[Bilgemaster]

Man, I thought I'd seen the last of the "glorping out" of all of my motor oil since having diligently always made certain to park my 2005 Iron Barrel 500ES "Military" with the piston up near TDC, even for very short periods--said to help avoid wet sumping.  Still, I was shocked to discover my oil tank damned near empty yesterday when I stopped for an early roadside shrimp dinner at Crosby's after a pleasant and moderate hour or so long snort along some nearby country roads. I've been on many similar jaunts recently with no problems, so suspect some intermittent clog somewhere in that cockeyed crankcase breather system may be the culprit.

While I didn't actually witness my multigrade all sploodge out this time (as I have in the past while just idling shortly after startup) from that goddamned hose that dangles down by the center stand ahead of the rear tire from an inboard-facing fitment near the top of that black cylindrical "Crankcase Breather Condenser Tank" (tucked rather awkwardly for any regular service under my saddle and to the rear of the battery), but I assume it was again the path for my oil loss.  That condenser tank also has two thinner hoses attached to fitments in its bottom, both coming up from fitments in the inboard side of the timing case below the points and ignition housing, just forward and rear of it.

I'm hoping there's just some cloggery in the tubes or in what I'm led to understand may be a "duckbill valve" in the base of that condenser tank that may be fouling up this convoluted breather system somehow, causing it to barf Mobil1.

I really don't want to suddenly trash this lovely engine with only 5,000 miles on it due to sudden oil loss, so would gratefully accept any tips from Bulleteers whose own similar rides have recovered from such a case of the "Oily Sploodges."

[Adrian II]

The post 2004 breather system on the C.I. Bullets as well as the AVL models is a disaster. Loads of different solutions have been tried, as a bit of research will show.

If you don't get hassle for doing this I'd run a short piece of 90° shaped rubber hose (recovered from the existing breather set-up) off the oil tank breather vent to a non-return valve, and then a longer piece of hose along the rear chain guard to the back of the bike. No catch can. The two small bore pipes can be blocked off where they enter the engine. This was what finally worked for my Electra-X.

If you DO have to keep some kind of catch tank you can still keep the original but pay close attention to the pipe run, make sure there are no dips where the mayonnaise can build up and clog things. An after-market catch can may be a better idea than the original, though.

A.

[Blltrdr]

Exactly what Adrian pointed out, tons of info on this issue if you do a search. I had the same setup and got rid of it all and actually drilled out the original casting on the left side of motor just below the barrel.

[ace.cafe]

I have a ton of posts on this subject in the archives, including a post with step-by-step instructions with pictures.
Adrian is correct about the non-return valve being better when it is close to the engine, but the duck bill on the end works fine for very cheap. Just be sure to include a fast acting non -return valve somewhere in that hose. If you want the best, use a KrankVent.

[Guaire]

I concur. I posted a pic of my PCV here too.
Bilge Man - It’s a terrible problem, but easily fixed.

[Bilgemaster]

Thanks for the help. Rest assured I did search the forum archives for likely keywords like "crankcase breather," but the result was sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation, what with all the different engine types and breather setups--even with the search trimmed down to just the Bullet Iron Barrel section. Now that I have a couple of user names and more specific keywords like "KrankVent" a lot of that shrubbery should be cleared off...



Postscript: Okeedokee...Just ordered a nice KrankVent off FleaBay for $43.29 delivered. So, let the healing begin!

[tooseevee]

Thanks for the help. Rest assured I did search the forum archives for likely keywords like "crankcase breather," but the result was sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation, what with all the different engine types and breather setups--even with the search trimmed down to just the Bullet Iron Barrel section. Now that I have a couple of user names and more specific keywords like "KrankVent" a lot of that shrubbery should be cleared off...

Postscript: Okeedokee...Just ordered a nice KrankVent off FleaBay for $43.29 delivered. So, let the healing begin!

             One of my goals on the brand new, never registered, '08 AVL I found in 2010 was to get rid of every last vestige of Fed Emissions controls and make the engine run like it was meant to. It just wasn't possible for me to leave it stock, starved and strangled.

              I spare a mented with many different ideas over a coupla years and the way shown below is the easiest and best I came up with.

              All it is is a used DryGas container painted black. The top is cut at the right diameter for a nice tight fit on the hose. The OEM duckbill from the OEM Black Can of OEM Death is tightly attached to the end of the hose. The OEM duckbill is about 2" from the bottom. The container (free) sits naturally in that little space and natural tension of the curve in the hose also helps hold it there; it never moves. The container is totally unnoticeable out in natural light. The high arch of the hose is important; helps to condense mist and mayo on its way up the hose so it drips back instead of going over the top and on to the catch bottle.

               I never get much of anything in the bottle UNLESS!! I put a little too much oil back in at an oil change. Your engine (and the AVL) will punish you for doing that. Severely if you have a stock air filter setup. It will get rid of what it doesn't want in there.

 

[Arizoni]

Somehow, a good old fashioned Pabst Blue Ribbon can would look better to me.

What can be more traditional than a PBR catch can? 

[Blltrdr]

This is what I did to resolve the breather problem on the iron barrel motors where the breather was relocated on the newer motors. Believe me, well hashed out topic with many owners having issues.

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,5572.msg63877.html#msg63877

[Bilgemaster]

I have a ton of posts on this subject in the archives, including a post with step-by-step instructions with pictures. [snip!...] Just be sure to include a fast acting non -return valve somewhere in that hose. If you want the best, use a KrankVent.

Would you happen to have a direct link to that "post with with step-by-step instruction with pictures" you mention? I think I get the drift of the fix, and the KrankVent you recommend is already on its way, but if that post you're talking about pertains to my 2005 with its breather tubes coming off the inboard side of the timing case, so much the better. I've been rummaging through your roughly 13,000 or so posts here using likely keywords, but I'm having a hard time finding that specific post with pix.  Some folks mention a Yahoogroups forum thing of yours on the topic. Might it be found there instead? I've just joined that forum too, in case it's there--and also out of curiosity, to be honest. Seems like that Yahoogroup's gotten a little moribund and cobwebby nowadays though, like many such groups, with only 14 postings so far for 2018, with maybe a third of those being either administrative reminders or just plain "spammy."

[ace.cafe]

Do a search for restoring proper breather, and it should come up. Unfortunately, I must have previously deleted the pictures because it was so old. The text is still there.

[Arizoni]

I'll show my ignorance and ask, aren't the lines running from the timing case supposed to be "oil return" lines from the catch tank?

I know a lot of the Iron Barrels have a vent on the left hand side of the cylinder/crankcase and that is where the oil venting problem comes from.  (Or so I thought.)

[Blltrdr]

I'll show my ignorance and ask, aren't the lines running from the timing case supposed to be "oil return" lines from the catch tank?

I know a lot of the Iron Barrels have a vent on the left hand side of the cylinder/crankcase and that is where the oil venting problem comes from.  (Or so I thought.)

Yes hose to the timing case is a drain from the catch can. Find it odd that bilgemaster has two hoses. The original crankcase vent was on the left side of case just below the piston barrel and around 2004/5 they placed it on top of the case and vented out of the oil reservoir. This redesign lead to many complaints just like bilgemaster's. As memory serves that catch can had a vent hose that connected to the air box. If the drain hose clogged up the oily mayo would build up to the point it would puke all over the place. The true cure was to drill out the breather stub casting and plug the timing case nipple and to remove the oil reservoir breather nipple and replace it with a bolt or drain plug. You would then run a new breather hose from the original location up high and then route along the right side of the bike to the rear fender where you could use a hose splice and attach the duckbill valve that is in the bottom of the catch can. This solved all the problems and works great. You don't need to overthink this process like so many owners have. Ace has posted a zillion times helping many on what to do. I suppose he might be a little burned out beating this subject to death. Oodles of posts to read on this subject.

[tooseevee]

I'll show my ignorance and ask, aren't the lines running from the timing case supposed to be "oil return" lines from the catch tank?

I know a lot of the Iron Barrels have a vent on the left hand side of the cylinder/crankcase and that is where the oil venting problem comes from.  (Or so I thought.)

            Doesn't my picture above in an earlier post show how simple this is?

             You close off the "oil return" fitting into the timing case in a suitable manner as shown. Then you run the other hose (there are only 2) into a container (old DryGas container, PBR can or Coke bottle), as shown, with a duck bill on the end or you run it off the end of the bike with a duck bill on the end.

[tooseevee]

Yes hose to the timing case is a drain from the catch can. Find it odd that bilgemaster has two hoses. The original crankcase vent was on the left side of case just below the piston barrel and around 2004/5 they placed it on top of the case and vented out of the oil reservoir. This redesign lead to many complaints just like bilgemaster's. As memory serves that catch can had a vent hose that connected to the air box. If the drain hose clogged up the oily mayo would build up to the point it would puke all over the place. The true cure was to drill out the breather stub casting and plug the timing case nipple and to remove the oil reservoir breather nipple and replace it with a bolt or drain plug. You would then run a new breather hose from the original location up high and then route along the right side of the bike to the rear fender where you could use a hose splice and attach the duckbill valve that is in the bottom of the catch can. This solved all the problems and works great. You don't need to overthink this process like so many owners have. Ace has posted a zillion times helping many on what to do. I suppose he might be a little burned out beating this subject to death. Oodles of posts to read on this subject.

              Yes! ++1 Simple. Easy.

[Adrian II]

The factory "solution" is needlessly convoluted, I can see how the designer thought it SHOULD have worked, but he obviously forgot to take into account the physical properties of the breather condensate and the effects of poorly routed pipework.

I have another system planned for my current AVL project, will see if I can put some pictures up.

A.

[Bullet Whisperer]

It might be worth you taking a look at a video I made a while back.
 B.W.
 https://youtu.be/fZf9My8lwKg

[tooseevee]

It might be worth you taking a look at a video I made a while back.
 B.W.
 https://youtu.be/fZf9My8lwKg

            Is the solution that much more complicated in the Iron Head than in the AVL?   

[ace.cafe]

No, the iron barrel is actually easier. The AVL lacks the crank seal on the timing side, and thus relies solely on the pumps to clear the sump. There is no vestigial boss on the primary side of the crankcase of the AVL, but it still can be drilled and remedied like the iron barrel. Adrian did a lot of work with his AVL hybrid to combine the best of both worlds, so to speak.

Also, as B.W. points out, it is important to verify that there are no internal problems,  or remedy them if there are.

Basically, it is important to understand how the breather circuit works, what drives it, and then it can be understood how to work with it. I have written extensively in the archives about this, and would recommend reading my breather related posts from many years ago.

I would say that at this time of year, the climate conditions are ripe for water vapor condensation to occur inside the engine, causing it to mix water into the oil, resulting in a milky sludge the we call "mayonnaise". This mayo clogs the breather passages and hoses, causing pressure to build up, and shortly spews oil and mayo out of anywhere it can find, and usually overloads the catch can, and gets all over everything. Riding the bike for about a half hour after it is fully warmed-up will evaporate off the water and things will be fine, until the dew condenses in the engine next time. A heated garage would basically prevent it.

Regarding the basic breather function , just do what was originally on the older Bullets, which is a hose and a duckbill, or thereabouts valve like a KrankVent,  and you are good to go. None of the fancy or complex "gadgets" are needed or wanted. The system works if you don't unknowingly circumvent it with a modern "fix".

If you want to know where I found out about the KrankVent,  it was from Dave Roper at the Mid-Ohio Vintage Race event. He had one on his Manx, and we disussed it. Dave was the first American to win an Isle of Man TT event.

[Bilgemaster]

            Doesn't my picture above in an earlier post show how simple this is?

             You close off the "oil return" fitting into the timing case in a suitable manner as shown. Then you run the other hose (there are only 2) into a container (old DryGas container, PBR can or Coke bottle), as shown, with a duck bill on the end or you run it off the end of the bike with a duck bill on the end.

You are quite right as always, sir. Your AVL layout may look different than my old cast iron one, which has its ignition timing stuff looming over those inboard timing case and oil tank inlets, but it is indeed actually the same deal where it matters there. 

Anyhow, I was pleasantly surprised to have already received that KrankVent crankcase breather line check valve doodad in the mail yesterday afternoon. Turns out it's a Chinese knockoff (hence the lowish price), but a very well made one--quite pretty indeed in its own way. Its innards are even serviceable by screwing it apart and replacing the little umbrella seal within, a spare one of which is thoughtfully provided. Panic Cycles must have sent it via suborbital supersonic service or something for it to have arrived so quickly from Texas. So, what with that freak late nor'easter's snows now all gone and a 50-something degree sunny afternoon beckoning out there, I went ahead and yanked out that stupid catch bucket affair and used two of its connected hoses to rig up the KrankVent, as follows:

• The thin hose with the 90° bend from that oil tank fitting was trimmed just a few millimeters to clean its raggedy end up a bit, and then reattached (this time with a proper screw-type hose clamp) to the oil tank fitting, but with a nice steep upward angle towards the carb of maybe 60° or so
• the end of this hose was attached to the inward-flow end of the KrankVent, which is firmly tucked in up there between the air filter and battery
• The outward-flow end of the KrankVent was then attached to a large hose that formerly served as the catch can's overflow pipe (namely, the urethra from which my multigrade sploodged, if you will). I gather this hose is usually shorter on other bikes and connected to the air filter box in order to redirect gases back through the carb into the engine...or just foul the air filter when the sploodges come. It seems a previous owner removed this short standard to-air-filter hose from the catch can and instead dangled a great long fat filthy shlong of a hose from the catch can outlet all the way down to near the center stand. I have kept this arrangement--I'm done with catch cans for now.
• For the time being one of those non-cork wine corks drilled to fit and held by a hose clamp serves to seal up that former catch can oil return inlet to the timing case

A post mortem examination of the catch can setup revealed that the oil return drain line from the catch can to the timing case was indeed atherosclerotic, that is, nice and cloggy, and seems to have been the likely main culprit causing those intermittent sploodges by causing the catch can to overflow when this drain line couldn't keep up, like during sustained higher speeds (such as they are on an Enfield, anyhow). Also, that little duckbill checkvalve mounted in the catchcan seems a bit worn out...or at least the duck's apparently in a state of eternal astonishment and cannot stop saying, "oooooooooooo!".

I'm glad I'm pitching that sillyass setup. Some day (hopefully later rather than sooner) I may do that whole hog proper modification of restoring the breather to its rightful location to the left of the crankcase as "Ace.Cafe" has so helpfully described...maybe during some top end/rebore job long long down the road.  For the time being, I'll settle for this sub-optimal fix--so long as it keeps my ride from doing that Exxon Valdez impersonation again without warning. Just ejaculatory-free riding--that's my humble goal.

Thanks to everyone for their help and patience in revisiting yet again this apparently well-worn chapter of Royal Enfield ownership. Wish me luck!

[Adrian II]

There is no vestigial boss on the primary side of the crankcase of the AVL

Depends on the year, Ace! Later ones don't have them, though my '05 Electra-X did, so did the Electra-X cases on my project bike.

Glad to see you're getting it sorted, BM.

A.

[DanB]

Depends on the year, Ace! Later ones don't have them, though my '05 Electra-X did, so did the Electra-X cases on my project bike.

Glad to see you're getting it sorted, BM.

A.

Yep. My 06 has one.

[heloego]

   As does mine. '06.

[Adrian II]

It took the factory a while to work out that this was redundant and change the foundry patterns. It's also missing from the final C.I. models, I suspect the AVL and C.I. crankcases were machined from the same castings.

A.

[Bilgemaster]

Well, jury's still out, but a nice peppy ride to the boat lot seems to indicate that all is well in Crankcase Town. No sploodging anyhow--oil level right on the mark. Oddly enough, she just seems to run happier too...and my sex appeal has spiked. Odd how a little wrench-love and a nice polishing can improve matters. Uh-oh...trophy wife's beckoning. Gotta go. 

[Adrian II]

The original design of the Bullet engine dates from a time when nobody thought they'd have to comply with a growing number of stifling eco-fads. This is why cutting out the resultant junk on later C.I. and AVL Bullets often results in a happier bike (and rider).

Now the engine is no longer having to run as an auxiliary air compressor it can devote more effort to forward propulsion.

A.

[tooseevee]

The original design of the Bullet engine dates from a time when nobody thought they'd have to comply with a growing number of stifling eco-fads. This is why cutting out the resultant junk on later C.I. and AVL Bullets often results in a happier bike (and rider).

Now the engine is no longer having to run as an auxiliary air compressor it can devote more effort to forward propulsion.

A.

           

[Kevin Mahoney]

I thought it was the beginnig of the ends when RE quit drilling out and using the breather that came from the crankcase. Oddly enough they left the casting the same, just didn't drill them out.

Unfortunatley some brilliant engineer came up with the idea to relieve the crankcase pressure with passages that went from the crankcase and through the oil tank. It created nightmares that were never solved.

The UCE of course was well designed and the problems ended.