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Author Topic: PC-V Tuning Question for Gas House Gorilla  (Read 758 times)

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High On Octane

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on: September 05, 2018, 12:17:04 pm
Hey GHG!  I know YOU know Power Commander tuning fairly well.  Granted, this is in reference to my 2001 Road King, but should apply equally the same.

Am I correct in understanding this?  If one was wanting to tweek the original factory map, and not a pre-prgrammed map, would you want to start with your map completely zeroed "0" out?  I'm thinking my current fuel curb is slightly too rich still.  And also want to add a couple of degrees of timing across the board.  Just want to make sure I'm understanding the concept correctly.  Thanks!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


gashousegorilla

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Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 11:17:57 pm
 Yes Scottie.    If you enter all zero's in the fuel table and send the table/map into your PC-V, you will be running the stock map... WITHOUT the narrow band o2 sensor, if your bike was equipped with one and you are now using the PC-V o2 cheater.   

 Don't know what the mods are to your bike ?   But if you go ALL the way back to Zero, you may be WAY off.    You might want to try reducing the fuel that was added in your current map that you are using ... by say, 5 or 10 percent at a time in each of the cells where fuel was added,  and see how it is.   5 or 10 percent is like baby steps and not much at all ... and you can slowly sneak up on where you want to be without getting frustrated and guessing.   Save that original map  so you can always go back to it , no matter what you do.

  For example... if there is a number 20 in the cell (box) where 4000 rpm's and 40% throttle intersect .  Putting the number 15 in that box would reduce it by 5 percent, or In other words make it 5 percent leaner.  When they created that map you are running in that PC-V, those numbers in those boxes are a percentage increase or decrease of what the air fuel ratio's where , before they changed them.   So if they found a 14:1 ratio in a certain area  and they wanted  13:1,  they would have  needed to add about 7 percent , so a number 7 would be in that box.  If they found 13:1 and they wanted 14:1, then a -7 would go in that box. 

 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 11:20:18 pm by gashousegorilla »
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High On Octane

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Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 07:05:10 am
Thanks for the reply GHG!

So, I was understanding the systems tuning correctly.  Sometimes, I start second guessing myself and need to hear it from someone else's mouth to convince myself.  Haha!  ;D
So, reasoning behind my questions.  I recently got ANOTHER bad batch of gas last week and developed a terrible misfire at 1/3-1/2 throttle while cruising or at moderate acceleration.
Convinced there was no possible way I got a second bad batch of gas from a completely different gas station, I disconnected the PC-V thinking IT was the problem.
I then discovered with it disconnected, that despite the bad gas and still present misfire, the bike actually ran pretty good with considerably less popping out the exhaust.
Other reason being, my buddy who previously owned the bike never was able to get the PC-V tuned correctly, and actually suggested disconnecting it a while back before I messed with tuning.

So, essentially, I'm leaving the PC-V disconnected for a few more rides to get a "feel" for the stock map.
Then I want to look at my current performance map again, tweak fuel as necessary, and add 1* of timing up to 2750 RPMs, 2* at 2800-6000 RPMs, then 1* of timing just before redline as not to bend valves or anything like that.
To the best of my knowledge, I cannot run an O2 because my bike did not have one equipped originally.
Because that was one of the first things I wanted to do, was install a pair of wide band O2's and incorporate the Auto Tune feature to provide my baseline.  But again, I don't think that is possible for my setup.

Thoughts???
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


gashousegorilla

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Reply #3 on: September 06, 2018, 05:49:12 pm
  I hear ya , no worries .  Well... If your still getting a mis-fire with the PC-V disconnected, I would find the source of that first before any tuning.  This is a near close to stock bike ?    Nothing crazy, just intake and exhaust mods ?   Or top end stuff... higher compression ratio , chamber/ piston stock ?  Stock  Cams ?   Stock rod , Bore  and stroke ?   But If it is close to stock, I would be thinking pretty much ALL fuel adjustment  and not so much timing.   I think I remember guys having an issue with the speed sensor on those bikes if I am not mistaken ? Gap on your plugs are not too wide, where you are getting blow out with a richer AFR ?      To be honest, I haven't seen or heard of bad gas from a station since the 80's.  That is around here anyway now.  But I guess it is possible ? .....Twice though ? 

     I would start with the PC-V stuff, by down loading the latest software from the dynojet site and installing it.... If that's a 2001 bike, there is a good chance that the PC-V is an old version.  Then I would calibrate the throttle position sensor voltage , to make sure that your throttle position is in line with your map... either your Zero map or your tuned map.

 Just a heads up on something here...  If that bike was tuned with a certain TPS voltage and now your TPS is giving a different reading ?  Then your map will be off.    When you plug in your PC-V to your computer , with the bike running at idle , you should see the throttle position at ZERO.   If you see  something like 2 or 5 ?   Then your throttle position needs to be calibrated and put in line with the Map.  Go to power commander tools... calibrate throttle position,  you will see a TPS voltage reading there.  That is the reading that they tuned the bike at.   You will also see the readings that your TPS is putting out.    Your readings should be pretty close to what is already in there.  If they are ?   Then I would go ahead and go through the Calibration procedure.    If they are not ?  Then that is a clue for you ...  your fuel map was created based off of that previous TPS Voltage , and now your map may be either too rich or too lean with your current Voltage readings.  All those numbers in the fuel table  were created when your Voltage might have been something else  ?...  Follow ?    So if you were go a head and re-calibrate your TPS to what your voltage is reading now ... and that voltage is way off ?  Then so would the numbers in your fuel table.   Again.. those numbers were created when the voltage was different.   Not sure if it is common on Harley's or not  ? Or if the TPS sensor can be accidentally moved or not where the Voltage would change ?  But it can happen on and Enfirld I have seen , from vibration or accidentally knocking into it with a battery or something.

   I would also check your sensor connections .  And ESPECIALLY your ground connection for the PC-V .  I would run that right to the negative side of the battery and not the chassis.   Your hot side to a good clean 12v switched source.  Any doubt on that connection ? ... you can always temporarily run a jumper  right from your hot side of the battery to the PC-V , and see if your problem goes away.   Ground and hot connections problems are common. 

  You CAN install that auto tuner with the wide band sensors, even if you didn't have an o2 sensor before .   You would just need to drill and weld onto your pipe, the 18mm bungs that they supply with the kit.  You sure there is not a new head pipe on that bike , and an o2 sensor cheater tucked up in the harness Scottie ?  Maybe they dumped the stock header that had the original narrow band bung on the pipe ?
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #4 on: September 06, 2018, 06:55:13 pm
   BTW Scottie, what I do with the Enfields to eliminate decel popping , is to set my target air fuel ratio's at 14.1:1 in the Zero throttle position ... from 2000 RPM's up to red line.    14.1:1, because that is stoich for our 10 percent Ethonol fuel here in the states.  Not 14.7:1  Doing this works for me and eliminates the pops and bangs.   I will find in that column of boxes  from ....2000-6750....  That fuel is added in some of those boxes , and fuel is removed in some of those boxes.   So the fueling is not linear when you are off throttle... the air fuel ratio varies at different RPM's when you come off throttle.  Sometimes it's lean and sometimes it dumping so much fuel into the chamber, that it doesn't light up until it's in the hot pipe.  keep it it at Stoich works for me...

 Dynojet recommends ADDING fuel in that area to eliminate the Decel pops.    Just keep adding fuel until they go away..... ummmmm  ?  To me that is inefficient and only wastes fuel .  It just makes things SO feckin' rich  that it can't burn ,  and then it goes out the tail pipe .....  And maybe past the rings as well, fouling your oil . 

  I think you would thoroughly enjoy tuning with an autotuner Scottie.....  ;)
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High On Octane

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Reply #5 on: September 07, 2018, 08:21:19 am
Well, believe it or not, I did in fact get another bad batch of gas.  I ran the tank all the way down until the light came on Tuesday morning, filled up at a gas station by work that I know for a fact always has fresh premium, and she has ran flawlessly since.  Fact is, Colorado has terrible gas and I've seen bikes develop fuel problems from sitting as little as 2-3 months.  I believe my problem is that I live Aurora (the "affordable" part of Denver  ;D >:( ) and no-one can afford premium fuel here, and so it sits in the tanks and goes stale.  I now work in an area that is dealer after dealer, restaurant after restaurant, and the regular clientele drive Mercedes and BMWs.  And for example, at work, we sell Aprilia, Ducati, MV Agusta, KTM, Husqvarna, Vespa, Piaggio, Honda, Kawi, Suzuki.  So needless to say, most of the people in that neck of the woods have to run premium.  Anyway, she's all good again and going to hook up the PC-V again this morning before work.

As for mods:  95ci kit/140 psi both cylinders cold (previously 88ci), Big Sucker Intake, ground pounder stepped exhaust, S&S Performance Hydraulic cam plate and oil pump, the cams I believe are stock, as I didn't see any significant markings when I installed the oil pump and cam plate.  Also, keep in mind that I am at almost 5,500' elevation at home.  The first 2 maps that Dyno Jet created for the bike were way too wild and bike was way too rich.  I installed a map I found off the website for Stage 1 V&H Big Radius exhaust and Screaming Eagle intake.  Bike ran descent, but was way too rich 1/2 throttle and up.  Went into that map and and on my 8th configuration had the bike running the best it ever has.  But, I'm tinkerer, and I know I can get better.  Unfortunately the Magnetti Morelli system that these bike have aren't the best setup, and again, no O2.

My exhaust does have bungs on it, so might be worth looking into some stand alone A/F gauges and mount them on my handlebars.  Tho, I suppose 1 would be fine.  The other problem I have is there are only a couple of dynos in town, and most either won't tune at all and just let you pull.  Or, they want to tune your bike FOR you and charge you $500-$800.  I do know tho, FWIW, with the map I built currently, she will smoke the tire all the way thru 1st gear to about 25-30mph.   ;)
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #6 on: September 07, 2018, 08:37:58 am
Hopefully a little visual will help.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #7 on: September 07, 2018, 09:41:01 am
Looks like I'm definitely going to need to thin out that midrange.  No misfire this morning, but she did have a slight hesitation.  Ripped like Hell at WOT getting on the interstate!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


Arizoni

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Reply #8 on: September 07, 2018, 05:37:49 pm
   BTW Scottie ...

 Dynojet recommends ADDING fuel in that area to eliminate the Decel pops.    Just keep adding fuel until they go away..... ummmmm  ?  To me that is inefficient and only wastes fuel .  It just makes things SO feckin' rich  that it can't burn ,  and then it goes out the tail pipe .....  And maybe past the rings as well, fouling your oil . 

  I think you would thoroughly enjoy tuning with an autotuner Scottie.....  ;)

Ummm.  Seems like I recall, if the old motorcycle engines with a carburetor start popping and banging on decel after freeing up the breathing, the answer was to install larger jets in the carburetor to stop it from doing that.

Maybe Dynojets suggestion is based on using that old method?
Jim
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High On Octane

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Reply #9 on: September 07, 2018, 05:49:29 pm
Ummm.  Seems like I recall, if the old motorcycle engines with a carburetor start popping and banging on decel after freeing up the breathing, the answer was to install larger jets in the carburetor to stop it from doing that.

Maybe Dynojets suggestion is based on using that old method?

You would think that.  But if you look at DJ's map I based off of, there is a huge fuel cut a 0% throttle over 2500 RPMs.  Wondering if I should fatten up idle, and pull back on midrange.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


gashousegorilla

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Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 07:53:33 pm
  Interesting with  all that Scottie.   Yeah, big difference tuning down here at sea level, for sure

  I think what is going on with that canned map from Dynojet that you installed, and are now modifying..... Your going in the right Direction BTW... They were having issues with a LOT of decel popping  with that Vance and Hines pipe.  So what they did is either cut the fuel at ZERO throttle , or at least leaned it out enough so it WOULD burn in the chamber instead of the pipe.  And it looks like they advanced the timing in that ZERO throttle column, to cool down the exhaust temps  when you come off throttle .   More advanced timing there will cool down the exhaust temps at bit, and make it less likely for any unburned fuel in the exhaust to lite up in the pipe.    Timing that is  retarted at that area would raise the exhaust temps, so they advanced it to try and cool thing off.    The decel popping is harmless most of the time but it can get feckin' annoying, so I think that is what they were doing there.    But on your particular bike , with the way it is set up and where you are at.   You maybe too rich or lean  at Zero throttle when you roll off.   It just has to be right basically , with the correct AFR so it burns in the chamber before it goes out the pipe.   And that canned map from Dynojet was probably created in Vegas, which is still probably a couple/few thousand feet below you i'm thinking..
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #11 on: September 07, 2018, 08:30:39 pm
Ummm.  Seems like I recall, if the old motorcycle engines with a carburetor start popping and banging on decel after freeing up the breathing, the answer was to install larger jets in the carburetor to stop it from doing that.

Maybe Dynojets suggestion is based on using that old method?

   Dynojet recommends that to people doing it on the're own , and not using a dyno.   All the're doing is saying , "Here , try richening the hell out of it when you close the throttle and see it it don't pop anymore "   .    It's a bit different with a Carb, your only dealing with three or four circuits. And if things are really lean , where it's popping every time you roll off to shift, THATS may be an indication that you have to up-jet.  But with the EFI and the PC-V it more of a more specific and narrower area where decel popping will  happen.  Between Zero and two percent throttle for the most part .  The rest of the map may be  too rich or or too lean.

 BTW Scotte,  did you active your yellow cell tracer on the software ?  It will highlight the cells that you are in , when you roll on and off the throttle.
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High On Octane

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Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 09:05:21 pm
That all makes perfect sense.  Also why I was wanting to make some corrections.  Also I'm now thinking the bad misfire was a combination of things.  1. The obvious bad fuel.  2. The bad fuel combined with the fat mix at midrange was loading up on fuel and not even combusting.  3. With the lack of an O2 sensor and the efi/ecm only being able to correct for cylinder/air temp and cooler weather here, the ecm may have been trying to over correct throwing an even bigger monkey wrench into the mix.

Anyway.  I'm going to sit down at the desktop after dinner and make some changes to the map.  I'm going to fatten up idle, lean out mid, try to create a nice linear fuel and timing curve, and pull back fuel and timing just before red line.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #13 on: September 09, 2018, 08:39:59 am
Sooooooooo........   ;D

I've had a bit of success with the PC-V.  Five more maps later, I think I'm onto something.  Idle I went from the -15's to 3's and 5's and she was straight up firing off shots.  Much better mid range, but was too fat at WOT and wasn't accelerating as strong or fast.  I didn't make much change to the timing at this time.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #14 on: September 09, 2018, 08:47:44 am
I went back in a couple of more times tweaking the fuel and timing here and there.  Idle I set to -5ish, mid range 7-10, and 80-100% throttle I trimmed in some spots and fattened up in others to try and smooth it out.  I also added 1* of timing across the board and pulled all timing advance out of redline across the board.

5 maps later???  Bike now pulls hard at all throttle positions and really screams when you open her up.  Decel still pops but is much more tame and considerably quieter.  I'm super happy with this current map and feel it would be worth my time and money to put her on a dyno with a sniffer and see where I'm at.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King