[SimonT]

update:

So i had a thought with the lower compression... if voltage is low, crank speed could be low... which would mean lower compression.

Ive attached a picture of the coil... i tried unscrewing the lead, but didnt force it. if it doesnt unscrew and breaks, im screwed... (no pun intended).

Adjusted the idle screw again.... its ok when cold, but still revs high when hot.

Had a horror on Tuesday morning trying to start it. Took me 30 mins to get it started. Thats after leaving it on the battery charger over night. Its a smart charger, so i assume it turns off when the battery is charged.
I assume the battery voltage had dropped again by the morning. was a horror show.

Also had a spare car battery laying around. Yesterday i had a play around with it again... and used this connected instead of the bikes battery. Was much easier to start... once started i tweaked the idle again. Voltage of the car battery would have been up around 13v i think.

This morning i connected the car battery to the bike battery with jumper leads, and it started first kick on kick starter. I disconnected the battery, then the engine died 10 seconds later. Reattached the jumper leads, and got it restarted a number of kicks later. left the jumper leads connected for a while until i left home.
Lets see how it starts on the way home this afternoon with no external battery.

Also fabbed up a new anti-vibration mount... much nicer to ride!!

I think thats about all to report for now.

[Richard230]

I had a somewhat similar experience with a FI BMW a few years ago.  It turned out that the bike's battery had developed an internal short that would show good voltage at rest after being attached to a battery maintainer until it had to deliver a load and then it would short out and not start the bike.  Replacing the battery solved the problem.

[SimonT]

I had a somewhat similar experience with a FI BMW a few years ago.  It turned out that the bike's battery had developed an internal short that would show good voltage at rest after being attached to a battery maintainer until it had to deliver a load and then it would short out and not start the bike.  Replacing the battery solved the problem.

I'm beginning to think something similar....

Was up to its same old tricks this morning... with the car battery attached to the bikes battery with jumper leads again... wouldnt start cause i forgot i had the headlight on 

[gashousegorilla]

update:

So i had a thought with the lower compression... if voltage is low, crank speed could be low... which would mean lower compression.

Ive attached a picture of the coil... i tried unscrewing the lead, but didnt force it. if it doesnt unscrew and breaks, im screwed... (no pun intended).

Adjusted the idle screw again.... its ok when cold, but still revs high when hot.

Had a horror on Tuesday morning trying to start it. Took me 30 mins to get it started. Thats after leaving it on the battery charger over night. Its a smart charger, so i assume it turns off when the battery is charged.
I assume the battery voltage had dropped again by the morning. was a horror show.

Also had a spare car battery laying around. Yesterday i had a play around with it again... and used this connected instead of the bikes battery. Was much easier to start... once started i tweaked the idle again. Voltage of the car battery would have been up around 13v i think.

This morning i connected the car battery to the bike battery with jumper leads, and it started first kick on kick starter. I disconnected the battery, then the engine died 10 seconds later. Reattached the jumper leads, and got it restarted a number of kicks later. left the jumper leads connected for a while until i left home.
Lets see how it starts on the way home this afternoon with no external battery.

Also fabbed up a new anti-vibration mount... much nicer to ride!!

I think thats about all to report for now.

   I would say your battery is toast.  Especially if it is a couple/few years old .   And if you have not been in the habit of keeping a charger on it, especially... over the winter months ? 

  And yes... it is possible that your compression reading is lower then normal , if that motor is cranking very slowly because of your weak battery.   But I would imagine it would have to be cranking pretty damn slow...  it should be checked with a good battery in there.  Or use that car battery to check it with.

  See the rusty screw post down there inside that coil ?   See how that connection can get ?       Again... the spark plug wire LOOKS like it is non-removable, but it just screws onto the post.

[SimonT]

   I would say your battery is toast.  Especially if it is a couple/few years old .   And if you have not been in the habit of keeping a charger on it, especially... over the winter months ? 

  And yes... it is possible that your compression reading is lower then normal , if that motor is cranking very slowly because of your weak battery.   But I would imagine it would have to be cranking pretty damn slow...  it should be checked with a good battery in there.  Or use that car battery to check it with.

  See the rusty screw post down there inside that coil ?   See how that connection can get ?       Again... the spark plug wire LOOKS like it is non-removable, but it just screws onto the post.

Yep... its looking more and more like battery... which was my instinct initially until i talked to the dealer - who suggested its the spark plug.

Its not cranking that slowly.... so might be slightly lower compression. will test on the car battery, and the kick start. What is the compression supposed to be on the starter? I'm not sure a number was actually mentioned.

Oh wow with the coil.... pretty rusty... Ok... ill pull it out again and try to unscrew it harder... you had better be right 

[gashousegorilla]

  Hows about you just tell us what you get with the good battery ?    

[SimonT]

  Hows about you just tell us what you get with the good battery ?    

 

[gashousegorilla]

 And don't forget to hold the throttle ALL THE WAY open when you do the compression test.  If you don't, you will get a false low reading..... it has to have some air in there to compress.

[SimonT]

And don't forget to hold the throttle ALL THE WAY open when you do the compression test.  If you don't, you will get a false low reading..... it has to have some air in there to compress.

will do.... 

[SimonT]

Update:
So I'm still confused.... Yesterday morning the bike took me 45 mins to get started
Used the car battery connected to the bike battery with jumper leads the whole time, but still refused to start until i wound the idle air screw out a couple turns.
Once it started i wound it back in.

Last night i pulled the coil out again... You were right! it was a screw type terminal. I had a mini freak out as i tried unscrewing it, and the wire broke inside the tube around the screw terminal. I had to dig it out with a screwdriver, but low and behold, there was a screw terminal in there after all.

I decided to replace the spark plug lead. I had one around from my old RX8, so i chopped it and screwed it into the plug cap and coil.
I did notice that the plug cap has resistance... up in the Meg Ohms... i assume this is normal?
I also ran a piece of wire from the negative terminal on the battery and put under one of the mounting screws for the coil in case it didnt have a good ground.... it does now.

I haven't done another compression test yet.

Based on it not starting easier with the car battery connected as well, I'm having doubts that its a battery voltage issue.

Is it possible for the injector to leak fuel into the engine while its off? Sounds silly saying it out loud.

[Arizoni]

Just thinking but, the wire twisting off indicates it may have been broken internally.
Replacing it with a good wire might have solved the problem.  Have you tried starting it since you put it back together?

Hopefully the new spark plug wire actually has wire inside it?  The carbon core "wires" don't like to be screwed onto threaded terminals.

No.  The fuel injector should not leak when the electrical system is off.

Rather than messing with the large brass idle screw which shouldn't be messed with after the idle speed is adjusted, have you tried using the "Bi-Starter" lever on the handlebars while the engine is cranking?

Actuating that Bi-Starter does the same thing that adjusting the brass screw does.
It lets more air pass thru the throttle body.

In fact, as a side note, I've found that when kick starting my bike, if I move the Bi-Start lever fully down and then kick the starter lever my bike usually starts on the first kick.  Always starts after two kicks.
Without using the Bi-Starter, kick starting usually took at least 4 attempts.

[gashousegorilla]

Update:
So I'm still confused.... Yesterday morning the bike took me 45 mins to get started
Used the car battery connected to the bike battery with jumper leads the whole time, but still refused to start until i wound the idle air screw out a couple turns.
Once it started i wound it back in.

Last night i pulled the coil out again... You were right! it was a screw type terminal. I had a mini freak out as i tried unscrewing it, and the wire broke inside the tube around the screw terminal. I had to dig it out with a screwdriver, but low and behold, there was a screw terminal in there after all.

I decided to replace the spark plug lead. I had one around from my old RX8, so i chopped it and screwed it into the plug cap and coil.
I did notice that the plug cap has resistance... up in the Meg Ohms... i assume this is normal?
I also ran a piece of wire from the negative terminal on the battery and put under one of the mounting screws for the coil in case it didnt have a good ground.... it does now.

I haven't done another compression test yet.

Based on it not starting easier with the car battery connected as well, I'm having doubts that its a battery voltage issue.

Is it possible for the injector to leak fuel into the engine while its off? Sounds silly saying it out loud.

  You know...  that car battery you have been using to jump start your bike, is also going to get drained if you keep doing it, without recharging it.       And yes... use a copper core wire with those screw on posts at the coil and at the spark plug boot.    The resistance across stock the spark plug boot should be  4.5 -6K ohms.  If it's out of spec. ?   I would toss it and pick up an NGK Boot. 

   As an initial setting for your idle, and to get you close to where it needs to be... turn the idle screw in clockwise, until it's lightly seated.  Then back it out 3/4 of a turn . Then... once you can get the bike started , either by using the throttle or the by-starter  to keep it running . LET IT warm UP  !... don't touch the idle screw until it is.    Then after it's warm enough to hold an idle.... TWEAK the idle screw as needed.   Just a SLIGHT  turn either in or out.  A little at a time here.  Then step back and let the motor cycle and listen.   Then do it again  if needed.    But give it a little time to catch up to your idle adjustments . 

  It is possible that your injector may be dripping or leaking in between pulses once pressurized by the system.  But I tend to think it's an ignition problem... Spark plug wire or boot,  OR  the bikes battery or that car battery your using? 
  "Start" from scratch...
    1st thing.... when you attempt to start the bike and it doesn't .   Do you get a Mil light ?      Key On , set the kill switch to the run position, you should hear the fuel pump  run a few seconds and simultaneously see the mil light come on, and then go out when the fuel pump shuts off.... give it a few seconds . Then see if that Mil light comes back on .  If it does ?... you have an issue with one of the sensors or their circuits.  And there are a list of codes we can dig into. If  the mil light does not pop back on ?   Then you are good with your sensors.   
 
You really can't  start trouble shooting , unless you have a known good battery.    Then take it from there...  OK, good battery bike won't start.... Hows my compression ?  ... Good . or good enough to start the motor , OK.   This motor should run with the right amount of fuel and a hot enough spark.    If if keep cranking the motor and it don't start and I smell fuel ? .... too much fuel or not enough spark.  I also want to be careful not to over do it with the cranking, because i will drain that battery again !    It could be too much fuel because I flooded it?  So let me make sure I have a good spark...again a good battery is a must to check this !  All my connections are good and such at the plug, the boot and at the coil,  crank it over and a nice fat blue spark.   Yeee Haaa !    THEN... if the bike still does not start ?   Then start thinking about fuel.... 

  You kinda can't be all over the place when you trouble shooting and approach it systematically or you can trip yourself up.... causing an issue over here, when the problem is over there.    I wounder if it is this ?   or Maybe it could be that ?    You'll drive yourself NUTS !             Been there, done that .  

[SimonT]

Just thinking but, the wire twisting off indicates it may have been broken internally.
Replacing it with a good wire might have solved the problem.  Have you tried starting it since you put it back together?

Hopefully the new spark plug wire actually has wire inside it?  The carbon core "wires" don't like to be screwed onto threaded terminals.

No.  The fuel injector should not leak when the electrical system is off.

Rather than messing with the large brass idle screw which shouldn't be messed with after the idle speed is adjusted, have you tried using the "Bi-Starter" lever on the handlebars while the engine is cranking?

Actuating that Bi-Starter does the same thing that adjusting the brass screw does.
It lets more air pass thru the throttle body.

In fact, as a side note, I've found that when kick starting my bike, if I move the Bi-Start lever fully down and then kick the starter lever my bike usually starts on the first kick.  Always starts after two kicks.
Without using the Bi-Starter, kick starting usually took at least 4 attempts.

Hmmm... pretty sure its probably one of those carbon ones... eek.. didnt think of that. Still ran alright when i started it this morning - it was up to its usual tricks when i started it this morning... (adjusted idle screw to get started)

I though the bi-starter lever was like a choke... its got the choke symbol next to it... As its flooding, i dont want to make that worse....

[SimonT]

  You know...  that car battery you have been using to jump start your bike, is also going to get drained if you keep doing it, without recharging it.       And yes... use a copper core wire with those screw on posts at the coil and at the spark plug boot.    The resistance across stock the spark plug boot should be  4.5 -6K ohms.  If it's out of spec. ?   I would toss it and pick up an NGK Boot. 

I've been charging the car battery... after sitting it is around 12.8v - obviously more after charging.

Will probably get a new cap anyway to eliminate it. Do you know what NGK one i should get?

   As an initial setting for your idle, and to get you close to where it needs to be... turn the idle screw in clockwise, until it's lightly seated.  Then back it out 3/4 of a turn . Then... once you can get the bike started , either by using the throttle or the by-starter  to keep it running . LET IT warm UP  !... don't touch the idle screw until it is.    Then after it's warm enough to hold an idle.... TWEAK the idle screw as needed.   Just a SLIGHT  turn either in or out.  A little at a time here.  Then step back and let the motor cycle and listen.   Then do it again  if needed.    But give it a little time to catch up to your idle adjustments . 

Will give that a crack. Just wondering how the by-starter lever actually works... is it adding more air, or choking air?

  It is possible that your injector may be dripping or leaking in between pulses once pressurized by the system.  But I tend to think it's an ignition problem... Spark plug wire or boot,  OR  the bikes battery or that car battery your using? 

The injector leaking idea popped into my head this morning... Cause it floods after a kick or 2.... seems like a lot of fuel for not much kicking.

  "Start" from scratch...
    1st thing.... when you attempt to start the bike and it doesn't .   Do you get a Mil light ?      Key On , set the kill switch to the run position, you should hear the fuel pump  run a few seconds and simultaneously see the mil light come on, and then go out when the fuel pump shuts off.... give it a few seconds . Then see if that Mil light comes back on .  If it does ?... you have an issue with one of the sensors or their circuits.  And there are a list of codes we can dig into. If  the mil light does not pop back on ?   Then you are good with your sensors.   

No MIL light.
Fuel pump sounds normal... primes for a second or 2 while MIL light is on.
Then MIL turns off.   

You really can't  start trouble shooting , unless you have a known good battery.    Then take it from there...  OK, good battery bike won't start.... Hows my compression ?  ... Good . or good enough to start the motor , OK.   

Looking at a new battery... just wanted to eliminate other things before dropping $100 on a battery that i potentially dont need.

Compression - will test again...

This motor should run with the right amount of fuel and a hot enough spark.    If if keep cranking the motor and it don't start and I smell fuel ? .... too much fuel or not enough spark.  I also want to be careful not to over do it with the cranking, because i will drain that battery again !    It could be too much fuel because I flooded it?  So let me make sure I have a good spark...again a good battery is a must to check this !  All my connections are good and such at the plug, the boot and at the coil,  crank it over and a nice fat blue spark.   Yeee Haaa !    THEN... if the bike still does not start ?   Then start thinking about fuel.... 

Yep... it floods really easily. A few kicks with the kick start and game over... I need to take the plug out and kick over to clear fuel - definitely a fuel smell when i do this.

I think ill try and take a video of the spark. When tested previously i would not call it a fat blue spark

  You kinda can't be all over the place when you trouble shooting and approach it systematically or you can trip yourself up.... causing an issue over here, when the problem is over there.    I wounder if it is this ?   or Maybe it could be that ?    You'll drive yourself NUTS !             Been there, done that .

Yep... its driving me nuts!! hehe. thanks again man. appreciate you being a sounding board.

[gashousegorilla]

  The by-starter is NOT a choke.  It adds air , not fuel.  It lifts a valve and lets air sneak around the throttle plate.   The idle... AIR.. screw  does the same thing , but in a fixed setting.  I would re-adjust the screw back down to 3/4 for now.

 From what your saying, No Mil codes.    So... you got a good battery... you probably have enough compression, but double check...  And you probably have spark even with the carbon wires, at least temporary until you can throw copper core wires on there  .     FUEL !!   The only way  you have seemed to get that bike running is to add more AIR !

  Go with your gut I say.   Try pulling that injector out , and with it connected to the fuel.. and perhaps pointed in a cup, WITH a fire extinguisher near by.    Key on, kill switch set to run, give it a few cranks with the starter ... you should see a very fine spray, almost a fog.   If it just drips....

  A 14mm NGK XB05F Curvy boot, or a straight NGK SB05F boot should do ya..