[AJY]

No I don't think that 120mph up hill is going to work.  I want some truth.

And the truth is that holding the throttle wide up for any period of extended time is >
(A LESSON IN THE STOOL OF DISAPLIN) 
VIBRATION WILL REACH MAXIMUM VELOCITY, PARTS WILL START TO COME LOSE,  AND YOU AND YOUR BIKE WILL NOT BE HAPPY.  THAT BEING SAID i HAVE TO GET BACK TO WORK TIGHTENING THE HORN, MY CARBURATOR , AND PRIMARY CASE, ON MY HARLEY FROM YESTERDAYS RIDE. 

Actually I am trying to build community presence so you really cant take me to seriously.  I do understand the limits of these bikes.  I just want to have fun and fun does not mean in excess of 75mph.   But on the other hand where I live most of the roads require 50mph, so I just don't want to left behind. 

[ace.cafe]

Is thier such a thing as a sweet spot on these bikes, I am having a hard time believing in it.  Top speeds in excess of 55mph, has the whole world of GROWN UP MOTORCYLISTS GONE NUTS.   

Maybe thier is to much drinking going on in this crowd of 1%ers. 
When all else fails "Ride, Rape, and Pillage" 

When you sieze your first piston, and/or put your first broken con-rod thru the engine cases, you'll believe it.

[RoyalRider]

Hmm. . .how do I answer this? I ride a 2006 Electra with a sport windscreen on it. I'm 5'8" tall and 220 lbs. My RE has 6600 miles on it and everything is stock. My speedometer runs about 5mph fast (40 is really 35 etc.) and I've only run it up to about 70mph actual. The sweet spot on mine is somewhere between 45 and 55 mph actual.

[AJY]

Well guys I have this conception of what a sweet spot for a vehicle of the 2 or 3 or 4 wheel interpretation is. 

Sweet spot defined: at a certain speed the vehicle travels with the harmony of all its parts and person in every aspect of its conception, design and engineering.  Maintaining this harmonic journey takes place in each independent gear therefore creating sweetspots through out the vehicles movement. 
This would be my opinion.
 My Harley FXDX would be 70 to 80 in 5th gear.  4th gear 60 to 65, 3rd 50, 2nd 35 to 40. 
My YamahaTW225 was 5th 50, 4th 40, 3rd  30 to 35, 2nd 25
Based on my past experience with several bikes  I will conclude that the sweetest spot is in the gearing in relation to mph usually at a comfortable cruising speed. 
I would hope that the AVL engine models would be comfortable at 65mph actual speed.  I do not think this is allot to ask. 
Now so many of the group have stressed the idea of leaving the bike stock.  OK > but why does the manufacturer represent this bike as bike with performance up grades, and racing history.  Please do not mss understand me.  Anything no mater how fast or slow can be raced.  It just seems to me that the consensus of the comunity is to not tamper with the motor, > but you can change the seat, and add some other bolt on stuff.  I think HD had this idea all sold up long ago.  I am not an advocate of the bolt on junkies, most things I like to add usually in some respect will improve ridability and maybe a little of the cool factor.

THATS MY STORY AND I AM STICKEN TO IT 

[PhilJ]

AJY,

Why are you YELLING at us?

[ace.cafe]

AJY,
After the bike is broken-in fully, an Electra or AVL type bike will probably be able to do 65mph on the highway for cruising. It would probably be best to put the 18-tooth sprocket on there to raise the gearing a little bit, if you plan to cruise at 65mph regularly.

Regarding your comments about performance mods for racing and stuff, yes they can be done, but they are not designed to significantly increase the long term cruising speeds of the bike. They are mostly for acceleration purposes, and for relatively shorter-term bursts of higher speeds.

The "sweet spot" for these engines is around 75% of max, which would come out around  60mph, plus or minus a little, depending on how your particular bike runs.

The AVL with all of the parts that are available to put on it for performance will yield about 30hp at best, perfectly tuned.

DO NOT  try to do higher speed cruising before the break-in is complete. Period.
After that, I think that 65mph cruising is possible with an AVL with the aftermarket exhaust system and a free-flow air filter. The AVL engine cools a bit better than the iron engine, so it can do a little higher cruising speed than the iron engine. But, not a whole lot higher. If you want 65mph cruising, I think you can get that, if you are patient with the break-in, and then get the free-flow exhaust and air filter.

[birdmove]

    Yeah, since I bought the iron engine, I'm looking at the bikes from a bit different point of view. I'm thinking my Classic is fine at an actual 50mph (when the speedo says 55), and I've heard the AVL can do higher speeds, and may even get better gas mileage. Still, I love my iron engined Classic, and thats what I wanted.
    Doesn't the AVL have a roller bearing main bearing, rather than the iron engine's "floating bush"? Form everything I know, the limiting factors on the irons is the main bearing,con rod, and piston. Push an iron too hard and one or more of these will fail. But I've also heard that these components are fine if the bike is left stock, and not pushed to the limit a lot.
    Here's hoping my '07 turns 40,000= miles.

    Jon

[ace.cafe]

    Yeah, since I bought the iron engine, I'm looking at the bikes from a bit different point of view. I'm thinking my Classic is fine at an actual 50mph (when the speedo says 55), and I've heard the AVL can do higher speeds, and may even get better gas mileage. Still, I love my iron engined Classic, and thats what I wanted.
    Doesn't the AVL have a roller bearing main bearing, rather than the iron engine's "floating bush"? Form everything I know, the limiting factors on the irons is the main bearing,con rod, and piston. Push an iron too hard and one or more of these will fail. But I've also heard that these components are fine if the bike is left stock, and not pushed to the limit a lot.
    Here's hoping my '07 turns 40,000= miles.

    Jon

Yes, the iron engine has a floating bush big end, and alloy con rod and sometimes the pistons aren't real good.
But, the design is not necessarily the problem. The design will do fine as long as limits are observed.
The AVL has roller big end, steel con rod, and gear(gerotor) oil pumps, and an alloy cylinder. These are improvements over the old style, for harder duty. However, they have also been known to fail for similar reasons that the iron engine failed. The QC isn't so good at the factory. But in truth, most of the AVL failures also come from piston seizures or piston failures. So, the root lies in breaking the engine in sufficiently to wear down the crosshatch pattern on the bore, and let it ride in a smooth surface where heat can transfer out the rings to the cylinder fins.
People don't like to hear about the break-in period, but that's what these bikes need.

[AJY]

Sorry guys I wasn't yelling > I did not realize that the text was Bold.  Really I might be crazy but not nasty or angry.  I may seem impossible, > I think I am just used to certain roads and riding, and all the talk of the bullet being so easy to break, is just letting me down.  I relay like the bikes and enjoyed riding it.  When I saw all the neat stuff you can get for them and customise them a little , I felt as though I found moto nirvana of other kind.   

[ace.cafe]

Like I posted on the other thread, you can hit those speeds up to 80mph after the break-in period, but don't try to sustain those speeds.
Sustained speeds of under 60mph with the Iron Bullet and probably about 65mph with the Electra X.

We need to make the distinction here between being able to hit  75mph, and trying to sustain that speed.
You can hit that speed temporarily, and then back off to let it cool down awhile.
You cannot sustain that speed unless you are courting engine failure.

[Adrian]

AJY,

try this for size:

my Electra-X when fitted with the Dell'orto carb and stock 18 tooth counter-shaft sprocket actually had a sweet spot around 72 indicated mph, probably just under70 in real life. It just smoothed out and felt like it could carry on like that for miles. With an occasional backing off of the throttle to allow a little extra oil onto the cylinder wall I am sure it would have been fine for more than just a few minutes.

Dropping to a 17T sprocket has brought the sweet spot down a little, but it's still there. I can cruise at higher speeds than I would on a (stock) iron engined Bullet, it's fine for UK motorway traffic and should cope with any roads you have. Some of the publicity material around when I bought my Electra claimed that the engine was designed to cope with 44 horsepower, so if a tuned example is supposed to good for (only) 31 bhp with the best available components there's still a safe margin. Assuming the factory has put it together right and the owner has taken the trouble to break it in properly, an AVL-engined 500 Bullet with sports exhaust and correctly set-up carb should cruise at 65mph like you want. I know mine will!

If you seriously want one with more relaxed higher speed cruising 19 and even 20 tooth counter-shaft sprockets are available, although you might lose the higher revs in 5th gear if you fit one.

A.

[AJY]

Ace I think you seem to have it pretty well on target to what my vision is for the big picture of riding this bike.  65 or less for highway runs, varied speeds is best,  maybe a shot of juice once and awhile.  Next question > to me sustained speed would be more then 5 minutes at a time.  I don't think that I would want more then 5 minutes of over 65mph on the bullet AVL type engine. 

Now 23hp > you scare me > my Honda 50cc did 40mph all day when I was a kid,  I drove cross country on my first HD sportster (not recomended)  many said I was crazy and yes I believe at the time I was, but also at an age when that kinda thing worked, you conquered, in the rain, and what ever, yes after a five hundred mile day you got off the bike and hoped you would stop vibrating before you woke up the next morning.   I could never ride on a highway at 50mph in NJ that is a death wish.

Adrain > you are also full of good advise  I will stick with you and ace. 
I am sorry 23hp  but your story sounds a little to wimpy for me > I still can not see a 500c single that does not feel ok to ride at 50 to 60mph.  If that's the case maybe its not the motorcycle

[23hp]

AJY

Calling people Wimps when they try to help you makes me think that you should really go back to riding that Honda 50cc.  Probably suit you better...

[Adrian]

I just read 23hp's previous post again.

The carb and exhaust issues are well known, but it's all a question of what you want your motorcycle to do and how well you break it in, set it up and ride it. We might all feel differently about this. 

I'm not sure about the classic framed AVL Bullets (our importers only supplied the Electra-X), but IMHO the Electra-X is over-geared in stock trim for us 6'3" types, which would explain why it doesn't make it much fun getting up those hills! Yes, you can cruise all day at 50 if that's what you want (assuming the stock seat will let you) but cruising at 60 is well within the engine's limits. Mine has managed over 10,000 miles so far, but I promise I will let you know if it goes bang.

Perhaps wimpy wasn't the best word to use (it also used to be the name of a hamburger chain over here, Popeye fans...), but at the end of the day you buy the motorcycle and you have to make your own risk assessment of what sort of riding counts as sensible use. If in doubt your local law enforcement may also have some input... 

Let's hope your new President is motorcycle-friendly.

[ace.cafe]

Okay AJY, as long as I've got your ear, let's get some things nailed down.

First, let's be clear.Are you contemplating an Electra or an Iron Bullet?
It makes a difference,and if we know, then we can target our responses directly, instead of trying to cover all the bases for all the engines.

Next, you really have to stop the comparisons between various Hondas, HD, and other bikes, with the Bullet or Electra.
It doesn't matter what a Honda or HD can do, regarding what a Bullet can do. That's apples and oranges. All that matters when discussing a Bullet is what a Bullet can do. All this stuff about not being able to believe it, and all that sort of thing isn't going to change anything.  It is what it is, and it has limitations that are lower than HDs and Hondas.

Now, that said, if you want to crank up the power with hot-rod parts, ride the holy hell out of it, push it for all it's worth like a race bike, you can do that to an Iron Bullet. .
However, you will need to become very accustomed to engine rebuilding, and also spending alot of money for parts, rebuilds, and breakages.
There are alot more options for hot-rod parts with an Iron Bullet. There's very few options for the AVL/Electra.
You can push the Iron Bullet 500 to about 31rwhp, the 535 big-bore Iron Bullet to about 33rwhp, and if you get the 612cc stroker kit, you can get 40rwhp.
I know all about what it takes to do this, because I'm building one right now, and I have friends that have also done it, and some also have done the full-out 612 kits. I've been researching and discussing various ways of Bullet building for 3 years, with some of the best Bullet builders with the most experience and knowledge, probably in the world.
You're gonna put about $5k-$6k into building an engine like that. If you ride it hard, you'll be rebuilding each year or two.
Your first step is the $1600 billet crankshaft, racing rod, oversize-crankpin with Alpha roller bearing on the big-end, and a top-grade set of European-made main bearings.
If you don't start with that, you're pissing into the wind, because the normal bottom end will fail in no time flat with a hot-rodded top end.
Then, you have to be very judicious in what you pick for the hot-rod parts such as cams, because you can lose your lower rpm torque very quickly, when you try to gain higher rpm power. Then the bike becomes a nightmare to ride on the street.
Additionally, a long stroke single is rpm limited by piston speeds, and no matter what you do, you're not going to get more than about 6500rpm out of this engine in any useful way. More like 6000rpm, realistically. Even with the racing crank/rod/bearings.
Your powerband will get narrow, and you'll have to rev it to get anywhere.
This means you'll have to get the 5-speed gearbox, because you're gonna be shifting alot to keep the engine in that narrow rpm powerband.

Now, you could put in the stroker crank and get the extra torque of the 612cc, but then you have  compounded the piston speed issues, and your rev limits get lower. Also, trying to feed the extra 100cc's requires wilder cams with higher lifts which stresses the valve train components even more. Your clutch isn't going to take this power level, so you can figure in another $900 for the racing clutch and belt-drive primary. Stock rear wheel spokes have been known to snap with this level of mods, so a hotrodded rear wheel build with racing rim and spokes would be a good idea. Just another $500.
Ya wanna be able to drag that horse down to a stop? Well, the disc brake kit and wheel are available for just another $500.

You're going to end up with about a $12k Bullet, because that's where all the rest of us wound up when doing it. No hope of re-selling it for anywhere near what it's worth, so you had better like it when it's done.

Are you sure you want to go down this road? You could buy an aircooled Sport-Desmo Ducati 1000cc twin for the same $12k that you're gonna spend.

The other option is to do a pipe and carb and air filter, and be satisfied with hp in the mid 20s, good torque and streetability, and the limitations that everyone else is riding Bullets with. That's the cost effective option.
And believe it or not, most people, including myself, have found that a Bullet with a pipe, and air filter change is a quite nice bike to ride that is as enjoyable as anything else we've ridden over the last 40 years that we've owned bikes.
A Bullet isn't really about trying to make everything a "blur" between Point A and Point B. A Bullet is about enjoying all the ride between Point A and Point B. You don't even really want to get to Point B, because then you have to get off the bike.