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heloego

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on: August 20, 2018, 01:35:00 pm
Ok, I'm stumped and at a standstill. ???
Once the sidecar was installed I never got the performance I needed (highway speeds) so off with the sidecar, back to 18T primary sprocket, new chain and short megaphone silencer.

However, even without the car the C5 still will not exceed 50mph. Period. It's fine at Start and has decent accel up through 4th gear, but once I'm in 5th I constantly have to accelerate just to keep it at 50mph. At WOT it just stutters.
What I've checked so far, and the results:
Fuel - Weak, badly leaking pump replaced.  Checked for leaks in the Filter/Throttle body manifold, Throttle/Injector body Insulator, Injector body/Intake port insulator, and Injector/Injector body. No leaks noted. No performance improvement.
Injector - Has very nice spray when using the start switch. I didn't check at various throttle openings. Should I do this? Or can I assume a consistent spray throughout the throttle range?
Insulator - Replaced due to crumbling causing interference with the spray. No improvement other than the bike now starts and idles great.

Spark - Nice enough spark. Swapped between the BPR6EIX and BPR6ES. No difference in performance. Re-installed the EIX. Replaced the cap, coil, and wire. Spark even better, but no performance improvement. Plug(s) looks normal. Maybe very slightly lean without the EJK.

Sensors/Connectors - Cleaned and re-connected the all connectors at the TPS (still in original position, wasn't moved), Head Temp sensor, Fuel pump Connecter, Coil, the re-installed O2 sensor, alternator, and RR. No performance improvement.
It's been suggested I check the compression (requires removal of the Auto De-Comp), but since I'm not seeing any smoking at the exhaust I'm not sure that's justified. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per the Troubleshooting in the back of the service manual, the following have been checked:Tire Inflation good, Chain Adjustment correct, Brakes not binding, Cooling Fins clean, correct spark and plug, clean new Filter Element,  Mobil 1 V-Twin oil as always and correct level, Wheel Bearings not sticking, Throttle cables lubed/not stickingand adjusted properly, B-Start cable not sticking, no suction leakage, and the piston/cylinder don't appear to have much carbon build-up and what I can see of the valves looks good.

I'm leaning toward a fuel issue of some kind, but TBH I'm stumped and frustrated as I'd like to get this running as good as before so I can sell it to make more room in the garage.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated.





'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


no bs

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Reply #1 on: August 20, 2018, 02:07:38 pm
recommend fuel pressure/volume test. :)
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Bert Remington

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Reply #2 on: August 20, 2018, 03:06:32 pm
Its a long shot but the tank-to-FI hose may have partially collapsed especially in your NM heat.  Its a tight 180 bend.  I like the Gates Barricade MPI hose.

I might have missed it but have you cleaned your FI?  While the fuel tank pump was deteriorating, it could have allowed particles to reach the FI.  And while GHG indicated the FI duty cycle is about 40%, perhaps high speed at high altitudes at high temperature either built up hard-to-remove deposits requiring professional removal or else affected the plunger in which case replacement is needed (I have one).

Lastly, you have an EVP canister? If so, block the TB port.  It made a difference on my 2016 C5 CA version but not as drastic as your loss of power.
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Richard230

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Reply #3 on: August 20, 2018, 04:23:55 pm
Dirty fuel filter?
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heloego

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Reply #4 on: August 20, 2018, 05:03:55 pm
Richard230: Pump comes with a new filter. I cleaned out the tank prior to installation. Scope of the new filter yesterday shows it's still clean as new. Pump pressure is between 40 and 42 PSI. Supposed to be good enough, but (maybe it's just me) the prime seems to take a few seconds longer than it used to.

Bert: Hmm. Sometimes the obvious just slips right by me.  ::) I'll check into it. Maybe some new hose...And no I have not had the injector cleaned professionally. I'm good about adding Chevron's Techron (about 3 ounces/tank fill) every time I fill her up. But it won't clean some particles. Could well be the issue.And there was no Californicated EVP cannister on the bike when I got it. It would have been removed immediately anyway.
Thanks for the suggestions, and I'll report back if I find anything.




'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Richard230

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Reply #5 on: August 20, 2018, 05:10:11 pm
Replacing the fuel hose is probably a good idea. It might be rotted inside from too much exposure to smog gas.
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph Bonneville T-100, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


heloego

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Reply #6 on: August 20, 2018, 05:26:30 pm
Which, in turn, may have induced particles into the injector. Hmmm....
Well, the hose looks great. No bends or soft spots. Looks like the injector gets a good cleaning (needed or not). Then hope for the best.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:08:47 pm by heloego »
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'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Arizoni

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Reply #7 on: August 20, 2018, 07:20:12 pm
Is it possible that the wiring that runs from the crank position sensor to the main harness isn't full plugged in or the connectors where it does are corroded?

Your saying that at WOT the engine stutters might be due to a vibration issue causing the connectors to make/break contact?

I'm sure you didn't do this but, is the top of the spark plug just a bare thread like it should be?   More than a few people have forgotten to remove the spark plug "cap" before they connected the spark plug cap on the high tension spark plug wire.
If this happens, the plug can "fire" nicely when it's out of the engine but when it has to fire in the high pressure of the compressed air/fuel in the cylinder it will misfire.
Jim
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Grant Borden

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Reply #8 on: August 20, 2018, 08:27:39 pm
heloego,

I'm not a mechanic by any stretch, something I just remembered that happened to my injected Moto Guzzi that gave symptoms very similar to yours, it took taking it to shop twice to find. I do not know if the Royal Enfields have this or not.

The problem was corrosion on a connector that connected to a sensor that told the computer the altitude causing it to revert to a fail-safe mode keeping it from running any faster than 60 mph, holding the throttle wide open made it shudder. The mechanic said there was a tube from the sensor to the airbag that would cause the same problem in the event it became kinked or debris blocked air flow in the tube.

Hope this helps with your troubleshooting. By the way, my C5 with a sidecar cruises 60-65 mph with a top speed of 73 in 5th, under the right conditions it will several mph faster. GHG made this happen.

Grant
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Rattlebattle

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Reply #9 on: August 21, 2018, 03:35:09 am
Could it be that the fuel filler cap is bunged up partially so that there is insufficient fuel at WOT in top gear?
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Sectorsteve

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Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 04:30:36 am
Gidday All. Its been a while.
Im pretty sure you have the same problem i had that took alot of nutting out to get to the bottom of.
The tanks are painted. After a while, they flake off and constantly block the fuel system. Only solution is to Red Kote the tank. you can change all the components and it wont matter. your bike will keep running badly until its so blocked itll stop.




Ok, I'm stumped and at a standstill. ???
Once the sidecar was installed I never got the performance I needed (highway speeds) so off with the sidecar, back to 18T primary sprocket, new chain and short megaphone silencer.

However, even without the car the C5 still will not exceed 50mph. Period. It's fine at Start and has decent accel up through 4th gear, but once I'm in 5th I constantly have to accelerate just to keep it at 50mph. At WOT it just stutters.
What I've checked so far, and the results:
Fuel - Weak, badly leaking pump replaced.  Checked for leaks in the Filter/Throttle body manifold, Throttle/Injector body Insulator, Injector body/Intake port insulator, and Injector/Injector body. No leaks noted. No performance improvement.
Injector - Has very nice spray when using the start switch. I didn't check at various throttle openings. Should I do this? Or can I assume a consistent spray throughout the throttle range?
Insulator - Replaced due to crumbling causing interference with the spray. No improvement other than the bike now starts and idles great.

Spark - Nice enough spark. Swapped between the BPR6EIX and BPR6ES. No difference in performance. Re-installed the EIX. Replaced the cap, coil, and wire. Spark even better, but no performance improvement. Plug(s) looks normal. Maybe very slightly lean without the EJK.

Sensors/Connectors - Cleaned and re-connected the all connectors at the TPS (still in original position, wasn't moved), Head Temp sensor, Fuel pump Connecter, Coil, the re-installed O2 sensor, alternator, and RR. No performance improvement.
It's been suggested I check the compression (requires removal of the Auto De-Comp), but since I'm not seeing any smoking at the exhaust I'm not sure that's justified. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per the Troubleshooting in the back of the service manual, the following have been checked:Tire Inflation good, Chain Adjustment correct, Brakes not binding, Cooling Fins clean, correct spark and plug, clean new Filter Element,  Mobil 1 V-Twin oil as always and correct level, Wheel Bearings not sticking, Throttle cables lubed/not stickingand adjusted properly, B-Start cable not sticking, no suction leakage, and the piston/cylinder don't appear to have much carbon build-up and what I can see of the valves looks good.

I'm leaning toward a fuel issue of some kind, but TBH I'm stumped and frustrated as I'd like to get this running as good as before so I can sell it to make more room in the garage.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated.


Sectorsteve

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Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 04:34:47 am
I took my fuel pump from the tank. Connected it directly to a battery. you can dismantle it to a degree. I bet if you do this youll find little specks of red paint all through it. I did. I dismantled the fuel filter. you cant go back from that, but anyway the filter was full of red paint form the tank. i reinstalled the filter but not the fine mesh using SS cable ties and i bought these fine small filters that you put in the fuel hose after the fuel pump under the tank. PIA, but it worked. By connecting the FP directly to the battery, you push everything out. It only takes minute particles to block the injector as well. Once the Fuel pump is cleaned through, then you can reconnect it and youll push anything out of the injector. Its a PIA for sure.But that is the problem and a google search will show that its fairly common. Once this is done you must redkote the inside of the tank.

Which, in turn, may have induced particles into the injector. Hmmm....
Well, the hose looks great. No bends or soft spots. Looks like the injector gets a good cleaning (needed or not). Then hope for the best.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 04:41:02 am by Sectorsteve »


heloego

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Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 08:11:39 am
Thanks, all for the rapid-fire responses.
I had mentioned that I've a new pump and filter, so I don't think I've run enough to foul anything there, and the Fuel Hose is still in excellent shape. No crud or obvious deterioration inside. No evidence of collapse anywhere. It's really pretty tough material.

Judging by the lack of proper sealing at the factory, even though the inside of my tank looks pretty good I'll drain and seal it before doing anything else. Still have a can of RedKote on the shelf.

Once re-installed, along with a cleaned (or new) injector I'll report back. May be a week or to due to RL, but every saga has an ending.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
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Richard230

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Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 08:26:14 am
A comment above reminded my that my 1997 BMW Funduro had an issue with poor running at large throttle openings. I finally tracked the problem down to poor tank venting through the infamous charcoal canister.  When I removed that device, plugged the various vacuum ports and vented the tank directly to the air, the bike then ran fine. So could you have a tank venting issue?  Easy enough to check, of course.
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph Bonneville T-100, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


gashousegorilla

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Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 11:33:55 am
Ok, I'm stumped and at a standstill. ???
Once the sidecar was installed I never got the performance I needed (highway speeds) so off with the sidecar, back to 18T primary sprocket, new chain and short megaphone silencer.

However, even without the car the C5 still will not exceed 50mph. Period. It's fine at Start and has decent accel up through 4th gear, but once I'm in 5th I constantly have to accelerate just to keep it at 50mph. At WOT it just stutters.
What I've checked so far, and the results:
Fuel - Weak, badly leaking pump replaced.  Checked for leaks in the Filter/Throttle body manifold, Throttle/Injector body Insulator, Injector body/Intake port insulator, and Injector/Injector body. No leaks noted. No performance improvement.
Injector - Has very nice spray when using the start switch. I didn't check at various throttle openings. Should I do this? Or can I assume a consistent spray throughout the throttle range?
Insulator - Replaced due to crumbling causing interference with the spray. No improvement other than the bike now starts and idles great.

Spark - Nice enough spark. Swapped between the BPR6EIX and BPR6ES. No difference in performance. Re-installed the EIX. Replaced the cap, coil, and wire. Spark even better, but no performance improvement. Plug(s) looks normal. Maybe very slightly lean without the EJK.

Sensors/Connectors - Cleaned and re-connected the all connectors at the TPS (still in original position, wasn't moved), Head Temp sensor, Fuel pump Connecter, Coil, the re-installed O2 sensor, alternator, and RR. No performance improvement.
It's been suggested I check the compression (requires removal of the Auto De-Comp), but since I'm not seeing any smoking at the exhaust I'm not sure that's justified. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per the Troubleshooting in the back of the service manual, the following have been checked:Tire Inflation good, Chain Adjustment correct, Brakes not binding, Cooling Fins clean, correct spark and plug, clean new Filter Element,  Mobil 1 V-Twin oil as always and correct level, Wheel Bearings not sticking, Throttle cables lubed/not stickingand adjusted properly, B-Start cable not sticking, no suction leakage, and the piston/cylinder don't appear to have much carbon build-up and what I can see of the valves looks good.

I'm leaning toward a fuel issue of some kind, but TBH I'm stumped and frustrated as I'd like to get this running as good as before so I can sell it to make more room in the garage.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated.

 heloego, is your Mil light on when the bike is running ?   Is your Mil light bulb good ?
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heloego

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Reply #15 on: August 21, 2018, 09:43:35 pm
GHG: No codes and MIL operating properly.Jerked the tank and the injector today. Have to wait a week before I can take the injector to anybody.
Arizoni: Plug had the tip removed before I put it on. No bad connection there. Will look at the timing sensor connectors again tomorrow.

Rb: No worries on the cap. I'd fitted a round cap conversion and the vent is clean, and even if plugged there's enough air leakage around the gasket a plug would have no effect. LOL

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Haggis

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Reply #16 on: August 22, 2018, 02:37:16 am
Have you checked the TPS output voltage? TPS may be fubar.🔧🔧
Off route, recalculate?


mike_bike_kite

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Reply #17 on: August 22, 2018, 05:32:13 am
I'm no mechanic but what does the spark plug look like after you've been running it at top speed?
When did the speed issue start? was it fine before the sidecar? when the new exhaust was added?
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heloego

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Reply #18 on: August 22, 2018, 09:18:28 am
Haggis: TPS position has not changed since new, but thanks for the tip. I'll check it after work.
m_b_k: Plug looks just fine, if slightly lean. Normal carbon on the ring, and the insulator is a bit off-white, though not light tan. All this started as soon as I put the sidecar and long reverse cone silencer on. No other changes made. Having reverted back to the previous configuration (short silencer and no sidecar) the bike runs as if it still has the sidecar and long silencer installed.
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Ergyd

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Reply #19 on: August 22, 2018, 01:00:48 pm
Leak at the exhaust head?

Had similar symptoms, though not exactly the same, and reinstalling the exhaust with a proper copper ring solved it.


Sectorsteve

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Reply #20 on: August 27, 2018, 04:56:58 pm
Did you get this sorted?
Do you want an injector? I have one and you can have it.
Let me know. 


heloego

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Reply #21 on: August 27, 2018, 08:37:13 pm
This seven day stretch of work has been murder, so no I have not pulled the injector yet. 11.5 hour days can be killers. By the time I get home I have just enough time to check the forums, then it's beddy bye.

My next stretch of "off" days will be spent in the Denver area collecting some estate items left me by a close friend, so it may be awhile before I get it pulled and determine the need, if any, for a new one.
Thanks for the offer Steve, but I'll have to hold off for the nonce.  :)
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Sectorsteve

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Reply #22 on: August 28, 2018, 07:05:33 am
Its not going anywhere. Its under the house along with the tank ,steering stem  and ecu parts. The last bits left from my parted out c5.  :) my kawasaki zephyr is the shizzle. 170kph down the highway. So reliable. So fast. Love it


Bilgemaster

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Reply #23 on: August 28, 2018, 02:02:15 pm
Have you checked the TPS output voltage? TPS may be fubar.🔧🔧

« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 02:04:26 pm by Bilgemaster »
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heloego

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Reply #24 on: September 19, 2018, 09:20:19 am
[EDIT]

Sorry for late update. Work.  ::) The exhaust is not leaking.

Since my visit to Denver I took the injector to a local outfit (Diesel Forward) for a "Clean Flow, and Advise", and here's the report, as written:
 "Unit for repair/1 gas injector/Customer states clean and flow injector/Flow injector found decent spray pattern/Clean injector and re-flow/Found spray pattern improved and fuel delivery increased approximately 1cc/"
I wondered a bit about the "increased appproximately 1cc" after the business had said that he initially measured a volume of 76cc, and after cleaning in an ultrasonic tub saw an increase to 86cc. A typo in the report (should have read 10cc)?
So the only thing I have to go on is the injector has continuity through the pins, the solonoid works when power applied, and the flow check was good per the technician. 

One would think that would settle the issue, but a mechanic I know and have trusted over the years asked about the results and says that still doesn't mean the injector is good to go, and the only way to be certain is pop in a new one to compare. OK, at anywhere from $65 to $150 either I have to shell out $$$ to get one fast, or wait forever to get one from India.

Installed the injector yesterday and took her for a run. Same issue, and seemed slightly more sluggish at lower speeds and gears. Still stutters at WOT, and I still can't get over 50mph indicated as if the sidecar was still attached.

I'll hold off until I can properly check the TPS. That said, I've been looking through the Service Manual for info on the TPS but can't seem to locate anything. Then I found singhg5's video in my library. Will check the TPS and temp sensors as soon as I can. Hopefully today.

The bike has been returned to the same condition as it was prior to adding the sidecar, EJK removed, and O2 sensor re-installed.

I have not done a proper compression check yet, since that would require removal of the auto decomp, but if necessary I'll do it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 11:45:22 am by heloego »
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'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


portisheadric

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Reply #25 on: September 19, 2018, 12:18:51 pm
Base setting is 0.6V +/- 0.2volts. maximum is just above 3.8 but does vary.
Also check for a clean voltage sweep between the fully closed and fully open positions.
I recently had a lot of misfiring with mine and failed to do exactly that. Because I had normal open and closed readings, I dismissed the TPS unit as being responsible for the problem.


Just throwing in something here (like a red herring) from the far far far left field...
The Himalayan's employ a system where if the bike is in neutral and exceeds a certain RPM limit, it cuts fuel to the engine - this is in addition to the rev limiter which cuts in at much higher RPM.

The Bullets might possibly have something similar that we've thought of as the rev limiter activating not realising without a rev counter that it's not.
Does your Neutral gear indicator light go out and stay out when using other gears?  Could there be a wiring problem allowing the ECU to think the engine is being used in the mid range and in Neutral when it's obviously not?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 12:37:39 pm by portisheadric »
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heloego

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Reply #26 on: September 20, 2018, 07:25:26 pm
OK.
Actually had some free time today so back-pinned the TPS and checked voltage.

Idle Voltage: 0.57vWOT Voltage: 3.77vSmooth voltage sweep between positions.
Engine Temp Sensor: 1.5 ohms at 34 Celsius.Based on the chart in the Service Manual this looks OK.
Map Sensor: Reads 5v.

Got to thinking about over-thinking the MIL light. Apparently I wasn't waiting long enough to get a code before turning off the ignition. Waited 20 seconds this time and got 6 long and 6 short - Crank position sensor.
Checked the wires at the sensor. Looked good, so I inspected the connector behind the battery. Not so good. Appeared pretty full of crap from being exposed to the elments which would increase the resistance. Cleaned the connectors, applied Stabilant22, re-connected and covered with heat shrink.
Got it all back together and took a ride.

Definite improvement in throttle. Doesn't sputter anymore at WOT, but still not getting the power to get over 52mph.
Map Sensor, maybe?
Anyone pulled the MAP to check/clean?


'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Arizoni

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Reply #27 on: September 20, 2018, 07:45:54 pm
I haven't even peered into my engine cases but it sounds like your on the right track.

There is no way in hell your 500 should be limited to 52 mph.
Maybe you'll be lucky and find the screws that hold the crank position sensor are loose and tightening them back up will fix things?

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


heloego

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Reply #28 on: September 28, 2018, 07:09:09 am
Ok, so I now have 6 of my normal 7-day break left to dick with this confounding problem, less any time running the dogs to and fro from the vet and groomer.
Jim, I'll check the crank position mounting screws first. If no improvement, then see about cleaning the MAP sensor. I'll update on the progress.


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Dalmatian man

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Reply #29 on: September 28, 2018, 11:36:04 am
Your tps voltages are on the low side, aim for 0,7 to 0.75 on idle and as close to 5.0 volts on full throttle.


heloego

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Reply #30 on: September 29, 2018, 05:11:28 pm
Adjusted the TPS, but best I get is .65v at Idle. WOT stays steady at 3.77v.
Shouldn't the WOT reading increase, too?  ???
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Bert Remington

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Reply #31 on: September 29, 2018, 06:10:56 pm
There appears to be conflicting information on proper WOT TPS voltage. I would expect WOT voltage to be about the same as ECU's Pin 13 regulated VCC (Voltage Common Collector), which in my non-RE experience is traditionally TTL's 5V, as referenced to Pin 24 SG (Signal Ground).  Two possibilities come to mind:

(1) VCC is shared by the TPS, MAP, and fallover sensors.  Could a high wiring resistance or one of the sensors be pulling the VCC down with reference to the ECU?

(2) SG is shared by the TPS, MAP, cylinder temperature, fallover, and HEGO sensors.  Could a high wiring resistance or one of the sensors be pulling the voltage up with reference to the ECU?

While SG is separate from Pin 8 LG (Logic Ground) and Pins 35,36 PG (Power Ground), in my RE experience these voltages are identical even though they have separate wires connected to the chassis and/or battery negative.  It is preferable they all terminate under the same very clean chassis fastener (I forget if RE did this; my wires now do); ditto cleanliness for the battery inline connector (which I removed when I increased wire size).
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heloego

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Reply #32 on: September 29, 2018, 08:47:36 pm
At this point I need to clear the MIL codes to see what I really have now.
Currently I have four showing (Once again, I didn't wait long enough to see if there were more than the Crank Sensor code):
   6L-6S - Crank Sensor Circuit . Removed side cover and checked screws are tight, and hand cranked the kicker to verify good signals from the sensor. Checked good. Re-racked connector with contact enhancer.
   3L-3S - Injector Circuit. Verified voltage and ops of injector. Had it flow checked by a local outfit. Checked good. Re-racked the connector with contact enhancer.
   1L-7S - O2 Circuit. Cleaned and re-installed the sensor when I removed the EJK to get the bike back close to stock. As far as I know it's still good. Cleaned, applied contact enhancer to pins in the connector, and re-racked.
   0L-9S - MAP circuit. Cleaned with MAP cleaner from local auto store per directions. Re-racked connector with contact enhancer.
   Too late tonight to test ride or check voltages at the ECU, but I have all day tomorrow to check.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
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heloego

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Reply #33 on: September 29, 2018, 08:57:34 pm
BTW, here's the procedure provided by Freddy1 elsewhere that I've tried for clearing the MIL codes, but hasn't worked for me:


"This is the procedure to delete the codes of errors recorded in the ECU memory of Bullet EFI.
1- motorcycle off
2-connect to ground the special the purple wire coming from the ECU (otherwise the procedure does not work ).
3- open up completely the throttle
4- turn the ignition key to ON (but do not start the engine).
5- wait 10-12 seconds (if you wait more than 12 second the procedure does not work) and release the throttle grip.
6- The MIL light after further 5 seconds blinks rapidly 2 times and the memory is erased.
Tested procedure successfully on my EFI Bullet G5 2010.
I'll keep trying.  ::) Sorry if message is not understandable, translated from Italian by google translator."
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Dalmatian man

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Reply #34 on: September 30, 2018, 03:07:34 am
Adjusted the TPS, but best I get is .65v at Idle. WOT stays steady at 3.77v.
Shouldn't the WOT reading increase, too?  ???

The WOT should increase to close on 5 volts,  are you getting the full 5 volt supply to the tps at the three pin connector, is the throttle cable adjusted correctly so you are achieving full throttle.


Haggis

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Reply #35 on: September 30, 2018, 03:27:56 am
The TPS input is 5v but output volts at full throttle is only about 3.8v. so your 3.77 is pretty close.
Off route, recalculate?


heloego

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Reply #36 on: September 30, 2018, 08:44:53 am
I figured the 3.77v at WOT was close enough. Glad the TPS is slightly adjustable. It's basically a variable resistor (potentiometer in there so I assumed the voltage at WOT would increase some, too. A difference of .03 shoudn't have much (if any) effect.
If needed, can the TPS be removed and cleaned?
The Parts book only gives a PN for the complete throttle assembly. For that matter, the Service Manual barely mentions the MAP sensor and no info on checking resistance or correct voltage.
In any case, my current readings are close enough it's time to move on and clear those stupid codes before taking it out on the road.
Thanks for all the input from everyone so far.
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Dalmatian man

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Reply #37 on: September 30, 2018, 10:28:09 am
The tps is a non serviceable  part, trying to clean it will damage the potentiometer. As you say they are not listed as a available part.
They are a 0 to 5k ohm pot, maybe possible to sorcerer one from elsewhere


Bert Remington

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Reply #38 on: September 30, 2018, 10:50:26 am
From the PDF service manual I purchased from CMW:

TPS: Operating Voltage 5V  Output Voltage 0 to 5V  Throttle Angle 0 to 80 degrees  Idling Voltage 0.6V nominal; 0.4V to 0.8V acceptable

* The Throttle Angle range is obviously wrong (should be 90 degrees -- I checked).
* The Idling Voltage range is unusually wide in my experience.
* The Output Voltage maximum is about what I expected in my experience but I haven't measured it and the service manual is less than a trustworthly reference.
* Your observed WOT 3.77V may reflect a voltage divider as well as a potentiometer in the TPS which is why it isn't affected by adjustments.

MAP: I agree with you that RE failed to provide this information.

Fall Over Sensor (aka Roll Over Sensor properly named Bank Angle Sensor): Operating Voltage 12V

* The Operating Voltage is obviously wrong (should be 5V unless all the wiring diagrams I've seen are wrong; in either event we have another RE fail)

At this point I think its time to take the "swap it out" approach.  Circumstances provided me with a complete set of 2010 C5 and 2016 C5 electronics (ie, everything that plugs into ECU) I can loan you for a few months.  I can ship the 2016 components to you Tuesday (I have to disassemble the engine to retrieve the CPS) and the 2010 components in a month (the 2010 ECU has the pre-2014 firmware).  I also have a surplus intake manifold with fuel injector and a throttle body with TPS and MAP that I purchased on eBay.  I believe they came from a 2012 C5.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #39 on: September 30, 2018, 11:15:13 am
BTW, here's the procedure provided by Freddy1 elsewhere that I've tried for clearing the MIL codes, but hasn't worked for me:


"This is the procedure to delete the codes of errors recorded in the ECU memory of Bullet EFI.
1- motorcycle off
2-connect to ground the special the purple wire coming from the ECU (otherwise the procedure does not work ).
3- open up completely the throttle
4- turn the ignition key to ON (but do not start the engine).
5- wait 10-12 seconds (if you wait more than 12 second the procedure does not work) and release the throttle grip.
6- The MIL light after further 5 seconds blinks rapidly 2 times and the memory is erased.
Tested procedure successfully on my EFI Bullet G5 2010.
I'll keep trying.  ::) Sorry if message is not understandable, translated from Italian by google translator."

   Did you have the kill switch set to run , before you turned the key on ?   

 Anyway..

Ground diagnostic wire to a clean part of the chassis, or at the negative side of the battery.

 Set the kill switch to the run position.

 Hold the throttle fully open

turn the key on

Wait for about ten seconds or less.. before the mil light pops on again.... and release the throttle.

There will be a couple blinks after that to let you know as I remember , and the codes are gone.


 It's a good idea to clear those codes , then take it for a ride see if any come back.  It sounds like your TPS is just fine to me though.   And I would be more inclined to think Speed sensor ( pulsar coil ) down at the rotor.   

 And I would most definitely do a compression test using the starter motor and not the kick starter.  Fuel pump unplugged and with the throttle wide open when you do it.   With the auto decomp installed, you should see a reading above 120 psi.  And when you are done, remember you will now have a stored fuel pump code because you had it unplugged . ;D    So you can go ahead  and clear that one too, if you like. 
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


heloego

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Reply #40 on: September 30, 2018, 11:57:14 am
GHG: Your timing couldn't have been better. I was in the middle of asking where to get your info when you posted. HUGE THANKS!
Following the other instructions I was waiting too long before releasing the throttle. Codes are cleared and I'm ready to roll. Method has been printed and added to my shop notes binder for future reference.
As for compression, I tried using the starter, and never got much of a reading, though it feels good as new any time I kick it over.


Bert: Thanks for the generous offer, but I really want to nail this down before simply swapping out parts that may be perfectly good. As for the TPS, since it is not supposed to be user serviceable, I'm leary of finding one on Flea Bay that would be not only new, but serviceable. Too many unscrupulous folks around to take the risk, unless somone here has had a good experience and can provide a link. And for what it would cost to get a new throttle body I'd rather follow in the steps of a couple of our forum mates and change over to a carb (I quite enjoyed messing with the carb on my '06 Electra).

SO I'm ready to take it out again, and I'll report back when I'm done.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #41 on: September 30, 2018, 03:04:13 pm

"As for compression, I tried using the starter, and never got much of a reading, though it feels good as new any time I kick it over."




  What does that tell ya ?    :-\ 

  If you are down on power and have no top end.    It could be a problem with valve seal....  Or a auto decomp that is hanging up.... Or  you could be floating a valve , because you have a weak spring.  At higher at higher RPM's the spring or springs may be loosing control of the valve.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


heloego

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Reply #42 on: September 30, 2018, 05:54:43 pm
Rode it.
Gained 5mph for a blistering 55mph. ;)
No MIL codes now. At least that's good.
Yeah, dammit, I figure it's time to pull the head and get cracking, so I'll get on the horn with Tim tomorrow and order up some valves, springs, rings, seals and gaskets. Be a good time to de-carbonize the guts, too.


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'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


gashousegorilla

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Reply #43 on: September 30, 2018, 06:08:04 pm
  Or just pull the head  for now... flip it upside down and fill the chamber with MMO or tranny fluid and see if the valves are leaking into the ports.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


heloego

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Reply #44 on: September 30, 2018, 06:57:08 pm
That'll be the first step.
On it tomorrow.
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wildbill

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Reply #45 on: October 02, 2018, 10:10:11 pm
well I have not been lucky enough to test a high mileage bike BUT on the past 3 with the decompressor removed from the bikes on a cold motor I got 150 lbs on the compressing tester.
bikes ran well on that including the red redditch...LOL
just something for you to try I guess
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heloego

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Reply #46 on: October 04, 2018, 12:22:04 pm
   I've found something interesting while tearing down the head, and, since we all know good things are worth waiting for, my next post will provide a great laugh for all at my expense.
   And I'm gonna make you all wait. So there.  :P
   Any $64 questions?  ???
   
   Note: I am not laughing.  ::)
 
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Bert Remington

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Reply #47 on: October 04, 2018, 02:42:14 pm
Are you going to do anything with valve train while head is off?  I'm asking for a friend. :)
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Narada

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Reply #48 on: October 04, 2018, 04:09:59 pm
Pushrods mixed up? ???  Rocker block bolts loose? Used tp roll for air filter and it clogged intake???  ::)

Found lost socket in head pipe?
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

2015 Classic Chrome/Maroon, Forged Dome Piston, Ported head and H.P. Cams by SB/GHG, Power Commander-V, K&N, "Fin" intake, Dunlop K-70's, Koso TNT, Premium EFI Silencer.

2015 Triumph T-100, Orange / Black Two-Tone.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #49 on: October 04, 2018, 06:30:58 pm
   Loose spark plug, with the compression blowing out ?!  Come on , your killing me !  :o
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


wildbill

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Reply #50 on: October 04, 2018, 07:22:30 pm
failed head gasket
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wildbill

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Reply #51 on: October 04, 2018, 08:53:56 pm
or...badly seating valve?
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Narada

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Reply #52 on: October 05, 2018, 10:35:59 am
Bad negative ground terminal at battery! :P
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

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2015 Triumph T-100, Orange / Black Two-Tone.
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Mad4Bullets

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Reply #53 on: October 05, 2018, 11:18:08 am
I too had a strange and similar problem that was ultimately the result of the sheered negative ground wire battery connector. I eventually found the problem quite by accident by test riding the bike at night. I was under the impression that the engine alone was suffering from an intermittent miss, but at night it was obvious that all the lights were missing at the same time. A quick inspection revealed the connector had sheered right along its bend line.  Poor design.  I have since replaced the flimsy and highly stressed factory connectors with heady duty lugs.  It seems that this particular location of the bike is highly prone to vibration related issues.  Everyone should inspect their battery connectors, especially the negative end. Good luck to you.


portisheadric

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Reply #54 on: October 05, 2018, 11:42:03 am
Dislodged exhaust push rod holding the valve partially open?   
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9fingers

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Reply #55 on: October 06, 2018, 02:52:38 pm
Betting mouse nest in the airbox.....happened to me on one of my trials bikes.......rode an event with live mice in the box and wondered why I was a bit down on power.
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wildbill

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Reply #56 on: October 06, 2018, 07:50:58 pm
waiting anxiously for the end result to this saga ;)
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heloego

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Reply #57 on: October 07, 2018, 07:58:13 pm
Bert: I expected either a valve issue or rings. Maybe even a holed piston. Already tore the head down, valves inspected and good, springs' free length in spec, and will replace the stem seals when they arrive. Probably ok, but WTF as long as I've gone this far I may as well replace them. Piston's got some heavy coking, though the valve cavity actually looks pretty good. Did a leak check of the valves before disassembly and no leaky. Still gonna clean things up a bit. The barrel looks very good, with all the cross-hatching still showing nicely. No gouges or scratches. Compression apparently is not the problem.  :)

Narada: Push Rods, rockers good. No socket in the head pipe. All the wiring is good. And my TP rolls are way to big for the air box. I'm a good little consumer and buy the biggest rolls I can get.  ;)

GHG: Plug is good. Tight as necessary. Hope you're still alive and kickin' by the time this is posted.  ;)

Wild Bill: Head gasket and valves good.

Mad4Bullets: Thx for the well wishes. Electrical not an issue. Aller ist gut!

Portisheadric: Push Rods are fine, were installed correctly, and still have a mirror polish.

9Fingers: No mice, nests, or poop in the intake system. First thing I checked was the filter on my ACE can.

When changing the silencer to a long reverse meg, I USED TOO MUCH SEALANT![/size]The back pressure was a bit much, ya think?  :-[ [/size]


'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Bert Remington

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Reply #58 on: October 07, 2018, 08:23:32 pm
heloego -- I found the source of your excess sealant problem -- your workbench is overly tidy and organized. :)  PS what sealant did you use?  It looks like it might have expanded when heated.
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heloego

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Reply #59 on: October 07, 2018, 08:28:04 pm
I didn't have any high temp silicone, so I resorted to that crap exhaust "sealant" that was cheaply available from CMW back in the day.I didn't realize that stuff expanded so damned much!  >:( At least it's easy enough to clean out. Might as well polish up the exhaust port and cavity before I re-assemble everything.  :) So the tube was pitched immediately, and it's high temp silicone from now on. PERIOD!  ;)
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wildbill

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Reply #60 on: October 07, 2018, 08:37:40 pm
good find! now I expect you WILL keep the bike ;) after all they are a fun ride
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Bert Remington

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Reply #61 on: October 07, 2018, 08:42:28 pm
And when does the sidecar go back on?
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heloego

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Reply #62 on: October 07, 2018, 08:50:03 pm
   I'll keep the Electra, not the C5. Now that I've got the Bonnie for the car, the C5 will just take up room in the garage.
   Originally I planned to install a GPS speedo in the Electra and do a re-paint as a Winter project, but that's put on hold for now while I finish putting the C5 back together and then get the car attached to the Bonnie.
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9fingers

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Reply #63 on: October 07, 2018, 09:35:44 pm
Wow that looks like Hell! And I was so sure it was a mouse nest.................
Glad you found out what was ailing your bike.
9fingers
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Mad4Bullets

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Reply #64 on: October 08, 2018, 06:39:11 am
Congratulations on finding the source of the problem! Your systematic approach and dedication has paid off, and that's always a great day eh?  I hate that gray muffler cement. It's garbage. You're almost forced to use more than you need as it dries up and flakes away in short order.  I had fits with it when trying to keep my aftermarket muffler secure on the header pipe. It always loosened in time and left only a hard to remove gritty residue.  That said I've since had tremendous luck with Permatex high-temperature muffler and tail pipe sealer which seals beautifully and remains pliable if applied per the directions.  If you don't already have a particular brand in mind I would recommend this one.  See the attached photo. Regards and continued good luck,  Kevin Daly


heloego

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Reply #65 on: October 08, 2018, 06:46:03 am
   I completely spaced on Troubleshooting Rule #1: "Where was the last bit of maintenance done?" and then work back from there. Completely forgot I had to install a new gasket when I replaced that muffler. Could have had this solved sooo much earlier.  ::)
   Oh well, we live, we screw up, and hopefully learn from the experience.  :)
   Once I get the de-coking finished and get this thing back together I'll report back.
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Narada

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Reply #66 on: October 08, 2018, 04:21:31 pm
That was kind of like having a lost socket in the pipe!  ::)

Nice find. Yeah, I always check the last thing I did. Almost always reveals the problem! :D

Now about those industrial size TP rolls...  :o
Realize your Self on a Royal Enfield.

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2015 Triumph T-100, Orange / Black Two-Tone.
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heloego

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Reply #67 on: October 11, 2018, 02:50:23 pm
Now that everything is cleaned up it's "hurry up and wait" for the gaskets to get here. Looking forward to getting this thing back on the road.  :)
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Grant Borden

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Reply #68 on: October 11, 2018, 08:25:01 pm
heloego,

Hopefully your problem has been found. Ince back running are you going through with your plan to attach the Cozy to the Triumph?

Grant
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gizzo

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Reply #69 on: October 11, 2018, 10:16:04 pm
 ;D ;D ;D That is Gold! Happy days!
If you'd kept running it like that would the gasket goo eventually have eroded away and effectively fixed itself? Or is it hard like concrete?

Reminds me of the time I rebuilt a ST Lister and the bloody thing wouldn't go above idle. Started and idled like a champ though. I wasted more time than I should have before I pulled off the inlet manifold and found the rag stuffed in there...
simon from south Australia
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heloego

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Reply #70 on: October 12, 2018, 08:01:21 am
Grant:

   Yep, I do hope that is the problem. It always did just fine at lower throttle settings, but would get sickly as I increased throttle.
   The Cozy will be attached to the Triumph for sure.

   The current plan is the C5 will get a good touch-up and cleaning so I can sell it to make more room in the garage. I'm seriously running out of space, and decided I've too much time, $$$, and emotion invested in the Electra to let it go anywhere soon. At least for now. I've been known to change my mind.  ;)    And it's a foregone conclusion I won't be able to get anywhere near a good price for it.


Gizzo:
  The stuff may have eventually broken away and the problem may have solved itself, but once it expanded it was almost as hard as concrete. Surprisingly so. Hard enough to seriously increase the back pressure at higher throttle settings, anyway. I do think this was the issue all along, but I'll only know for sure once I get it back together. Valves and rings are in excellent condition. That was my big concern, so it appears all the stuff I ordered except for the seals will become stock for future repair.  :)
   
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
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'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Arizoni

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Reply #71 on: October 12, 2018, 01:59:25 pm
Boy!
A plugged up exhaust port?  I would have never guessed that was the problem but once you get that crap out of there I'm betting your old motorcycle will run like a champ!
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


heloego

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Reply #72 on: October 16, 2018, 08:03:14 am
   Parts came in late yesterday. Definitely more than I'll actually need, but the extra can go into stock.  ;)
   10 days from order to receipt. Still not bad at all, especially since Tim advised me the NIS parts could have a lead time of 21 days to arrive. I assumed they'd probably have to get them from India, but everything received from our hosts in good order as usual.  :)
   Only have a couple days to play so we'll see how far I get into it today and tomorrow before I have to go back to work for a week.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


heloego

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Reply #73 on: October 26, 2018, 06:34:54 pm
Got a new set of rings for the piston, but just wondering if replacing the rings is necessary with only 16K on the clock.
The originals are in very good shape, so just wondering, as it might save me another break-in period.


[Edit] Cancel that. Might as well go with the new rings. A few trips to Santa Fe with take care of the break-in. ::)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 09:53:42 am by heloego »
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


heloego

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Reply #74 on: November 08, 2018, 03:37:36 pm
Pleased to announce the C5 is running beautifully again.  ;D Thanks to all who contributed to helping me.  8)
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Mad4Bullets

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Reply #75 on: November 08, 2018, 05:55:59 pm
This is great news and we've all learned something here.  You'll sleep well tonight.  Congratulations.  Regards,  Kevin Daly


heloego

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Reply #76 on: November 09, 2018, 06:37:31 am
Definitely good news for me. ;D
I'll do another leak check this morning and, if all is well, time to add the EJK and go for another "smiles per mile" thingy.  ;)
   Gotta hit the Social Security office first thing, though, and get signed up to start receiving the $$$ the Feds now owe me. Well, most of it, anyway. The extra income goes toward Principle so I can get the Mortgage Monkey off my back.



'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


tooseevee

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Reply #77 on: November 09, 2018, 07:05:19 am

   Gotta hit the Social Security office first thing, though, and get signed up to start receiving the $$$ the Feds now owe me. Well, most of it, anyway. The extra income goes toward Principle so I can get the Mortgage Monkey off my back.

       This is off-topic, I know, but good for you. As advice for younger folks, that's the smartest thing you can do if you own a house. We bought this house in 1989 with a legitimate 30 year fixed mortgage and by discipline we paid it off in 15 years saving humoungous amounts of money. Now all we have to worry about are the taxes.

        And for those who bitch about interest rates all I can say is I paid 12% for the first house I bought in 1970 after Urban Renewal (a totally disastrous Progressive idea) destroyed the town I lived in. 
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


Richard230

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Reply #78 on: November 09, 2018, 07:58:53 am
Definitely good news for me. ;D
I'll do another leak check this morning and, if all is well, time to add the EJK and go for another "smiles per mile" thingy.  ;)
   Gotta hit the Social Security office first thing, though, and get signed up to start receiving the $$$ the Feds now owe me. Well, most of it, anyway. The extra income goes toward Principle so I can get the Mortgage Monkey off my back.

As someone who has been getting Social Security for some time, don't count the number of your SS chickens before they hatch.  Your payment will be reduced by the amount of your monthly Medicare premium, which increases each year faster than SS cost of living increases.  :( Plus SS is taxed by the IRS, which makes you pay back some of the money that you received during the year on the money that you were also being taxed on for your entire working life. (Why tax once when you can tax twice.  ::)  )The government gives and the government takes away.  >:( 

Very oddly for California, which tends to tax everything that can be seen, this state does not tax SS payments, for which I do appreciate as my state income tax payments are already closing in on 50% of the amount that I pay the IRS, even when not including SS money.    :o
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph Bonneville T-100, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


mattsz

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Reply #79 on: November 09, 2018, 08:38:59 am
Definitely good news for me. ;D
I'll do another leak check this morning and, if all is well, time to add the EJK and go for another "smiles per mile" thingy.  ;)
   Gotta hit the Social Security office first thing, though, and get signed up to start receiving the $$$ the Feds now owe me. Well, most of it, anyway. The extra income goes toward Principle so I can get the Mortgage Monkey off my back.
As someone who has been getting Social Security for some time, don't count the number of your SS chickens before they hatch.  Your payment will be reduced by the amount of your monthly Medicare premium, which increases each year faster than SS cost of living increases.  :( Plus SS is taxed by the IRS, which makes you pay back some of the money that you received during the year on the money that you were also being taxed on for your entire working life. (Why tax once when you can tax twice.  ::)  )The government gives and the government takes away.  >:( 

Very oddly for California, which tends to tax everything that can be seen, this state does not tax SS payments, for which I do appreciate as my state income tax payments are already closing in on 50% of the amount that I pay the IRS, even when not including SS money.    :o

heloego and Richard230 - looking at just your conversation's progression of "smileys" is telling:

 ;D   ;)   :(   ::)   >:(   :o

Now I'm depressed...


Stanley

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Reply #80 on: November 09, 2018, 12:56:19 pm
I love retirement. It keeps my griping from being interrupted by work.
Give a Brit a piece of metal and he'll do something silly with it.


Richard230

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Reply #81 on: November 09, 2018, 05:34:35 pm
I love retirement. It keeps my griping from being interrupted by work.
   

 ;D
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph Bonneville T-100, 2002 Yamaha FZ1