Author Topic: Iron barrel Con-Rod length ?  (Read 4208 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
on: December 20, 2017, 11:48:44 pm
   Out of curiosity, anybody out there have a measurement on the Rod ? ... Center to center , big end to small end , also small end bore diameter and big end bore diameter ? 
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #1 on: December 21, 2017, 12:09:02 pm
Length 6.875" center to center.
Small end .750".
Can't remember big end I.D. at the moment.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #2 on: December 22, 2017, 12:51:01 am
  Thank you . ;)      Interesting, that's about  5/8 longer then the UCE Rod...
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #3 on: December 22, 2017, 03:37:38 pm
  Thank you . ;)      Interesting, that's about  5/8 longer then the UCE Rod...
Yep, the iron barrel is a long rod motor.  At the time, it was considered good practice to have a 2:1 rod/stroke ratio. This is 1.94:1. It's still a good idea, if there is enough room in the platform for it. Side thrust/friction is lower with a long rod.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Chuck D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,378
  • Karma: 0
Reply #4 on: December 22, 2017, 11:35:45 pm
 Side thrust/friction is lower with a long rod.
That's what she said.
Ace "Fireball"#10 (Beefy the Bullet to her friends.)
 "Featherbed" frame by Rofomoto.

2017 Triumph T120


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #5 on: December 22, 2017, 11:39:07 pm
 Yup...
 To quote Smokey...

  " but there is one thing every racing engine builder must understand:  IT IS ESSENTIAL TO USE THE LONGEST CONNECTING ROD YOU CAN POSSIBLY FIT IN AN ENGINE !"

  I'm seeing why they did what they did with the UCE engine with the shorter rod, and where the power is . .. Particularly with those stock cams.  Ummmm....  they made it more efficient  at carrying the whole family and a goat across the tank perhaps..... ;D
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 02:10:21 am by gashousegorilla »
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #6 on: December 23, 2017, 03:06:05 pm
Yup...
 To quote Smokey...

  " but there is one thing every racing engine builder must understand:  IT IS ESSENTIAL TO USE THE LONGEST CONNECTING ROD YOU CAN POSSIBLY FIT IN AN ENGINE !"

  I'm seeing why they did what they did with the UCE engine with the shorter rod, and where the power is . .. Particularly with those stock cams.  Ummmm....  they made it more efficient  at carrying the whole family and a goat across the tank perhaps..... ;D
So, taking this idea one step further with the UCE, how about this:

Shorten the stroke to 78mm use the same 6.25" UCE rod, shorten the barrel about 12mm, bore it to 90mm, and get a high revving 500 with a 2:1 rod/stroke ratio, and the same bore/stroke dimensions as a G50.
With the top of the engine 12mm shorter, raise the intake port higher for better breathing, and bore the throttle body as far as possible  (38mm?) With a proper velocity stack into the factory airbox with our Ace outboard air filter.
A hot set of cams, good breathing head, and 8500 rpm should be in reach.

How do you like that idea?
Home of the Fireball 535 !


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #7 on: December 23, 2017, 08:29:47 pm
  I like it.  It's weee bit more then one step further though... but it would do it quite well for a road racing bike.  Your bottom end  should come in earlier as well .   One could also modify the stock crank and move the pin closer to center..... if one was to be going in there anyway... instead of shortening the barrel ?  Shorting a barrel is cheaper and easier though.    You would have to get a  GT jug  for the over bore, but then that would probably be it for any over bore in the future... Wearing out the bore might be an issue down the road for a racer or hard street riding. But the higher rod ratio should reduce wear in the bore.    Provided they continue to make the GT jug's it's not an issue though... you might might have to replace the jug with a new piston in that case .  You could always punch out the liner  from the 500's , open it up an put in a larger sleeve and allow for any over bore needed with the 90mm piston in the future.     Head work, new piston, crank balancing, Cams, rods, modified GT TB or Carb, tune, and etc and etc.

     It's a bit of work and money for sure, but all very doable for a killer effect I think.   
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


solg

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
  • Karma: 0
  • /Users/solgualtieri/Desktop/165532_489778052839_61
Reply #8 on: December 24, 2017, 12:14:50 am
Side thrust/friction is lower with a long rod.
That's what she said.
Well,Somebody had to go there!????
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows. FZ


Bullet Whisperer

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,133
  • Karma: 1
Reply #9 on: December 24, 2017, 12:59:39 pm
This might be of some interest, going by some of the comments above.
 We have three engines in total, for the 350 racer. One is fairly 'standard', with 70 x 90 bore and stroke, the second has the same bore and stroke, but uses a shorter conrod, based on the dimensions of the very rare 1963 unit Redditch Bullet - I call this our 'Short Rod' engine. The engine we have been running for the last few years is our one off 'Short Stroke' engine - basically a 500 short stroked down to 350, with 84 mm bore.
 Of the first two engines, there is little to choose between them, except the Short Rod engine is very slightly lighter, just by having less metal in it thanks to the shorter rod and barrel etc.
 The Long Rod engine could reach 8,000 rpm, as could the Short Rod, both peak with 32 - 33 bhp @ rear wheel around 7,200 rpm, with useful power coming on line around 3,500 rpm.
 The current 'Short stroke' engine uses a tuned 'Big Head' and will rev to 9,500 rpm, with a 1 1/2" GP carb fitted - this is much bigger than the TT carbs on the other engines - and this engine also produces 32 - 33 bhp, but at the higher speed of 8,500 rpm, with useful power coming in around 5,000 rpm and staying clear of 30 bhp right up to the rev limiter @ 9500 rpm.
 So, all have virtually the same power @ rear wheel, the first two being very similar in their power delivery. The short stroke engine is totally nuts and can take anything thrown at it and frequently wins races!
 Take your pick  ;D
 B.W.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 01:01:50 pm by Bullet Whisperer »


ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,457
  • Karma: 1
  • World leaders in performance/racing Bullets
Reply #10 on: December 24, 2017, 02:19:59 pm
This might be of some interest, going by some of the comments above.
 We have three engines in total, for the 350 racer. One is fairly 'standard', with 70 x 90 bore and stroke, the second has the same bore and stroke, but uses a shorter conrod, based on the dimensions of the very rare 1963 unit Redditch Bullet - I call this our 'Short Rod' engine. The engine we have been running for the last few years is our one off 'Short Stroke' engine - basically a 500 short stroked down to 350, with 84 mm bore.
 Of the first two engines, there is little to choose between them, except the Short Rod engine is very slightly lighter, just by having less metal in it thanks to the shorter rod and barrel etc.
 The Long Rod engine could reach 8,000 rpm, as could the Short Rod, both peak with 32 - 33 bhp @ rear wheel around 7,200 rpm, with useful power coming on line around 3,500 rpm.
 The current 'Short stroke' engine uses a tuned 'Big Head' and will rev to 9,500 rpm, with a 1 1/2" GP carb fitted - this is much bigger than the TT carbs on the other engines - and this engine also produces 32 - 33 bhp, but at the higher speed of 8,500 rpm, with useful power coming in around 5,000 rpm and staying clear of 30 bhp right up to the rev limiter @ 9500 rpm.
 So, all have virtually the same power @ rear wheel, the first two being very similar in their power delivery. The short stroke engine is totally nuts and can take anything thrown at it and frequently wins races!
 Take your pick  ;D
 B.W.

B.W.,
I don't know very much about your short stroke 350, but I ran a few numbers.

If the engine is above 30hp beginning around 5k rpm, it's producing about 30+ ft-lbs torque there. Let's look at 5252 rpm.
30 x 5252/5252 =30 hp.

Okay, so let's look at 6000 rpm, and assume tq is not falling.
30 x 6000/5252 =34.27 hp.
We can follow your report that the engine produces 32-33 hp max, so tq must begin falling somewhere between 5252 -6000 rpm, but not much. However,  as rpms increase, hp seems to remain the same, so tq must be falling at approximately the same rate as rpms increase.  This produces a very wide powerband,  but peak power is somewhat compromised in the result.

At 9000 rpm, the tq has fallen to about 19 ft-lbs.
19 x 9000/5252 = 32.55 hp.

So, I  suggest attempting some methods to cause that 30 ft-lbs peak tq to occur at a higher rpm. This would narrow the powerband somewhat, depending on what is done, but it should cause a higher hp figure. We know it can produce 30 ft-lbs, so we won't try to assume it can make more, because 30 ft-lbs is a lot for a 350. We just want to move it up the rpm range, if we can.

Let's see what would happen if it could hold on to that 30 ft-lbs at a higher rpm.
30 x 6000/5252 = 34.27 hp
30 x 6500/5252 = 37.13 hp
30 x 7000/5252 = 39.98 hp

Now, this is all predicated on the plausible premise that you can move that tq peak higher in the rev range. And I think that is a viable premise.

You know the methods.
Shorter pipes,  larger pipes, different cams, etc.
On the cam subject, I don't know what cams you have in there, but there is a limit to the late intake closing timing. With the 3500-4500 rpm level(broad flat peak) powerband that the engine is exhibiting, it is an indicator of long inlet timing, or late inlet closing timing.

I would try a bit of cam advance to close the inlet earlier, and open the exhaust earlier. Maybe just a 3-way timing pinion in the advanced keyway, just to get a directional indicator whether it has any benefit.

I am thinking if you could put the  peak in that tq curve at a higher rpm, it would give more power,  and wouldn't really have any negatives because you have so much rpm in the powerband already that making it a little peakier would be a plus.

Just a thought.

Looking forward to enjoying viewing your team's upcoming season of racing!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 03:06:40 pm by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Bullet Whisperer

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,133
  • Karma: 1
Reply #11 on: December 24, 2017, 03:37:53 pm
Thanks for those thoughts, Ace, I will keep them in mind.
 Here is a photo taken during one of the last dyno runs on this machine. Although against road speed, rather than rpm's, you can see it is clear of 30 bhp for a pretty wide engine speed range, making it a very quick machine - the other two engines had much steeper climbs and drops back down from their very similar maximum power outputs.
 B.W.


gashousegorilla

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Karma: 0
Reply #12 on: December 24, 2017, 07:56:25 pm
This might be of some interest, going by some of the comments above.
 We have three engines in total, for the 350 racer. One is fairly 'standard', with 70 x 90 bore and stroke, the second has the same bore and stroke, but uses a shorter conrod, based on the dimensions of the very rare 1963 unit Redditch Bullet - I call this our 'Short Rod' engine. The engine we have been running for the last few years is our one off 'Short Stroke' engine - basically a 500 short stroked down to 350, with 84 mm bore.
 Of the first two engines, there is little to choose between them, except the Short Rod engine is very slightly lighter, just by having less metal in it thanks to the shorter rod and barrel etc.
 The Long Rod engine could reach 8,000 rpm, as could the Short Rod, both peak with 32 - 33 bhp @ rear wheel around 7,200 rpm, with useful power coming on line around 3,500 rpm.
 The current 'Short stroke' engine uses a tuned 'Big Head' and will rev to 9,500 rpm, with a 1 1/2" GP carb fitted - this is much bigger than the TT carbs on the other engines - and this engine also produces 32 - 33 bhp, but at the higher speed of 8,500 rpm, with useful power coming in around 5,000 rpm and staying clear of 30 bhp right up to the rev limiter @ 9500 rpm.
 So, all have virtually the same power @ rear wheel, the first two being very similar in their power delivery. The short stroke engine is totally nuts and can take anything thrown at it and frequently wins races!
 Take your pick  ;D
 B.W.


 Interesting and a good result with that "short rod " motor ! Very cool.    So would it be fair to say, without giving exact dimensions now  ;)  ... you reduced your rod ratio closer to a 1.5:1 ?   BTW, I believe a Honda XL 500 has the same rod in it as the UCE,  however it's a bit shorter....


Side thrust/friction is lower with a long rod.
That's what she said.


Well,Somebody had to go there!????

   Degenerates.... ;) ;D
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.