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Author Topic: Ongoing Electrical Issues  (Read 1983 times)

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Superchuck

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Reply #30 on: August 20, 2018, 11:49:50 am
Hey Tooseevee,

I really appreciate the offer, but I think I'm backing down from wanting to replace the TCI.  I'm on vacation next week, so I won't be able to get to work on the bike for a couple weekends anyway.  I'll do my homework and read-up on ignition system stuff in the meantime, then order the other parts.

If after that's all together I'm still having issues then we can see if your black TCI does the trick, but I don't want to go through the trouble of mailing it back-and-forth, etc.  That said, I'm wondering if the local dealer has any old ones laying around that they'll give me for some pocket change...

Who knows.

Many thanks, and I will be in touch!
Chuck


Arizoni

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Reply #31 on: August 20, 2018, 01:23:05 pm
That "keeping the piston from causing the crankshaft to reverse directions" that the green TCI does is there to keep the engine from breaking the sprag clutch.
If the engine fires backwards the clutch will lock up and try to accelerate the electric starter motor and the gear train that connects it and overload the clutch.

If it were mine, I wouldn't be to anxious to change it back to the original black TCI that caused all of the problems.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


tooseevee

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Reply #32 on: August 20, 2018, 02:45:52 pm
That "keeping the piston from causing the crankshaft to reverse directions" that the green TCI does is there to keep the engine from breaking the sprag clutch.
If the engine fires backwards the clutch will lock up and try to accelerate the electric starter motor and the gear train that connects it and overload the clutch.

If it were mine, I wouldn't be to anxious to change it back to the original black TCI that caused all of the problems.

      As I said, it was only a loan to see if it would run better than with the green (or if it wouldn't start at all to see if it would start with the black one). The intent was never to replace the green with the black. You'd never wanta go back to the black.

   (Sounds like AC/DC lyrics) :) :o

        I'm predicting, when he gets everything else right, that the Green TCI he has is fine.
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


Superchuck

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Reply #33 on: August 20, 2018, 04:35:43 pm
Yep, fingers crossed! 

It'll be a few weeks until I can troubleshoot some more, but I'll probably check in with some additional questions in the meantime.

Thanks all again,
Chuck


Mick Bailey

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Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 03:30:27 am
The only difference between the green and the black is that the green one deletes the 1st spark in the rotation sequence to prevent that first early spark from blowing the piston back down before the engine is rotating good enough either by foot or electric.

To further expand on how the green TCI works differently to the black; the green unit gets the first timing pulse as a reference and then times how long the next pulse takes to arrive. The unit then calculates the interval between the two to establish the rotational speed and therefore the advance. Because the ignition pickup is so far physically advanced (about 45 degrees) the TCI has ample time to calculate and generate the spark and factor in the dwell. So it always has to receive two timing pulses (one crank rotation) before being able to calculate the spark. There's also a timer function that resets the procedure to ensure that if there's an excessive delay between two pulses this isn't used to generate a spurious spark. You need this (say) between efforts to start the bike - kicking it over for example and taking a breath.

The black unit gets a timing pulse and then (at cranking speeds) assumes a preset rotational speed and generates a spark a certain time after receiving the first pulse. This is fine if the bike always cranks at the same speed but if it's slow for any reason (e.g. low battery, lazy kick-over) the spark is generated too early and can cause the engine to backfire.

In some ways the black TCI could be an advantage when kicking the bike over, so long as the bike is kicked enthusiastically (like I could have done 30 years ago). In effect, the faster you kick the more retarded the first spark.

Once running the black TCI calculates rotational speed just like the green unit and both revert to an inbuilt advance curve which I cant tell apart. Neither gives a very good curve and is insufficiently advanced at full  advance, which reduces power. I wonder if this is to ensure that the exhaust temperature is maintained to keep the hot-tube 'catalyst' working?


Superchuck

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Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 07:12:45 am
Very interesting!  Does that also mean that a slow deliberate kick-over might be better for the green TCI, as opposed to a fast one?


Superchuck

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Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 09:41:34 am
Tooseevee,

I just re-read the old thread where you decided to get the petronix: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,24417.0/all.html

Were you correct that the brown wire got attached to the positive pole in the petronix coil, and the red/white got attached to the neg?

Also, am I correct that the HT lead you are using has a resistorless cap and a copper core, and you're using the BR9ES resistor spark plug?  I think I will search for a high quality black HT cable instead of the yellow, although that is pretty sharp.

I have an email request in to Baker for the ignition switch.

Question:. Is there any risk of me getting a stronger battery (12v, 9ah) that possibly the bike wouldn't be able to properly keep it charged?  Or is that a non issue?

Thanks again and apologies for my naivete.

Chuck


tooseevee

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Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 12:27:59 pm
Tooseevee,

I just re-read the old thread where you decided to get the petronix: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,24417.0/all.html

Were you correct that the brown wire got attached to the positive pole in the petronix coil, and the red/white got attached to the neg?

Also, am I correct that the HT lead you are using has a resistorless cap and a copper core, and you're using the BR9ES resistor spark plug?  I think I will search for a high quality black HT cable instead of the yellow, although that is pretty sharp.

I have an email request in to Baker for the ignition switch.

Question:. Is there any risk of me getting a stronger battery (12v, 9ah) that possibly the bike wouldn't be able to properly keep it charged?  Or is that a non issue?

Thanks again and apologies for my naivete.

Chuck

       Boy, you went back in cobwebs, huh? Remember not to take any one thing at face value in those old threads. My story goes back to 2010 and a lot of things happened and things changed, etc., etc..

     Yes, Brown to Positive. It has a fuse. I believe it gets its 12VPos from the Kill Switch. Unlike my harley whose Kill Switch ran the points to Ground, the RE KS just shuts the juice off to the whole shootin' match. Whatever works :) :)

      Yes, Resistorless cap.

      No use NGK no mo'. I changed to a Champion plug (RN2C). You can go back and read THAT story if you want.

       Your alternator will charge the bigger battery just fine. But always use the tender also.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 12:43:08 pm by tooseevee »
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


Superchuck

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Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 12:37:15 pm
Thank you,

And did you mean to say brown to positive?


tooseevee

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Reply #39 on: August 21, 2018, 01:38:18 pm
Thank you,

And did you mean to say brown to positive?

     You must have read it about three seconds before I hit Modify to correct it. Just a brain fart.
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


Mick Bailey

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Reply #40 on: August 21, 2018, 03:40:16 pm
Very interesting!  Does that also mean that a slow deliberate kick-over might be better for the green TCI, as opposed to a fast one?

The green TCI will always calculate the timing from the rotational speed. So long as the interval between two pulses in not so long that the unit times out, then it will always spark at the same point BTDC whether kicking slow or fast.  If the kick is insufficiently energetic then a number of things happen to inhibit effective starting;

1. There can be insufficient velocity through the carb to atomize the fuel, resulting in a lean mixture and incomplete filling of the combustion chamber.
2. Gas leakage past rings and valves can reduce the effective compression.
3. There can be insufficient inertia to overcome the static advance, causing backfiring. This is worsened with some engines because they can have far too much advance. My own engine has 8 degrees from the TCI , plus two degrees of error off the pickup location. For a 500 single 10 degrees is quite a bit of advance. 


Superchuck

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Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 12:29:28 pm
Cool, thanks!  I love this forum.  I am continually becoming more learned.

I called my local RE dealer, and they don't have any AVL parts what-so-ever at their location.  I'm still waiting for Baker in Ft Worth to email me back, but I was wondering if anyone else has had experience fitting a 3rd party ignition switch in an AVL?

The local RE guy said they've been routinely discontinuing AVL parts since it was kinda the redheaded stepchild of the RE lineup.  He also said they'll probably sell it as an entire 'lock kit' containing all side boxes, steering lock, ignition lock.

You see, I really only want the ignition switch.  Wondering if it is somewhat universal?

Thanks in advance... can't wait to get this thing running again.

Chuck


Mick Bailey

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Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 05:14:11 pm
Did you take a look at ordering from India?

Aside from that you may find a generic switch that could fit, given the simple switching arrangement. I don't know of anything offhand but would start by measuring up the switch and checking if there were any 'universal' ignition switches that match.

Don't kow if this is anywhere near, but it turned up straight away;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/12v-Volt-Universal-Ignition-Switch-With-2-Keys-Lucas-Style-Spb501-Equivalent/15017009018?iid=130873090170&chn=ps


heloego

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Reply #43 on: August 23, 2018, 06:36:50 am
Do an e-bay search for "Royal Enfield Ignition Switch" and you'll get the following:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=ROyal+Enfield+Ignition+Switch&_sacat=0
It's up to you if you want to go with a matched set for the ignition/tool boxes/steering lock, or only the ignition switch.
Keep in mind that parts ordered from India can take as much as a month to get to you. Ones from Brit vendors are much faster, but usually a bit more expensive (and usually worth the speedier delivery).
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Superchuck

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Reply #44 on: August 23, 2018, 09:48:41 am
Great, thanks guys!  I'm still hoping Baker in Fort Worth will get back to me...

If I'm waiting for a lengthy international delivery I can always bypass the ignition switch and wire in a hidden cutoff along the positive lead near the battery.  That's if I'm getting desperate...