Author Topic: Modification/improvement of the Carberry plate (Read 12679 times)

2bikebill · **on:** July 04, 2018, 03:29:45 pm

After noticing an unpleasant tingle in the RH foot peg which wasn't there before fitting the Carberry plate, I felt the need for further comparison. So I replaced the old plate and went for a ride. No tingle, but now I could confirm the Carberry smoothed out the ride at higher rpm, so decided to refit it.

Back in the shed, off with the side cover again. I noticed two things - one of the shims between the cams and the plate was missing, and there was scoring on the corresponding machined surface of the plate caused by the surface of the cam rotating against it.
This got me wondering just how tight against the cams the plate is. If it's actually pressing against them then something may be under undue stress. Even more with the shims on.

While I waited for the new shims to arrive from Mr Hitchcock, I measured the machined surfaces of both plates, and found that those on the Carberry are .5mm thicker than the original plate.
I measured the thickness at the three holes where the fixing bolts go. Worryingly, on the Carberry, only the bottom one was .5mm thicker to compensate. The two at the top were the same thickness as the original plate.
I didn’t like this at all, and decided to refit the plate with .5mm shim washers behind at the top bolt holes. Where the hell do you find such things? The local engineering shop couldn’t help, but then I had a brainwave. I drilled two 6mm (size of the bolts) holes through an old .5mm feeler gauge, then cut it into two small square washers.

(I now know a feeler gauge is made of hardened steel and is very hard to drill through. Lots of smoke, a knackered drill bit, and a dodgy moment when the drill goes through and snatches the gauge out of your hand. Easy to hacksaw though.)

Reassembled it all, went for a ten mile spin. Noticeably less tingle through the foot peg at low to mid rpm, and feels pretty smooth all over at just over 4000rpm. A general improvement I'd say.

I know RE supply parts to Carberry for the big twin, and I'm guessing these Carberry plates are knocked out in the RE factory too, probably with the same degree of variation between samples as with the bikes. Half a mm isn't a lot I suppose, but it must affect how the bearing seats. I'd expect a bit more precision.

I'm still slightly bothered about the amount of pressure from the plate against the cams. I might have another look in there after a couple hundred miles and see how it's looking. Maybe another shim behind the fixing points.

p.s. just discovered I can buy disc brake caliper shim washers from the bicycle shop. Bag of ten .25mm with 6.4mm ID. Cheaper than a new drill bit!

Blairio · **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2018, 03:59:58 am

Interesting information, thank you. If the Carberry plate is not sitting square to the crankshaft, then intuitively the new bearing it hosts will have an off-axial load placed on it.

However, thinking again about what you have written - If the machined face of the Anti Vibration Plate which faces the gear cams is absolutely flat, does it matter how thick its metal is where each of its three retaining bolts passes through?

The cam gear shims are just that - shims, rather than thrust washers, so I would not expect the Carberry plate to be pressing hard against them. No more than at the original plate should have been. I will have to rely on folk with better engineering 'chops' than mine to say whether this is the case, though.

Blair edit - against the possibility that I will need to shim any of the three mounting points of the Carberry plate I have ordered a pack of ten cycle disc brake calliper shim washers (.25mm thick with 6.4mm ID), for the princely sum of 1.22 GBP. If they are not required I can always use them for my bicycle's disk brakes!

wildbill · **Reply #2 on:** July 05, 2018, 04:04:55 am

I fitted the new vibration plate with the old shims from the stock unit and don't recall any lower peg vibration issues. could be putting the shims back on saved this drama.
best thing in your case would be that power plug to the rotor would be very easy to remove compared to the one I broke on the euro4 unit...lol

2bikebill · **Reply #3 on:** July 05, 2018, 09:24:22 am

It seems logical that if the surface of the plate against the cams is thicker - further forward - than the surface at the fixing points, then the plate is being pulled against the cams, rather than just resting up against them. This does assume of course that the cams and the casing are level.
That the plate was pressing against the cams is evident by the scoring on the plate against the exhaust cam where the shim was missing. It's uneven, suggesting the surface of the plate isn't quite flat. Pic attached.
I might not be able to resist another look in there after a few hundred miles to inspect the shim for damage on that side.

Don't know whether replacing the missing cam shim, or shimming the fixing points, was responsible for the reduction in foot peg tingle, probably both. All three fixing points are now even, so the plate is sitting better, albeit by a very small amount.
If there'e evidence of pressure against the cams next time I look, I'll add shims to the fixing points.

Bottom line, I know it's an Enfield - precision engineering it aint. It's still my favourite ride after 8 years.

wildbill · **Reply #4 on:** July 05, 2018, 01:51:37 pm

i think any move is worth a try and if you don't try - you'll never know. will be interesting to see how it pans out. unfortunately I have nothing to ride away but that will turn more positive in a month or so

2bikebill · **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2018, 03:16:04 pm

I'm looking at your list of Enfields.

Nothing to ride ?!

Rattlebattle · **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2018, 05:26:19 pm

Interesting. Someone here in the UK had a ticking noise after installing the CVR plate. He refitted it sans shims on the cams - ticking noise gone. All the videos show the shims being replaced. I did this with no issues but then again my footrests both vibrated before and still do, though there are varying calm patches according to engine load. Weird.

Blairio · **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2018, 07:37:46 pm

My theory is that with the original plate in place, the shims are intended to restrict end float of the can gears. With the Carberry plate they should perform the same function. Are we basically saying here that the machining of the Carberry plate is off?

2bikebill · **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2018, 07:58:27 pm

Yes, the plate restricts cam end-float, and the shims prevent friction of the cams directly against the plate. The plate & shims just need to rest against the cams. They shouldn't press on them. The scoring on my Carberry plate suggests just that - there is pressure against the cams, or at least against the exhaust cam. This wasn't apparent on the original plate.
Shimming between the plate and the casing at the bolt holes will alleviate this, bringing the plate out away from the cams. As I said, the top fixing points on my plate aren't level with the flat surfaces which contact the cams, nor with the bottom fixing, pulling the plate tighter onto the cams. The surface against the exhaust cam isn't even flat, as evidenced by the one-sided scoring.
It may not matter at all, but it seems to me that applying end pressure onto the cam shafts isn't a good thing. But now I know it's happening, I feel compelled to fix it.
Yours may be fine. These are RE parts, and RE parts vary. On mine, the Carberry logo has been graunched and melted in the casting process, and the machined surfaces and fixing points vary slightly. They may well be within spec, but the fact is the plate presses against the cams enough to have scored a groove into the plate.

Boxerman · **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2018, 08:35:45 pm

Quote from: Rattlebattle on July 05, 2018, 05:26:19 pm

Interesting. Someone here in the UK had a ticking noise after installing the CVR plate. He refitted it sans shims on the cams - ticking noise gone.

That was me. I measured the length of the 3 'legs' and found them to be shorter than on my original plate.

2bikebill · **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2018, 09:13:43 pm

I'm surprised it made a difference. Those shims are only 0.1mm thick.
I'd say best left in place to reduce friction between cams and plate.

Boxerman · **Reply #11 on:** July 05, 2018, 09:33:42 pm

The legs were 0.16mm shorter than the originals, therefore bringing the plate that much closer to the cam.
With the shims it clicked. Without the shims it doesn't.

2bikebill · **Reply #12 on:** July 05, 2018, 09:39:24 pm

Were the machined surfaces also 0.16mm thinner than the originals? In which case the plate should be no tighter against the cams.
On mine, the surfaces were thicker, but so was the lower leg. I shimmed the top two to even it up.

Boxerman · **Reply #13 on:** July 05, 2018, 10:20:22 pm

Quote from: WillW on July 05, 2018, 09:39:24 pm

Were the machined surfaces also 0.16mm thinner than the originals? In which case the plate should be no tighter against the cams.
On mine, the surfaces were thicker, but so was the lower leg. I shimmed the top two to even it up.

I did not measure the thickness of the plate. I measured the 'stand off' or 'clearance' distance - it was 0.16mm less than on the original plate.
To be honest Bud, I don't care whether you believe me or not. I have nothing to gain by telling lies so I don't know what your problem is.
I'm new to this forum but I am not new to working on machinery.

2bikebill · **Reply #14 on:** July 05, 2018, 10:36:48 pm

Did I say I didn't believe you? I merely asked if the clearance distance was the same at the legs and the contact surfaces. If the legs and the contact surfaces are equally different from the original plate, then there is no difference in clearance.
Why the hostility? It's a friendly forum. Always has been.

Jako · **Reply #15 on:** July 05, 2018, 10:49:45 pm

This is exactly why I haven't purchased the plate, although I like the idea, I feared the machining might not be accurate enough for the application , specially when I seen the dowels need to be removed for alignment.

2bikebill · **Reply #16 on:** July 05, 2018, 11:02:28 pm

The extra support of the crankshaft it provides seems like a good idea on its own. If it reduces vibration it's a bonus. As long as all the points mentioned measure the same it ought to be fine. As said, it can always be shimmed out a bit to avoid any pressure on the cams.
Always a bit hit & miss with RE parts, but I still think it's a worthwhile add on.

wildbill · **Reply #17 on:** July 06, 2018, 02:04:36 am

all I can say for the $90 outlay I think I got my $$$ worth. ………...so its worth a try

Blairio · **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2018, 03:11:02 am

I think there is enough information to take back to Carberry and raise the question with them. I am an engineer (albeit a software one!), and when faced with a situation like this, we begin with a Problem Statement.

1. It seems that (at least) some Carberry plates are machined differently to the original plates, such that pressure is being applied through the cam gear shims and onto the cam gears themselves.

Also

2. It seems that (at least) some examples of the Carberry plates are machined such that they don't sit exactly square to the crankshaft.

The original design has the cam gear shims serving two purposes:

a. to prevent the cam gears grinding directly on the end plate
b. to reduce end-float of the cam gears

Therefore in removing the shims, are we not trying to cure a fault with a fault?

On point 2 above - that (at least) some examples of the Carberry plates are machined such that they don't sit square to the crankshaft), the answer appears to be shimming the plate itself between the crankcase and the three 'bosses' the the plate's retaining bolts pass through - with different amounts of shimming at each boss. This shimming could correct the plate being off axis with the crankshaft.

In fact, this shimming could address both points above.

Can we assume that the machining for the new bearing is correct, if it is off in other areas?

Perhaps we could come up with figures that show the difference in the machining between the original retaining plate and the Carberry one. If these figures are consistent across examples, then there is a 'batch' machining issue. If they vary, then there is a quality / consistency issue.

I read somewhere that earlier Carberry plates were re-machined from original plates, to take the new bearing. Are these ok? Is it just the anti-vibration plates Carberry manufactures from scratch that are problematic here?

Questions, questions.

2bikebill · **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2018, 08:06:26 am

Well I'm certainly going to let Hitchcocks know. I'll get an email off to them today, with all the info & a pic of the scoring on the plate. If they then get onto Carberry, it may actually have an effect.
If they get back to me, I'll pass it on here.

Rattlebattle · **Reply #20 on:** July 06, 2018, 11:59:49 am

My initial thought when reading about the Carberry VR plate was that it's snake oil. Presumably a lot of thought went into the original design of the UCE (and IIRC it wasn't an Indian design). I have always maintained that the degree of vibration is affected by how well, (or badly as often seems to be the case) the engine is assembled at the factory. Wildbill can confirm how much they differ. To me the proper answer is this: If you have an engine that is pretty smooth and has no real issues, leave it alone. The bottom end has a pretty good reputation for longevity. If, like me, you have a real shaker stop p*ssing around with miracle cures and get the engine rebuilt properly so that you then have a smooth engine. I wish I hadn't bothered with the Carberry. It can stay there as mine doesn't interfere with the cam clearance, but really I cannot recommend them. I think it's an answer to a question nobody actually asked ie where is the evidence that the supposed crank overhang affects the life of the timing side main bearing? Just saying. we all have views on this and that's fine.

2bikebill · **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:17:21 pm

Fair points. I have wondered in my more cynical moments whether the Carberry plate is really just a way of raising funds for the main Carberry business of building motorbikes...
Good wheeze.
Just speculating here you understand....

Blairio · **Reply #22 on:** July 06, 2018, 12:49:13 pm

I have just had a look at my Carberry plate and measured the height of the three boss's the bolts pass through, off the machined surface the cam gears (and their shims) will sit against. It is 2mm in each case, so generally machining on my plate looks to be correct - or at least even! I won't know what the same measurement is on the current plate until I remove it. Hopefully it will be the same. if it is more, then I have some .25mm stainless steel disk brake shims on order. I'll compensate with those.

2bikebill · **Reply #23 on:** July 06, 2018, 01:25:12 pm

Good to hear.
I've just sent a detailed email to Hitchcocks. Looking forward to hearing their thoughts.

Have you seen the vid of Paul Carberry fitting the plate? As he's fitting the bearing to the shaft, he says "this one's good". Infer what you will...

Rattlebattle · **Reply #24 on:** July 06, 2018, 04:01:37 pm

Hmm. Is it just me or does he look a bit shifty? Never seems to look directly into the camera...

2bikebill · **Reply #25 on:** July 06, 2018, 07:50:39 pm

I've had a reply from Allan at Hitchcocks, who has asked me to return the plate for inspection, with a view to resolving the problem. He's forwarded a copy of my letter to the manufacturers for their comments.

He also says - The plate is something we have been testing on our own bike for some time with positive results. Obviously, the plate should not be “clamping” up against the cams when tightened and the cams should always have a small amount of end float present.

I'll update as & when...

Blairio · **Reply #26 on:** July 07, 2018, 05:58:56 am

Quote from: WillW on July 06, 2018, 07:50:39 pm

I've had a reply from Allan at Hitchcocks, who has asked me to return the plate for inspection, with a view to resolving the problem. He's forwarded a copy of my letter to the manufacturers for their comments.

He also says - The plate is something we have been testing on our own bike for some time with positive results. Obviously, the plate should not be “clamping” up against the cams when tightened and the cams should always have a small amount of end float present.

I'll update as & when...

That is good progress, and re-enforces the thinking that the cam gear shims should remain in place when the new plate is fitted. On the original plate did you measure the distance from the machined surface (the one facing the cam gears) to the surface of the boss's the mounting bolts run through? If so, was it 2mm?

Cheers,

Blairio

2bikebill · **Reply #27 on:** July 07, 2018, 07:34:46 am

Just measured it, yes it's 2mm.
On the larger surface, the exhaust cam side where the shim was missing, there is light scoring indicating the original plate was also hard up against the cams. It's not as deep as the scoring on the Carberry plate, and is even, so at least the old one is flat.
And yes, without the shims it's grinding metal in there!
I do have Hitchcocks performance cams fitted, it's possible they may vary by a couple of thou from the stock cams, but unlikely I think. Might be worth shimming behind the bolts just to be sure.
I'll be taking the Carberry off yet again this weekend for posting to Mr H. I can do the job blindfolded by now... Gasket's holding up well

ace.cafe · **Reply #28 on:** July 07, 2018, 12:49:31 pm

I am wondering if perhaps the large ignition wheel is off balance or something like that?

If the crank runs true, there should be no need for any outboard bearing. But if that large ignition wheel is off balance, that could induce an issue.

Anyone looked into that?

2bikebill · **Reply #29 on:** July 07, 2018, 02:47:27 pm

It's a thought, and could account for some bikes being shakier than others I guess. Mine doesn't shake much at all, I just liked the idea of the extra support on the crank - thinking about that heavy forged 535 piston in there.
It's just had a new big end and con rod too, so I'm pretty sure everything's sound in there otherwise.
It's more that I just like fettling my bike - RE is the kind of bike that encourages it don't you think? I never touch the Guzzi, except the basic maintenance

Because I took the Carberry plate off to compare the ride to the original plate, I discovered it was pressing against the cams - then it became an interesting project to put things right.

Hey, I retired from the working life last year, and football bores the arse off me. What else am I going to do...

Blairio · **Reply #30 on:** July 09, 2018, 05:32:05 am

Quote from: WillW on July 07, 2018, 02:47:27 pm

Hey, I retired from the working life last year, and football bores the arse off me. What else am I going to do...

While researching part for my mountain bike I came across a review & build of an 80cc 2-stroke engine kit for a bicycle. It was about 95 GBP, and came with everything - engine, carb, exhaust, fuel tank, ignition system, chain, rear sprocket, control, chainguard, all mounting brackets - the lot! All you need is a strong adult sized donor cycle. The result is a single speed motor-cycle that does around 25-30mph, and looks a hoot. That would be an interesting project, though not road legal within the uk, alas. Check out:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/80cc-2-Stroke-Cycle-Petrol-Gas-Motor-Engine-Kit-for-Motorised-Bicycle-Motorized-/282911460844

There are various videos showing fitting the kit to a bike, and nothing looks too hard....

gizzo · **Reply #31 on:** July 09, 2018, 11:07:01 am

There are tons of those things around here. The ferals get one once they've lost their licence for driving drunk or on ice. They seem to go ok and they're noisy and stinky to boot. They get along ok. Not really legal here either, but once you have nothing to lose, what the hey?

2bikebill · **Reply #32 on:** July 09, 2018, 11:56:55 am

Looks like a lot of fun & madness

But I like my bike with the pedals on - I bought it for the exercise

Bmadd34 · **Reply #33 on:** July 09, 2018, 12:43:32 pm

I found this one for $50+free shipping to boot. I started thinking, what if one were to fit one of these onto say a 30 speed bike? Top speed somewhere near 50-60mph?

Blairio · **Reply #34 on:** July 09, 2018, 01:11:21 pm

Quote from: Bmadd34 on July 09, 2018, 12:43:32 pm

I found this one for $50+free shipping to boot. I started thinking, what if one were to fit one of these onto say a 30 speed bike? Top speed somewhere near 50-60mph?

The kits I have seen have their own rear wheel sprocket bolted up to plates behind the spokes on the LHS of the rear wheel, so the original cycle drive train is unaffected. You will get one engine speed - crank speed. I guess you could still pedal the bike with the clutch disengaged, but heaven knows what the weight and drag of the engine gubbins would do to your cycling experience. Also, if Like me you are prone to the odd 'off' when mountain biking, you probably don't want a litre of so of fuel in a tin can strapped to the top tube, bashing of rocks and causing the odd spark....

Some year ago there was a velosolex 2 stroke kit that drove the front wheel of a bicycle via a rubber roller. it was far less invasive than the variant I provided a link to - and probably better engineered too.

2bikebill · **Reply #35 on:** July 09, 2018, 01:47:44 pm

Used to see a lot of those (or similar - same principle) in France. Tiny motor over the wheel. Always thought it was a great idea.

Richard230 · **Reply #36 on:** July 09, 2018, 02:06:02 pm

Sears Roebuck used to sell those bicycle motor kits through their catalog. The were cheap and easy to install. You bolted them to the handlebars and they rested on the front wheel and powered it with a friction wheel that turned the bike's front wheel by spinning its little wheel against the big bicycle wheel. I think it had a lever that would raise the motor assembly off of the tire when you wanted less drag, but the same weight. Seemed to me not to be the most efficient system, but no doubt they were easy to install and operate. However, they probably didn't add much to the push-bike riding experience.

dickim · **Reply #37 on:** July 09, 2018, 02:23:53 pm

Nothing is never really NEW - 50 years ago in France saw the motor in a basket above front wheel, just lower onto wheel to start and then assist

longstrokeclassic · **Reply #38 on:** July 10, 2018, 10:31:31 pm

Just watched Paul carberry fitting one of these to the UCE engine. He uses a drift to securely seat the inner bearing race onto the shaft before fitting the plate. Very interesting to see the before and after results measured with his equipment.

2bikebill · **Reply #39 on:** July 17, 2018, 08:52:55 am

To those who are interested, the issue with my Carberry plate has been resolved. Dan at Hitchcocks really went the extra mile with this.
From his email -

you mention that there was a 0.5mm discrepancy in the thickness of the plate where it mounts to your engine. All though I can see where you're coming from, this thickness does not have any relevance to the cam faces, mounting points or bearing and is only the outside face of the plate, if this is a final operation in machining it will not have any importance other than to finish the plate as opposed to leaving the rough casting and should not be used as any sort of reference.

Fair comment, but I don't think the surfaces on the machined side were level.

I test fitted the plate you sent back onto an engine we had here and found that the cams were free to move on their axis with a shim fitted and were not running tight. I wondered whether we are seeing a number of small differences in tolerances between the engine I have here and your engine, which has then resulted in a tight fit for the camshafts on your engine. It’s important that a shim is refitted after the cam so that the end of the plate does not get scored by the cam. Because this had happened on your bike, it could be seen that the cam faces were not completely parallel to the three mounting faces or, all though less likely, the opposing side on the crankcase you have is not 100% square to the cam spindles.
In order for us to understand this problem better, we have taken a new plate from stock, measured the position of the bearing and spot faced three reference points to mount on podiums, then surface ground the three mounting faces and the cam faces so that they are 100% accurate and in line to one another. As you were having an issue with the cams running tight we ground an additional 0.005” off of the cam faces to give you this as an additional clearance, so that hopefully the cams can be fitted with shims and not run tight.

I fitted the new plate at the weekend (without shimming at the fixing points as previously planned) and have taken the bike out for a couple of test rides. I immediately noticed the difference - the tingle through the RH foot peg which the previous plate increased (with & without the shims) has greatly reduced (really not noticeable at all) and overall it is definitely a smoother ride - even at normal cruising range of 3000 - 3500 rpm where before it was slightly worse than with the stock plate. I didn't hammer the bike, but a brief blast up to 75mph along the dual carriageway was definitely more comfortable than previous fast rides along the same stretch. And the mirrors are useable throughout the range..!

Took a bit of fettling, but IMO definitely a worthwhile upgrade, both for the support of the crank overhang, and for a smoother ride all over. It's always going to be a big single of course, but it needn't shake your teeth out

Dan also wrote -

Just as a side note, I could see the deformed “Carberry” logo which has happened in the casting process on the plate you had as well as a number of other finishes on the plate which let it down, all though these should not affect the function of the plate, as you said, it does not inspire confidence in a high precision product. I have passed on your thoughts as well mine to Carberry with the addition of some photos, more so for a hope of improvement in the future.

Yep, good idea. Consistency & quality control in Royal Enfield world - imagine!

Full kudos to Hitchcocks for going above and beyond the call of duty.

Blairio · **Reply #40 on:** July 17, 2018, 07:30:52 pm

Yes, Hitchcocks operate the way we would like all service suppliers to operate, though alas it isn't always the case.

I am looking forward to fitting my anti-vibration plate (along with the annual oil Change) in a couple of weeks, though my bike first has to get through its annual MOT test. I take my Electra to Victor Devine Motorcycles, here in Glasgow (Scotland). They understand bikes like my Enfield, and make sure the bike is roadworthy without getting their knickers in a twist about my non-standard exhaust....

2bikebill · **Reply #41 on:** July 17, 2018, 09:48:09 pm

An old school bike garage is good to find. I take mine for its MOT to a local father & son outfit who don't get silly about my goldstar exhaust - or about it not really being 500cc any more, but do give it a proper going over for the things that matter. Always some interesting bikes at their place, they're the go-to blokes round these parts for engine work. Recently put in a new big end & con rod for me. The engine was gleaming when I picked the bike up. Proper job.

gashousegorilla · **Reply #42 on:** July 18, 2018, 02:32:32 am

Good info with all of this Will. Thanks. I ordered one my self and will have a close look see at it after reading this.

Rattlebattle · **Reply #43 on:** July 18, 2018, 09:14:05 am

Thanks for taking this up; happy to leave mine in place.

2bikebill · **Reply #44 on:** July 18, 2018, 07:00:20 pm

Hopefully mine was the exception and the rest are good. It even looked wrong, the Carberry logo was half melted in the casting, and the machined surfaces, compared to the re-engineered one from Hitchcocks, looked pretty crappy too. Quality control chucked it in the wrong bin I reckon

Blairio · **Reply #45 on:** July 27, 2018, 06:23:14 pm

I finally got round to fitting my Carberry anti-vibe plate today. The process went smoothly. and the machining appears to be spot-on. I kicked the engine ovet and everything turned smoothly, however I ran out of time before I could replenish the engine oil, so that and a run will need to wait until tomorrow. Patience is indeed a virtue.

The latest issue of Classic Bike Guide has a really good article on Caberry and the second version of his lovely v-twin.

gashousegorilla · **Reply #46 on:** July 28, 2018, 01:21:47 am

Just got mine delivered... I haven't yet compared it to the stock plate. But the three legs or stand off's on the Carburry plate all measure within a couple/few thous.( Luckily) of each other. Lets call it .420-.422 "

And reading through this with the exhaust Cam scoring Will. YES , the exhaust cam gear WILL want to try and walk it's way off the end of the spindle on these bikes without the plate on . I have noticed over the years. It's rotating counter clockwise, and the dimples on the on the bushing inside the cam gear, will catch a bit onto the grooves of the eccentric spindles. Not with a lot of force at all when spinning the motor over... but they will still try to come off. But at HIGHER rpm's ... it's trying to really drive that exhaust cam gear into the cam plate ! So one HAS to have a shim between the cam gear and the cam plate, or it IS going to wear the shit out of the side of the cam gear !

Also I have noticed, that if the cam lash is set at the looser side of things. The exhaust cam gear is going to be more prone to " walking off" that spindle towards the cam plate. But either with the cam lash set a bit loose or tight, the shim will protect it. Anyways...

BTW, one can ... JUDICIOUSLY !... and carefully , drill out a good ounce of weight from that stock rotor. It may not seem like much ? But as the rpms go UP and the loads increase, it will make a difference.

2bikebill · **Reply #47 on:** July 28, 2018, 08:46:03 am

Blair & Dan, please post your impressions of the ride with the Carberry plate fitted.
I'm more & more convinced I got the friday plate. It even looked crappy.
Thanks for the info Dan, borne out by the heavy scoring on the exhaust side of the Carberry plate when the shim was inadvertently left off. (I'd still like to know where it went - never been found.)
Interesting thought about reducing weight on the rotor. I might ask you about that later on. It wont be this summer - I've had enough of fettling for a while and have a strong preference for RIDING the new improved beast while this rare and glorious English summer continues..

Can't believe people are whingeing about it - we all know sooner or later it's going to rain, and rain, and rain, and rain....

gashousegorilla · **Reply #48 on:** July 29, 2018, 01:54:38 am

Hahaha ! Yeah... I hear you guys on them islands a little to the east are having one of our summers. And that washer may never have been there or missed the last time the motor was apart. It's an easy thing to miss if one is not thinking about it when they take it apart or put it back together. They tend to stick to the back of the cam plate when you take it off and they go unnoticed. Then they get lost in the shuffle of things.

But yeah, I agree . I think you just got one of the "seconds" sent to you. I'll let you know how I do..

Blairio · **Reply #49 on:** July 31, 2018, 12:00:19 pm

I finally got round to testing my carberry anti-vibe plate the morning, and the results are impressive. Significantly reduced vibration at 30 in 4th, and 40-50 in top, but traffic and needing to start work prevented me exploring faster than that. I'll report back once I have had a chance to take my Electra on faster roads.

Blairio · **Reply #50 on:** August 05, 2018, 06:08:17 pm

This afternoon I went for a spin on my electra, taking in faster A roads and dual carriageways. As a result, I would characterise the Carberry anti-vibe plate as a definite improvement, but an incremental one rather than anything radical. it didn't turn my Electra into a turbine smooth Kawasaki KH500 (now that would have been a transformation!). I found the most notable improvement was at lower revs (30-40mph in 4th, 40-50mph in top) and also at tickover. There may have been fewer vibes at 65mph or so, but I honestly could not swear to it.

I think it was worth the money, and the time spent fitting. I certainly won't be taking it off again.

Blairio

2bikebill · **Reply #51 on:** August 05, 2018, 06:26:38 pm

I'd agree. It's a noticeable improvement, but nothing radical. I'm finding improvement at normal cruising speed - 55 to 60mph, and noticeably less vibration at occasional 70/75mph on dual carriageway. It's a better ride with it than without it.

gashousegorilla · **Reply #52 on:** August 07, 2018, 02:26:36 am

Alright... just finished up the 540 motor ( which is a MONSTER!

) , but will need a little tuning and timing adjustment . The crank HAS been re-done , lighted and trued. And I put this plate in before I buttoned up the right side and after re-phasing the Hot Rod cams for the longer rod. I DO like the idea of the extra support on the timing side of the shaft, and that is the main reason why I put it in. I think that needle bearing on the timing side of the crank DOES take a beating there all on it's own . So on a quick test ride ... without flogging the bike to much , hit 6500 rpm's once or twice ?

I would say the motor feels a little smoother then before ... Like you guys have found , nothing radical. But a little better. Now is that the new crank or the plate ? Not sure. But the vibs for me, were no were near unbearable before either. So... I would say it is worth it for the small reduction in vib-age. And definitely worth it for the extra support on the crank... IMHO.

2bikebill · **Reply #53 on:** August 07, 2018, 08:20:16 am

Glad it's back on the road. Sounds like some interesting engine mods. 6500 rpm - blimey - my tacho only goes up to 6000

The extra crank support has to be a good idea I reckon. If the ride's smoother it's a bonus.
Good good good, good vibrations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eab_beh07HU

gashousegorilla · **Reply #54 on:** August 07, 2018, 08:38:20 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJiiBEn4P1U

2bikebill · **Reply #55 on:** August 08, 2018, 07:54:40 am

Carlos yeah.

Jesus those women .....