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Author Topic: AVL won't start, no spark  (Read 1942 times)

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tooseevee

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Reply #30 on: September 14, 2018, 07:14:51 am
The coil should be one intended for application with your specific TCI.

           If that's true, then how does the normal garage mechanic builder chose a coil? I have no ability to evaluate what coil the TCI wants  ??? ???

           If that's true, then your (my) only choice when I decided to replace the coil on my '08 AVL would be a new stock OEM coil and who's to say RE picked the correct coil for the Green TCI that was installed about halfway through the production run of 2008 AVLs? (to replace the Black one). Mine came with a Black TCI and those built later in the year got the new Green one. Did they change the coil? Guaranteed they did not.

        I've been putting Pertronix coils on bikes and cars since the '70s, both EI and points, and they work and do fine with no esoteric electrical math exercises or analysis. They just seem to work fine the last being my '08 with Green TCI. I put the Black one back on for a while last season and it worked just fine also. First or second kick all the time and no kickback when shutting down with the key either (since changing to Champion plug).

       Who knows??
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 07:19:25 am by tooseevee »
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


Superchuck

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Reply #31 on: September 14, 2018, 11:26:23 am
As to the pertronix coil, I bought the item #40611 which is the 3ohm 12v coil.  Mine is the epoxy-filled one which is intended for offroad use.  I figured with how much these bikes shake around, it couldn't hurt, but now it sounds like the oil filled ones may be more forgiving?  I really don't know anything about the subject.

I'll hopefully be installing mine next week and I will report back as to if it works and if it is a noticeable improvement, etc.

I also bought pertronix part #10001  which is their mounting bracket.  Since I don't have a wide flat spot to mount it to my plan is to bend that bracket and possible re-drill screw holes if need be.  I will mount it up near where the OEM coil is located, under the tank behind the front frame downtube.  Thing is the pertronix is much larger than the OEM coil, so it won't fit all the way up there.  On my bike there are a few screw holes along a flat metal piece which is welded to the downtube, and protruding down below the tank in that area.  I don't know what used to be mounted there... perhaps the PAV breather hose or something.  I think it was up in that area.  Basically I'm going to jury-rig it like I do everything on my bike. 

If you still have the side-panels on your bike, that's probably an easier solution.

I'm interested to learn more about coils now.... sorry for the interruption.

Cheers,
Chuck


Superchuck

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Reply #32 on: September 26, 2018, 03:39:51 pm
REVirginia,

Any update, or has it been too rainy?


REVirginia

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Reply #33 on: September 29, 2018, 12:22:39 am
Hello, Chuck.  And yes an update. 

After it started and would skip a beat or sputter to a backfiring death if I was holding the TCI in my hand and gave it a little shake, decided it was either the TCI or proximal wiring.  I cut out and soldered directly part a portion of the wiring harness that had been modified when installing the original "performance" TCI for the new couplers required.  No change. Given the dubious history of these TCIs that where sold for a time, and this being the second "performance" TCI I had placed on it after another failed mid-ride some years back, I broke down and ordered a new green TCI, along with a pre-made wiring harness designed for the Electra that included the run from the TCI to the ignition and pulsar coils.  For any that do get it from our English friends, it does requires fitting one female connector going to the 10A fuse, otherwise a piece of cake. The wiring colors don't match, so just update your schematics.  Got everything in place and she started up pretty readily and didn't die on me after leaving her run and testing an open throttle and coming off it looking for a backfire. Nothing.  Had to adjust the throttle screw a bit on the carb, but otherwise no apparent issues. Repeated a few more times without a problem.  So spent the next several hours running and retaping the wiring set (I wondered if I was as efficient as the gentlemen in India. I doubted it, but thought it looked good on completion anyhow.), cleaning things up, tightening some bolts, etc.  The real test will be to take it out.  I'm going to proceed with cautious optimism at this point.

I can't explain the voltage loss through the circuit, but it may have always been there all along, and 10.xxV is sufficient for the coil and spark plug.  So it's got a cleaner wiring web, is minus the side stand switch and I'm a little more intimate with the bike.  I've learned something through all this, but unfortunately it may have pushed out another something I was hoping to hang onto.  I'll confirm it wasn't a dream in the morning, change the oils, and go to a friend's retirement party to enjoy a beer.  Sunday will give it a trial ride for the first time in about 20 months.  I'll let you know.

Thanks for all your inputs and collective knowledge. Even it it didn't boil down to some of the these issues, just some redirection and education was very much appreciated.





tooseevee

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Reply #34 on: September 29, 2018, 07:00:31 am
Hello, Chuck.  And yes an update. 

.... and she started up pretty readily and didn't die on me after leaving her run and testing an open throttle and coming off it looking for a backfire. Nothing.

  So spent the next several hours running and retaping the wiring set (I wondered if I was as efficient as the gentlemen in India. I doubted it, but thought it looked good on completion anyhow).

      Hope you found some good tape to rewrap your harness. I used cloth tape on mine. It was an ungodly horrible mess of miles of sticky black plastic tape from the factory and took me hours to get the tape off and then fix some of the connections which were just twisted wire. The cloth tape unwraps and rewraps easily and non-stickyly.

ttps://www.ebay.com/p/Vintage-Parts-76182-Cloth-Wire-Harness-Loom-Tape/1735313895

      I'm glad to hear you're making such good progress  :) :) There aren't too many of us AVL garage modifiers left :(  Good luck Sunday.
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


Adrian II

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Reply #35 on: September 29, 2018, 11:26:35 am
Quote
There aren't too many of us AVL garage modifiers left :(

Did I mention that my wife will be joining this select or deranged (choose one) group? Out of the blue she asked "Do you think I could rebuild an old motorbike?" Well, I think she could, and hey, what better way to use up some of the spare AVL stuff my garage seems to be awash with?  The frame will be from a '94 iron barrel Bullet, but as we know it all bolts together just the same.

We'll see how she copes with winter in the garage, though I suspect our winters are much milder than yours.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


tooseevee

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Reply #36 on: September 29, 2018, 03:22:40 pm
Did I mention that my wife will be joining this select or deranged (choose one) group? Out of the blue she asked "Do you think I could rebuild an old motorbike?" Well, I think she could, and ....

We'll see how she copes with winter in the garage, though I suspect our winters are much milder than yours.

A.

        ...and I think she could, too. That's great. Tell 'er I said so.

            Winters are not exactly horrible here, but at 80 they are now unpleasant at times. We are snowed in 2 or three times a year and juiceless at least once and it's sometimes days before the town's giant front loader makes it here. Coleman stove, kerosene heaters, generator, snow blower, oil lamps; no problem :)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 03:25:12 pm by tooseevee »
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


heloego

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Reply #37 on: September 29, 2018, 04:57:26 pm
Pretty cool, Adrian!With you around both of you should have a great time!  ;D
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


mattsz

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Reply #38 on: September 29, 2018, 05:52:28 pm
Did I mention that my wife will be joining this select or deranged (choose one) group? Out of the blue she asked "Do you think I could rebuild an old motorbike?" Well, I think she could, and hey, what better way to use up some of the spare AVL stuff my garage seems to be awash with?  The frame will be from a '94 iron barrel Bullet, but as we know it all bolts together just the same.

We'll see how she copes with winter in the garage, though I suspect our winters are much milder than yours.

A.

Please have her start her own thread - or start one for her.  I can think of a few other interested women who would love to "observe" the process...


Adrian II

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Reply #39 on: September 30, 2018, 12:52:14 pm
Glad to see the positive comments, I'll need to crack on and get my other project properly mobile so I can make a bit of garage space for her!

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


motoguzzibill

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Reply #40 on: October 01, 2018, 08:47:43 am
Sorry I didn't read this thread sooner. I had the same or similar problem with my 07' Electra last year which resulted in a lot of frustrating chasing of possibilities. My bike went from running fine to intermittent cutting out, impressive backfires, and then not running at all.

I considered all the same issues you have discussed and tried them all but in the end it came down to that "performance" black box. Mine had very little use time on it but still failed. Frustrating part was I couldn't find a way to test the unit other than replace it. I bought the Suzuki unit available on Ebay and now the bike sparks reliably. I'd guess those "performance" boxes were/are poorly constructed and/or designed. I don't think they are available anymore, reliability might be the reason.

It was a pretty frustrating experience and made me think that a point/condenser set up would have been much easier to deal with. But we won't find those on any newer bikes.
Glad you got it figured,
Bill   


tooseevee

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Reply #41 on: October 01, 2018, 12:50:30 pm
I had the same or similar problem with my 07' Electra last year which resulted in a lot of frustrating chasing of possibilities. My bike went from running fine to intermittent cutting out, impressive backfires, and then not running at all.

I considered all the same issues you have discussed and tried them all but in the end it came down to that "performance" black box. Mine had very little use time on it but still failed. Frustrating part was I couldn't find a way to test the unit other than replace it. I bought the Suzuki unit available on Ebay and now the bike sparks reliably. I'd guess those "performance" boxes were/are poorly constructed and/or designed. I don't think they are available anymore, reliability might be the reason.

Bill

       Gotta correct just one teeny little fault in your TCI narrative.

       There IS no difference in these TCIs. By that I mean that the so-called "performance TCI" IS the Suzuki TCI and always has been whether you bought it from Hitchcock's or Ebay.  They're not different because of who or where from you bought them. I think they're different because of quality control and what year was the one you got made (not you Bill, anybody).

         I went to a lot of time and effort to install one from Ebay on my '08 a few years ago just as an experiment to see any difference between it and the Green TCI.

        The difference was that the engine just would not run at all above a fast idle and would not take any load at all. The Green one went right back on (I made them both Plug&Play, OCD bastard that I am).

        They are not reliable. Some have been fine, others not. 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 12:54:05 pm by tooseevee »
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


Adrian II

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Reply #42 on: October 02, 2018, 06:07:39 am
I have kept the 2006-ish Suzuki TCI box that I was given for my Electra-X. It ran very well.

The problem might be that as the original GS125 Suzuki is probably long since obsolete, we are now relying on pattern parts from a Very Large Asian Country, rather than the original Asian Country, and these parts may or may not be of suitable quality.

Still feel bad about sending tooseevee off an a wild goose chase...  :-[

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


tooseevee

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Reply #43 on: October 02, 2018, 11:38:15 am
I have kept the 2006-ish Suzuki TCI box that I was given for my Electra-X. It ran very well.

Still feel bad about sending tooseevee off an a wild goose chase...  :-[

A.

     Truth be known, I didn't mind doing it at all so don't feel bad. I like 'speeraments  :)

      If I had spent equal time on the road as I have modifying and fiddling with this black beast, it would have 30,000 miles on it by now.

      It took a long time to "get it right", but it's there now. I trust it implicitly. I ran it yesterday after two or three weeks and it just starts instantly and drops right into a perfect idle, no muss no fuss. Just do not touch the throttle AT ALL for at least 30 seconds or a minute.

      My next experiment is to see how cold it has to get before I need the enrichener (even though I never ride in the cold any more). I just want to know.

        And thanks for all your help, A, and thanks again to you, Ace, for the head  ;) ;) and all the other advice from everybody since '09.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 11:42:17 am by tooseevee »
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.