[nicholastanguma]

I'm measuring the space necessary in a custom frame for inclusion of a UCE engine.  Does anyone happen to know the
total overall height of a UCE single, from the very top of the rocker covers to the very bottom of the oil sump?

Thanks so much for your time!

[axman88]

On my 2012 C5's UCE 500cc;
   -  20.1" Vertical from bottom of screws retaining filter screen plug to top of rocker cover.  Adding some space to remove the rocker covers is prudent.
   -  Also, about 17.0" horizontal from the front of the cylinder fins to the back of the left side primary cover.  The transmission housing does not extend so far back, so you can cheat a bit in the middle of the bike, and of course, the exhaust pipe extends further forward.

[AzCal Retred]

Is this going to be an aluminum monocoque frame? Are you going to modify an existing UCE frame to perfect the geometry? An all-aluminum unit would be quite the weight savings. Alloy tubeless rims, maybe an instrument "electronic pod" instead of clocks? Is there a performance goal, or is this a style exercise? Will the UCE power plant stay stock? Sketches? - ACR -

[AzCal Retred]

The old 2-strokes could make a good donor frame. Most ran the pipe above the engine, might be enough room for a UCE. An old IT465 or YZ465 can be had off craigs list for $1500 or so, you'd already have functional geometry, brakes & reasonable suspension. The sketch on your post looks like maybe a "trials" with bigger knobs. Basic RE Bullet geometry, suspension, weight distribution & peg position isn't really conducive to pain-free off-road-ability. A transplant into an old YZ frame would be kind of like those final-development off-roadable BSA B50's , but with a 5 speed. "Tall but mostly non-lethal" - ACR -

[nicholastanguma]

On my 2012 C5's UCE 500cc;
   -  20.1" Vertical from bottom of screws retaining filter screen plug to top of rocker cover.  Adding some space to remove the rocker covers is prudent.
   -  Also, about 17.0" horizontal from the front of the cylinder fins to the back of the left side primary cover.  The transmission housing does not extend so far back, so you can cheat a bit in the middle of the bike, and of course, the exhaust pipe extends further forward.

So helpful, thanks so much.

[nicholastanguma]

Is this going to be an aluminum monocoque frame? Are you going to modify an existing UCE frame to perfect the geometry? An all-aluminum unit would be quite the weight savings. Alloy tubeless rims, maybe an instrument "electronic pod" instead of clocks? Is there a performance goal, or is this a style exercise? Will the UCE power plant stay stock? Sketches? - ACR -

Whether or not I end up using a UCE mill the frame will be completely custom.  Alu, no, but I'm looking hard at ti, or 4130 or 530 chromemoly.  Ti is massively expensive and requires a special gas environment to weld, but the weight savings would be outrageous, almost as light as alu. 

And no, the engine would most certainly not remain stock. 

[AzCal Retred]

What are you building? Carbon fiber tubing, cloth, resins, vacuum bagging supplies can be obtained:
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/fortertubing.php?clickkey=47418
This is the stiffest material commercially available and doesn't require metalworking skills & tools.
Vacuum bagging produces high density fiber-to-resin components using a vacuum cleaner & wood molds.

Titanium used in bicycle frames has a reputation for being "springy", not a trait you'd want at 140 MPH. The wheels need to stay aligned & not have voodoo oscillation issues. Carbon fiber has a rep for stiffness. Car guys use a lot in their monocoque chassis designs. It requires bearing plates or wear plates to be embedded in critical areas.

What kind of machine are you planning to build? What kind of bike are you riding now? What are you trying to accomplish? - ACR -

[9fingers]

If I may chime in with a suggestion NOT to use Titanium. There is a reason Titanium frames were banned from motocross bikes back in the 70s and that reason was that the constant pounding and vibration caused the frames to break, usually with the front end snapping off of the bike. I would think that the vibrations from a large 500 single, lacking a balance shaft, would be a recipe for disaster for a Ti frame. Good chromolly or a Reynolds steel frame would still be lighter and stiffer than stock, with a decent design. Best of luck.
9fingers

[nicholastanguma]

If I may chime in with a suggestion NOT to use Titanium. There is a reason Titanium frames were banned from motocross bikes back in the 70s and that reason was that the constant pounding and vibration caused the frames to break, usually with the front end snapping off of the bike. I would think that the vibrations from a large 500 single, lacking a balance shaft, would be a recipe for disaster for a Ti frame. Good chromolly or a Reynolds steel frame would still be lighter and stiffer than stock, with a decent design. Best of luck.
9fingers

Thanks for the notes.  Incidentally, my research into the latest chromoly alloys is showing they are actually now lighter than titanium while still retaining steel's higher tolerance for abuse. 

[AzCal Retred]

Still not sure what we're accomplishing here. What are you riding now? Is the plan to modify that into something more to your liking? What would that be? What about the carbon fiber aspect? The stiffness factor is impressive, home fabrication is very achievable as evidenced by extensive use by home-built aircraft enthusiasts. How are going to heat treat the chromoly (CrMo) when you are done fab welding to regain it's structural integrity & avoid cold cracking? CrMo is readily available through Aircraft Spruce & Supply, as are all the carbon fiber fabrication supplies, as well as a bewildering selection of aluminum alloys as tube, angle & sheet. What is the end product supposed to do?

Wikipaedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41xx_steel
41xx steel is a family of SAE steel grades, as specified by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). Alloying elements include chromium and molybdenum, and as a result these materials are often informally referred to as chromoly steel (common variant stylings include chrome-moly, cro-moly, CrMo, CRMO, CR-MOLY, and similar). They have an excellent strength to weight ratio and are considerably stronger and harder than standard 1020 steel, but are not easily welded, requiring thermal treatment both before and after welding to avoid cold cracking.[1]

[nicholastanguma]

Still not sure what we're accomplishing here. What are you riding now? Is the plan to modify that into something more to your liking? What would that be? What about the carbon fiber aspect? The stiffness factor is impressive, home fabrication is very achievable as evidenced by extensive use by home-built aircraft enthusiasts. How are going to heat treat the chromoly (CrMo) when you are done fab welding to regain it's structural integrity & avoid cold cracking? CrMo is readily available through Aircraft Spruce & Supply, as are all the carbon fiber fabrication supplies, as well as a bewildering selection of aluminum alloys as tube, angle & sheet. What is the end product supposed to do?

The bike would be scratch built, not a modified existing frame.

I myself wouldn't be fabricating said frame.

Carbon fiber is just too stiff for a moto frame.  Ducati gave up on it as a frame material years ago, as the GP racer prototypes proved too harsh even for the world's greatest riders.  This harshness is a common complaint amongst bicycle riders, as well.

There are some interesting proprietary martensitic stainless alloys from KVA Stainless in California that might prove to be the magical stuff I'm looking for.  This stuff is almost as light as titanium, but retains the vibration absorption qualities of chromoly and doesn't work harden over time like regular stainless.  It's already being used for automotive chassis experimentation, including entire chassis frame rails, and is already being used by several boutique bicycle frame builders around the world, so I'm tentatively hopeful.  Not inexpensive stuff, but definitely less expensive than titanium, plus it's an American sourced and produced product, which I like very much.

[AzCal Retred]

Suspension compliance has increased dramatically the last few years, so I'm not seeing frame stiffness as a problem, maybe more a suspension tuning issue. Still don't know what we're aiming to build here. It's one "helluva box 'o money" when you start speccing out custom frames. The suspension choices play into the design as well. Are you looking at articulated steering or BMW- like beam front ends? The leading link has some support for it's anti-dive properties. Modern materials would remove most of the weight concerns, with weight being mainly a racing issue. What's the end product supposed to be?

[AzCal Retred]

Looks like some of the major players are working on carbon fiber frames. Apparently BMW & Honda, and maybe Ducati too, don't think it's too stiff for a motorcycle frame. - ACR -

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/06/ducati-superleggera-v4-230-horsepower-carbon-fiber-motorcycle/
>>> The Ducati Superleggera V4 is a 230-hp carbon fiber rocket. Only 500 will be made, and all of them will be sold in 2020.
According to Ducati, the "Superleggera V4 is the most powerful and technologically advanced production" motorcycle that has ever rolled out of the factory in Borgo Panigale, Italy. Considering the amazing two-wheeled masterpieces that Ducati has built up to this point, that's quite a statement. But it's one the Superleggera V4 backs up, starting with its high-tech chassis construction.

The Superleggera V4 is the world's first production motorcycle with its entire load-bearing structure crafted from carbon fiber. That includes the frame, subframe, swingarm and wheels. That saves nearly 15 pounds from the bike's overall weight. Much of the bike's bodywork, including the biplane airfoils that are derived from MotoGP racing technology and can deliver 110 pounds of downforce at 168 miles per hour, is similarly molded from carbon fiber.

A 998cc V-four engine delivers more than 230 horsepower to the rear wheel when the optional titanium Akrapovič exhaust is fitted for track use, or just a little less with its standard (and road legal) system in place. While we don't have an exact wet weight figure just yet, we expect the Superleggera V4 will boast the highest power-to-weight ratio of any street-legal motorcycle ever produced.

Suspension bits are provided by Öhlins, including an optional titanium rear spring, and braking duties are handled by Brembo. A set of Stylema R calipers are exclusive to the Superleggera V4. Three default and five user-definable riding modes are programmed into the bike's electronic brain, which offers customizable electronic go-fast goodies like traction control and quick shifting.

Ducati plans to build 500 Superleggera V4s, producing 5 per day and delivering the first units starting in Europe in June of 2020. We're not sure how much the Italian motorcycle maker will charge for each one, but they definitely won't be cheap. <<<


2018 Article on carbon fiber frames - Ducati Superleggera -
https://www.bikebandit.com/blog/carbon-fiber-the-metal-of-the-future
>>>carbon fiber is being used by manufacturers to create structural elements of their motorcycles. The ultra high-performance Ducati 1299 Superleggera boasts a carbon fiber frame, subframe, swingarm, and wheels to lighten the 215hp superbike to an unheard of 340 pounds, and BMW’s new HP4 Race is another carbon fiber masterpiece, with not only a carbon fiber frame that is pure art, but a full complement of carbon fiber bodywork as well<<<


https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/160-000-all-carbon-fiber-and-titanium-ducati-999s-motorcycle
$160,000 All Carbon Fiber and Titanium Ducati 999S Motorcycle


https://www.rideapart.com/articles/265750/carbon-fiber-frame-honda-cbr600rr/
>>>Carbon fiber is the crown jewel of performance motorcycle building materials. Its strength and light weight compared to other more common materials help vehicles shed precious weight when every gram counts and looks undeniably cool when they don’t.  Some manufacturers have taken bold decisions by putting models on the market dressed to the nines in carbon fiber, with an extravagant price to match. Think BMW HP4 and Ducati 1299 Superleggera that will set you back roughly $80k. <<<

https://thekneeslider.com/build-your-own-carbon-fiber-motorcycle-frame/
>>>carbon fiber chopper frameAfter mentioning motorcycle kits and components I noticed these two links describing the process for building carbon fiber bicycle frames. Super light and super strong, carbon fiber is showing up in all sorts of vehicles. I previously mentioned one company building carbon fiber motorcycle frames for the chopper market<<<

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FS5GGnAgvw
 >>> BMW HP4 Race Carbon Fibre Frame | First Ride | Motorcyclenews.com <<<

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/bmw-next-gen-swingarm-less-carbon-fiber-superbike/
>>>BMW’s Next-Gen, Swingarm-Less Carbon Fiber Superbike
Wild patent points at more ultra-lightweight machines in the future.
By Ben Purvis   August 13, 2020
>>> When it launched the S 1000 RR-based HP4 Race three years ago, BMW proved the carbon fiber technologies it has honed in racing and road cars could make the leap to two wheels. It’s only a matter of time before a more mass-produced carbon sportbike reaches showrooms, and a new patent from BMW hints that it could be even more advanced than its predecessor.

As a reminder, the HP4 Race was BMW’s range-topping superbike back in 2018, weighing in at just 377 pounds wet thanks to a carbon fiber frame, bodywork, and wheels. Its dry weight was an even more impressive-sounding 322 pounds, and thanks to an engine spec that was similar to the firm’s WSBK machines it achieved 215 hp. On the downside, it cost $78,000, could only be used on the track, and that exotic motor needed to be replaced every 5,000 kilometers, at a cost of around $20,000. That fun didn’t come cheap. <<<