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heloego

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on: August 20, 2018, 01:35:00 pm
Ok, I'm stumped and at a standstill. ???
Once the sidecar was installed I never got the performance I needed (highway speeds) so off with the sidecar, back to 18T primary sprocket, new chain and short megaphone silencer.

However, even without the car the C5 still will not exceed 50mph. Period. It's fine at Start and has decent accel up through 4th gear, but once I'm in 5th I constantly have to accelerate just to keep it at 50mph. At WOT it just stutters.
What I've checked so far, and the results:
Fuel - Weak, badly leaking pump replaced.  Checked for leaks in the Filter/Throttle body manifold, Throttle/Injector body Insulator, Injector body/Intake port insulator, and Injector/Injector body. No leaks noted. No performance improvement.
Injector - Has very nice spray when using the start switch. I didn't check at various throttle openings. Should I do this? Or can I assume a consistent spray throughout the throttle range?
Insulator - Replaced due to crumbling causing interference with the spray. No improvement other than the bike now starts and idles great.

Spark - Nice enough spark. Swapped between the BPR6EIX and BPR6ES. No difference in performance. Re-installed the EIX. Replaced the cap, coil, and wire. Spark even better, but no performance improvement. Plug(s) looks normal. Maybe very slightly lean without the EJK.

Sensors/Connectors - Cleaned and re-connected the all connectors at the TPS (still in original position, wasn't moved), Head Temp sensor, Fuel pump Connecter, Coil, the re-installed O2 sensor, alternator, and RR. No performance improvement.
It's been suggested I check the compression (requires removal of the Auto De-Comp), but since I'm not seeing any smoking at the exhaust I'm not sure that's justified. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per the Troubleshooting in the back of the service manual, the following have been checked:Tire Inflation good, Chain Adjustment correct, Brakes not binding, Cooling Fins clean, correct spark and plug, clean new Filter Element,  Mobil 1 V-Twin oil as always and correct level, Wheel Bearings not sticking, Throttle cables lubed/not stickingand adjusted properly, B-Start cable not sticking, no suction leakage, and the piston/cylinder don't appear to have much carbon build-up and what I can see of the valves looks good.

I'm leaning toward a fuel issue of some kind, but TBH I'm stumped and frustrated as I'd like to get this running as good as before so I can sell it to make more room in the garage.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated.





'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


no bs

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Reply #1 on: August 20, 2018, 02:07:38 pm
recommend fuel pressure/volume test. :)
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Bert Remington

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Reply #2 on: August 20, 2018, 03:06:32 pm
Its a long shot but the tank-to-FI hose may have partially collapsed especially in your NM heat.  Its a tight 180 bend.  I like the Gates Barricade MPI hose.

I might have missed it but have you cleaned your FI?  While the fuel tank pump was deteriorating, it could have allowed particles to reach the FI.  And while GHG indicated the FI duty cycle is about 40%, perhaps high speed at high altitudes at high temperature either built up hard-to-remove deposits requiring professional removal or else affected the plunger in which case replacement is needed (I have one).

Lastly, you have an EVP canister? If so, block the TB port.  It made a difference on my 2016 C5 CA version but not as drastic as your loss of power.
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Richard230

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Reply #3 on: August 20, 2018, 04:23:55 pm
Dirty fuel filter?
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph Bonneville T-100, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


heloego

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Reply #4 on: August 20, 2018, 05:03:55 pm
Richard230: Pump comes with a new filter. I cleaned out the tank prior to installation. Scope of the new filter yesterday shows it's still clean as new. Pump pressure is between 40 and 42 PSI. Supposed to be good enough, but (maybe it's just me) the prime seems to take a few seconds longer than it used to.

Bert: Hmm. Sometimes the obvious just slips right by me.  ::) I'll check into it. Maybe some new hose...And no I have not had the injector cleaned professionally. I'm good about adding Chevron's Techron (about 3 ounces/tank fill) every time I fill her up. But it won't clean some particles. Could well be the issue.And there was no Californicated EVP cannister on the bike when I got it. It would have been removed immediately anyway.
Thanks for the suggestions, and I'll report back if I find anything.




'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Richard230

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Reply #5 on: August 20, 2018, 05:10:11 pm
Replacing the fuel hose is probably a good idea. It might be rotted inside from too much exposure to smog gas.
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph Bonneville T-100, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


heloego

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Reply #6 on: August 20, 2018, 05:26:30 pm
Which, in turn, may have induced particles into the injector. Hmmm....
Well, the hose looks great. No bends or soft spots. Looks like the injector gets a good cleaning (needed or not). Then hope for the best.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:08:47 pm by heloego »
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Arizoni

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Reply #7 on: August 20, 2018, 07:20:12 pm
Is it possible that the wiring that runs from the crank position sensor to the main harness isn't full plugged in or the connectors where it does are corroded?

Your saying that at WOT the engine stutters might be due to a vibration issue causing the connectors to make/break contact?

I'm sure you didn't do this but, is the top of the spark plug just a bare thread like it should be?   More than a few people have forgotten to remove the spark plug "cap" before they connected the spark plug cap on the high tension spark plug wire.
If this happens, the plug can "fire" nicely when it's out of the engine but when it has to fire in the high pressure of the compressed air/fuel in the cylinder it will misfire.
Jim
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Grant Borden

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Reply #8 on: August 20, 2018, 08:27:39 pm
heloego,

I'm not a mechanic by any stretch, something I just remembered that happened to my injected Moto Guzzi that gave symptoms very similar to yours, it took taking it to shop twice to find. I do not know if the Royal Enfields have this or not.

The problem was corrosion on a connector that connected to a sensor that told the computer the altitude causing it to revert to a fail-safe mode keeping it from running any faster than 60 mph, holding the throttle wide open made it shudder. The mechanic said there was a tube from the sensor to the airbag that would cause the same problem in the event it became kinked or debris blocked air flow in the tube.

Hope this helps with your troubleshooting. By the way, my C5 with a sidecar cruises 60-65 mph with a top speed of 73 in 5th, under the right conditions it will several mph faster. GHG made this happen.

Grant
2014 Royal Enfield C5
2008 Kawasaki Concours14
2004 Moto Guzzi EV
1999 MotoGuzzi EV
1993 Moto Guzzi Daytona 1000
1993 BMW K1100LT
1980 BMW R100RS
1980 Vespa P200E
1976 BMW R60/6
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Rattlebattle

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Reply #9 on: August 21, 2018, 03:35:09 am
Could it be that the fuel filler cap is bunged up partially so that there is insufficient fuel at WOT in top gear?
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Sectorsteve

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Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 04:30:36 am
Gidday All. Its been a while.
Im pretty sure you have the same problem i had that took alot of nutting out to get to the bottom of.
The tanks are painted. After a while, they flake off and constantly block the fuel system. Only solution is to Red Kote the tank. you can change all the components and it wont matter. your bike will keep running badly until its so blocked itll stop.




Ok, I'm stumped and at a standstill. ???
Once the sidecar was installed I never got the performance I needed (highway speeds) so off with the sidecar, back to 18T primary sprocket, new chain and short megaphone silencer.

However, even without the car the C5 still will not exceed 50mph. Period. It's fine at Start and has decent accel up through 4th gear, but once I'm in 5th I constantly have to accelerate just to keep it at 50mph. At WOT it just stutters.
What I've checked so far, and the results:
Fuel - Weak, badly leaking pump replaced.  Checked for leaks in the Filter/Throttle body manifold, Throttle/Injector body Insulator, Injector body/Intake port insulator, and Injector/Injector body. No leaks noted. No performance improvement.
Injector - Has very nice spray when using the start switch. I didn't check at various throttle openings. Should I do this? Or can I assume a consistent spray throughout the throttle range?
Insulator - Replaced due to crumbling causing interference with the spray. No improvement other than the bike now starts and idles great.

Spark - Nice enough spark. Swapped between the BPR6EIX and BPR6ES. No difference in performance. Re-installed the EIX. Replaced the cap, coil, and wire. Spark even better, but no performance improvement. Plug(s) looks normal. Maybe very slightly lean without the EJK.

Sensors/Connectors - Cleaned and re-connected the all connectors at the TPS (still in original position, wasn't moved), Head Temp sensor, Fuel pump Connecter, Coil, the re-installed O2 sensor, alternator, and RR. No performance improvement.
It's been suggested I check the compression (requires removal of the Auto De-Comp), but since I'm not seeing any smoking at the exhaust I'm not sure that's justified. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per the Troubleshooting in the back of the service manual, the following have been checked:Tire Inflation good, Chain Adjustment correct, Brakes not binding, Cooling Fins clean, correct spark and plug, clean new Filter Element,  Mobil 1 V-Twin oil as always and correct level, Wheel Bearings not sticking, Throttle cables lubed/not stickingand adjusted properly, B-Start cable not sticking, no suction leakage, and the piston/cylinder don't appear to have much carbon build-up and what I can see of the valves looks good.

I'm leaning toward a fuel issue of some kind, but TBH I'm stumped and frustrated as I'd like to get this running as good as before so I can sell it to make more room in the garage.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated.


Sectorsteve

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Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 04:34:47 am
I took my fuel pump from the tank. Connected it directly to a battery. you can dismantle it to a degree. I bet if you do this youll find little specks of red paint all through it. I did. I dismantled the fuel filter. you cant go back from that, but anyway the filter was full of red paint form the tank. i reinstalled the filter but not the fine mesh using SS cable ties and i bought these fine small filters that you put in the fuel hose after the fuel pump under the tank. PIA, but it worked. By connecting the FP directly to the battery, you push everything out. It only takes minute particles to block the injector as well. Once the Fuel pump is cleaned through, then you can reconnect it and youll push anything out of the injector. Its a PIA for sure.But that is the problem and a google search will show that its fairly common. Once this is done you must redkote the inside of the tank.

Which, in turn, may have induced particles into the injector. Hmmm....
Well, the hose looks great. No bends or soft spots. Looks like the injector gets a good cleaning (needed or not). Then hope for the best.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 04:41:02 am by Sectorsteve »


heloego

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Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 08:11:39 am
Thanks, all for the rapid-fire responses.
I had mentioned that I've a new pump and filter, so I don't think I've run enough to foul anything there, and the Fuel Hose is still in excellent shape. No crud or obvious deterioration inside. No evidence of collapse anywhere. It's really pretty tough material.

Judging by the lack of proper sealing at the factory, even though the inside of my tank looks pretty good I'll drain and seal it before doing anything else. Still have a can of RedKote on the shelf.

Once re-installed, along with a cleaned (or new) injector I'll report back. May be a week or to due to RL, but every saga has an ending.
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


Richard230

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Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 08:26:14 am
A comment above reminded my that my 1997 BMW Funduro had an issue with poor running at large throttle openings. I finally tracked the problem down to poor tank venting through the infamous charcoal canister.  When I removed that device, plugged the various vacuum ports and vented the tank directly to the air, the bike then ran fine. So could you have a tank venting issue?  Easy enough to check, of course.
2011 Royal Enfield B5 500, 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph Bonneville T-100, 2002 Yamaha FZ1


gashousegorilla

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Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 11:33:55 am
Ok, I'm stumped and at a standstill. ???
Once the sidecar was installed I never got the performance I needed (highway speeds) so off with the sidecar, back to 18T primary sprocket, new chain and short megaphone silencer.

However, even without the car the C5 still will not exceed 50mph. Period. It's fine at Start and has decent accel up through 4th gear, but once I'm in 5th I constantly have to accelerate just to keep it at 50mph. At WOT it just stutters.
What I've checked so far, and the results:
Fuel - Weak, badly leaking pump replaced.  Checked for leaks in the Filter/Throttle body manifold, Throttle/Injector body Insulator, Injector body/Intake port insulator, and Injector/Injector body. No leaks noted. No performance improvement.
Injector - Has very nice spray when using the start switch. I didn't check at various throttle openings. Should I do this? Or can I assume a consistent spray throughout the throttle range?
Insulator - Replaced due to crumbling causing interference with the spray. No improvement other than the bike now starts and idles great.

Spark - Nice enough spark. Swapped between the BPR6EIX and BPR6ES. No difference in performance. Re-installed the EIX. Replaced the cap, coil, and wire. Spark even better, but no performance improvement. Plug(s) looks normal. Maybe very slightly lean without the EJK.

Sensors/Connectors - Cleaned and re-connected the all connectors at the TPS (still in original position, wasn't moved), Head Temp sensor, Fuel pump Connecter, Coil, the re-installed O2 sensor, alternator, and RR. No performance improvement.
It's been suggested I check the compression (requires removal of the Auto De-Comp), but since I'm not seeing any smoking at the exhaust I'm not sure that's justified. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per the Troubleshooting in the back of the service manual, the following have been checked:Tire Inflation good, Chain Adjustment correct, Brakes not binding, Cooling Fins clean, correct spark and plug, clean new Filter Element,  Mobil 1 V-Twin oil as always and correct level, Wheel Bearings not sticking, Throttle cables lubed/not stickingand adjusted properly, B-Start cable not sticking, no suction leakage, and the piston/cylinder don't appear to have much carbon build-up and what I can see of the valves looks good.

I'm leaning toward a fuel issue of some kind, but TBH I'm stumped and frustrated as I'd like to get this running as good as before so I can sell it to make more room in the garage.

Any suggestions will be most appreciated.

 heloego, is your Mil light on when the bike is running ?   Is your Mil light bulb good ?
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