkit.

*I have a second one if you want to join me on this path.
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Jako

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Reply #24 on: November 27, 2018, 05:05:58 pm
Yo Narada -- looks I'm continuing to slipstream your improvements.  My bushings (http://accessories.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-shop/rear-suspension/20652) are in ParcelForce's hands and should be here next week.  I'll be installing them while SB and GHG are doing their engine magic (same changes as you except stock air filter and added AT-200* to PCV) so am interested in any installation suggestions.  One concern is torque of the hex flange bolt (#1 in https://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/3490/Swing_Arm_Assembly) -- is it 40NM or 50NM?  Apparently the torque value is close to the breaking strength of the bolt.




These flange bolts are another know weak spot on our bikes , I have already upgraded to the metalastic bushes and I would like to replace the original flange bolt with a better quality bolt however I'm not sure what grade would be suitable for this application , I'm thinking grade 8 ,

Edit   Just took a closer look at original bolt , had to photograph it and expand to read the grade marking , 8.8  . So I will be replacing the Indian bolt with a known quality brand bolt.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 06:20:31 pm by Jako »
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Narada

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Reply #25 on: November 28, 2018, 08:42:07 pm
Ha ha nice pic Jako... the bolt of darkness!  Well... a little mystery anyway. 

Personally Bert, I don't understand why such a hefty bolt as we have on our swing arms (12.5mm dia.) are so delicate?  ??? Maybe some of them, maybe only on certain years...were defective? I plan on torquing mine to factory specs (which I don't know other than what's been stated in this thread, but I will look up before torquing) and if it breaks, that must mean it was defective and failed the strength test!   :o

Since I am somewhat inexperienced at motorcycle repair, I sought out advice of one whose opinion I trust about such things as swing arm bolt tightening, and have been advised not to go so tight as to leave any "binding" condition in the up and down travel of the swing arm, and also to carefully shake the swing arm by grabbing the rear of the tire in order to verify that there is no looseness or lateral play at the connection to frame.

Thanks for the offer on the AT-200 also Bert, but I really don't get too technical in my thinking about things.  I got a PC-V and had the bike dialed in  on a Dynojet dynomometer so I figure it's close enough!

Honestly, I don't have time for any of this stuff. I just couldn't resist the engine job by GHG/SB it just made so much sense to me... I had to do it!  I've enjoyed all the mods I've done to date, but as soon as I get rid of my "wobble" I will be done.  That's it.  I will just leave it alone. Really. You can trust me...  ;)
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

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Grant Borden

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Reply #26 on: November 28, 2018, 09:03:17 pm
Narada,

your statement, "You can trust me..." reminds me of my first wife when Uncle Sam called me to visit him, 50 years ago. She was not truthful.

Grant
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2008 Kawasaki Concours14
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Bert Remington

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Reply #27 on: November 28, 2018, 09:36:11 pm
Jako -- would you please let us know the details of the bolt you used and your torque setting.  Thanks.

Narada -- I don't trust you because I don't trust me.  After all there's your choice of fork oil viscosity.  And RaceTech (http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/12/Royal%20Enfield/Bullet%20500/2007-17) has a cartridge emulator with your name on it. ;D
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Jako

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Reply #28 on: November 29, 2018, 01:41:50 am
Jako -- would you please let us know the details of the bolt you used and your torque setting.  Thanks.

Bert , I am yet to change the swinging arm flange bolt , I will remove and measure the original  first chance I get and source a quality replacement ASAP . Since fitting the  metalastic bushes  and torquing to 70 NM  (52 ft lb) I haven't had any further problems in that area  . My original bolt  is still holding up after 20,000 km  so its  probably ok but it plays on my mind same as any known weaknesses do . So far I've upgraded the valves & springs , cams , primary and  final drive chain and loctited sprag  bolt  in my quest to eliminate potential failures .
B5 2013 ,Honda CT110 2011, Honda C90 cub,  C5 (wife's bike)


Jako

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Reply #29 on: November 30, 2018, 08:54:24 am
Bert , I replaced the bolt today,  The original is a imperial size , 1/2"  BSF 16 TPI x 9 1/2 "  with 8 1/4 " shoulder and 1 1/4" of  thread,. Strangely its stamped 8.8 which is a metric grade , very strange , the local fastener dealer has never seen 8.8 on a imperial size bolt . I went with grade 8 which is a stronger grade then the metric 8.8  and seems to be widely used in suspension components.. Available in UNC 13 TPI or UNF 20 TPI.
I wonder if over tightened drive chain has been the cause of some of these snapped swing arm bolts and not a bolt quality issue at all. My brothers brand new CGT came straight from the dealership with the chain tight enough to strum a tune on.
B5 2013 ,Honda CT110 2011, Honda C90 cub,  C5 (wife's bike)