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Author Topic: Stumped  (Read 1744 times)

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heloego

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Reply #30 on: September 29, 2018, 05:11:28 pm
Adjusted the TPS, but best I get is .65v at Idle. WOT stays steady at 3.77v.
Shouldn't the WOT reading increase, too?  ???
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Bert Remington

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Reply #31 on: September 29, 2018, 06:10:56 pm
There appears to be conflicting information on proper WOT TPS voltage. I would expect WOT voltage to be about the same as ECU's Pin 13 regulated VCC (Voltage Common Collector), which in my non-RE experience is traditionally TTL's 5V, as referenced to Pin 24 SG (Signal Ground).  Two possibilities come to mind:

(1) VCC is shared by the TPS, MAP, and fallover sensors.  Could a high wiring resistance or one of the sensors be pulling the VCC down with reference to the ECU?

(2) SG is shared by the TPS, MAP, cylinder temperature, fallover, and HEGO sensors.  Could a high wiring resistance or one of the sensors be pulling the voltage up with reference to the ECU?

While SG is separate from Pin 8 LG (Logic Ground) and Pins 35,36 PG (Power Ground), in my RE experience these voltages are identical even though they have separate wires connected to the chassis and/or battery negative.  It is preferable they all terminate under the same very clean chassis fastener (I forget if RE did this; my wires now do); ditto cleanliness for the battery inline connector (which I removed when I increased wire size).
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version
2000 BMW R1100RT


heloego

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Reply #32 on: September 29, 2018, 08:47:36 pm
At this point I need to clear the MIL codes to see what I really have now.
Currently I have four showing (Once again, I didn't wait long enough to see if there were more than the Crank Sensor code):
   6L-6S - Crank Sensor Circuit . Removed side cover and checked screws are tight, and hand cranked the kicker to verify good signals from the sensor. Checked good. Re-racked connector with contact enhancer.
   3L-3S - Injector Circuit. Verified voltage and ops of injector. Had it flow checked by a local outfit. Checked good. Re-racked the connector with contact enhancer.
   1L-7S - O2 Circuit. Cleaned and re-installed the sensor when I removed the EJK to get the bike back close to stock. As far as I know it's still good. Cleaned, applied contact enhancer to pins in the connector, and re-racked.
   0L-9S - MAP circuit. Cleaned with MAP cleaner from local auto store per directions. Re-racked connector with contact enhancer.
   Too late tonight to test ride or check voltages at the ECU, but I have all day tomorrow to check.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


heloego

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Reply #33 on: September 29, 2018, 08:57:34 pm
BTW, here's the procedure provided by Freddy1 elsewhere that I've tried for clearing the MIL codes, but hasn't worked for me:


"This is the procedure to delete the codes of errors recorded in the ECU memory of Bullet EFI.
1- motorcycle off
2-connect to ground the special the purple wire coming from the ECU (otherwise the procedure does not work ).
3- open up completely the throttle
4- turn the ignition key to ON (but do not start the engine).
5- wait 10-12 seconds (if you wait more than 12 second the procedure does not work) and release the throttle grip.
6- The MIL light after further 5 seconds blinks rapidly 2 times and the memory is erased.
Tested procedure successfully on my EFI Bullet G5 2010.
I'll keep trying.  ::) Sorry if message is not understandable, translated from Italian by google translator."
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Dalmatian man

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Reply #34 on: September 30, 2018, 03:07:34 am
Adjusted the TPS, but best I get is .65v at Idle. WOT stays steady at 3.77v.
Shouldn't the WOT reading increase, too?  ???

The WOT should increase to close on 5 volts,  are you getting the full 5 volt supply to the tps at the three pin connector, is the throttle cable adjusted correctly so you are achieving full throttle.


Haggis

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Reply #35 on: September 30, 2018, 03:27:56 am
The TPS input is 5v but output volts at full throttle is only about 3.8v. so your 3.77 is pretty close.
Off route, recalculate?


heloego

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Reply #36 on: September 30, 2018, 08:44:53 am
I figured the 3.77v at WOT was close enough. Glad the TPS is slightly adjustable. It's basically a variable resistor (potentiometer in there so I assumed the voltage at WOT would increase some, too. A difference of .03 shoudn't have much (if any) effect.
If needed, can the TPS be removed and cleaned?
The Parts book only gives a PN for the complete throttle assembly. For that matter, the Service Manual barely mentions the MAP sensor and no info on checking resistance or correct voltage.
In any case, my current readings are close enough it's time to move on and clear those stupid codes before taking it out on the road.
Thanks for all the input from everyone so far.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Dalmatian man

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Reply #37 on: September 30, 2018, 10:28:09 am
The tps is a non serviceable  part, trying to clean it will damage the potentiometer. As you say they are not listed as a available part.
They are a 0 to 5k ohm pot, maybe possible to sorcerer one from elsewhere


Bert Remington

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Reply #38 on: September 30, 2018, 10:50:26 am
From the PDF service manual I purchased from CMW:

TPS: Operating Voltage 5V  Output Voltage 0 to 5V  Throttle Angle 0 to 80 degrees  Idling Voltage 0.6V nominal; 0.4V to 0.8V acceptable

* The Throttle Angle range is obviously wrong (should be 90 degrees -- I checked).
* The Idling Voltage range is unusually wide in my experience.
* The Output Voltage maximum is about what I expected in my experience but I haven't measured it and the service manual is less than a trustworthly reference.
* Your observed WOT 3.77V may reflect a voltage divider as well as a potentiometer in the TPS which is why it isn't affected by adjustments.

MAP: I agree with you that RE failed to provide this information.

Fall Over Sensor (aka Roll Over Sensor properly named Bank Angle Sensor): Operating Voltage 12V

* The Operating Voltage is obviously wrong (should be 5V unless all the wiring diagrams I've seen are wrong; in either event we have another RE fail)

At this point I think its time to take the "swap it out" approach.  Circumstances provided me with a complete set of 2010 C5 and 2016 C5 electronics (ie, everything that plugs into ECU) I can loan you for a few months.  I can ship the 2016 components to you Tuesday (I have to disassemble the engine to retrieve the CPS) and the 2010 components in a month (the 2010 ECU has the pre-2014 firmware).  I also have a surplus intake manifold with fuel injector and a throttle body with TPS and MAP that I purchased on eBay.  I believe they came from a 2012 C5.
2016 RE Classic 500 CA version
2000 BMW R1100RT


gashousegorilla

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Reply #39 on: September 30, 2018, 11:15:13 am
BTW, here's the procedure provided by Freddy1 elsewhere that I've tried for clearing the MIL codes, but hasn't worked for me:


"This is the procedure to delete the codes of errors recorded in the ECU memory of Bullet EFI.
1- motorcycle off
2-connect to ground the special the purple wire coming from the ECU (otherwise the procedure does not work ).
3- open up completely the throttle
4- turn the ignition key to ON (but do not start the engine).
5- wait 10-12 seconds (if you wait more than 12 second the procedure does not work) and release the throttle grip.
6- The MIL light after further 5 seconds blinks rapidly 2 times and the memory is erased.
Tested procedure successfully on my EFI Bullet G5 2010.
I'll keep trying.  ::) Sorry if message is not understandable, translated from Italian by google translator."

   Did you have the kill switch set to run , before you turned the key on ?   

 Anyway..

Ground diagnostic wire to a clean part of the chassis, or at the negative side of the battery.

 Set the kill switch to the run position.

 Hold the throttle fully open

turn the key on

Wait for about ten seconds or less.. before the mil light pops on again.... and release the throttle.

There will be a couple blinks after that to let you know as I remember , and the codes are gone.


 It's a good idea to clear those codes , then take it for a ride see if any come back.  It sounds like your TPS is just fine to me though.   And I would be more inclined to think Speed sensor ( pulsar coil ) down at the rotor.   

 And I would most definitely do a compression test using the starter motor and not the kick starter.  Fuel pump unplugged and with the throttle wide open when you do it.   With the auto decomp installed, you should see a reading above 120 psi.  And when you are done, remember you will now have a stored fuel pump code because you had it unplugged . ;D    So you can go ahead  and clear that one too, if you like. 
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


heloego

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Reply #40 on: September 30, 2018, 11:57:14 am
GHG: Your timing couldn't have been better. I was in the middle of asking where to get your info when you posted. HUGE THANKS!
Following the other instructions I was waiting too long before releasing the throttle. Codes are cleared and I'm ready to roll. Method has been printed and added to my shop notes binder for future reference.
As for compression, I tried using the starter, and never got much of a reading, though it feels good as new any time I kick it over.


Bert: Thanks for the generous offer, but I really want to nail this down before simply swapping out parts that may be perfectly good. As for the TPS, since it is not supposed to be user serviceable, I'm leary of finding one on Flea Bay that would be not only new, but serviceable. Too many unscrupulous folks around to take the risk, unless somone here has had a good experience and can provide a link. And for what it would cost to get a new throttle body I'd rather follow in the steps of a couple of our forum mates and change over to a carb (I quite enjoyed messing with the carb on my '06 Electra).

SO I'm ready to take it out again, and I'll report back when I'm done.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


gashousegorilla

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Reply #41 on: September 30, 2018, 03:04:13 pm

"As for compression, I tried using the starter, and never got much of a reading, though it feels good as new any time I kick it over."




  What does that tell ya ?    :-\ 

  If you are down on power and have no top end.    It could be a problem with valve seal....  Or a auto decomp that is hanging up.... Or  you could be floating a valve , because you have a weak spring.  At higher at higher RPM's the spring or springs may be loosing control of the valve.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


heloego

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Reply #42 on: September 30, 2018, 05:54:43 pm
Rode it.
Gained 5mph for a blistering 55mph. ;)
No MIL codes now. At least that's good.
Yeah, dammit, I figure it's time to pull the head and get cracking, so I'll get on the horn with Tim tomorrow and order up some valves, springs, rings, seals and gaskets. Be a good time to de-carbonize the guts, too.


'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


gashousegorilla

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Reply #43 on: September 30, 2018, 06:08:04 pm
  Or just pull the head  for now... flip it upside down and fill the chamber with MMO or tranny fluid and see if the valves are leaking into the ports.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


heloego

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Reply #44 on: September 30, 2018, 06:57:08 pm
That'll be the first step.
On it tomorrow.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.