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Author Topic: The Blackhawk Saga Continues  (Read 4305 times)

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High On Octane

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on: October 19, 2017, 05:05:57 pm
Well look at this.  The Blackhawk is on a lift.  What could it mean?    :)
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


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Reply #1 on: October 19, 2017, 06:59:30 pm
The new owner brought it in for repairs?


Ice

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Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 09:10:50 pm
 That it has come home to roost ?

I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

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High On Octane

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Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 06:27:54 am
She's finally getting all the love and finishing touches I could never afford to do.  Engine is coming apart and getting the case halves O-ring mod, all new gaskets and seals, new primary chain and timing chain, new stator and reg/rec, new tires and tubes, new valve springs.  And that should pretty much do her up good.  May also be installing a Smith's clone GPS speedometer.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


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Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 01:45:54 pm
Who knows?  Maybe it can also get a proper primary cover that holds oil so the primary chain and clutch can actually get lubricated?
Jim
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High On Octane

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Reply #5 on: October 20, 2017, 09:25:36 pm
Who knows?  Maybe it can also get a proper primary cover that holds oil so the primary chain and clutch can actually get lubricated?

Or a belt drive.  Who knows what's in store?!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 07:59:32 am
Ordered up some K70's yesterday.  Going to be placing a large HC order on Sunday.  Decided to replace the timing and magneto chains too while I'm in there.

Is there any other odd ball parts that I should replace while I have the engine split and torn apart?  Anything oil pump wise? I know the worm gears aren't the best.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


grumbern

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Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 10:10:03 am
Maybe consider modifying you oil pump spindle to fit a securing bolt, like on the interceptors. These things have a tendency to groove into the front pump shield/lid and break.

Andreas


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Reply #8 on: October 28, 2017, 08:51:42 am
Maybe consider modifying you oil pump spindle to fit a securing bolt, like on the interceptors. These things have a tendency to groove into the front pump shield/lid and break.

Andreas

This the first I've heard of the 700s having oil pump issues.  Only mod I've ever heard of is installing a return pump on the feed side to increase oil volume.

So looks like the Interceptor and Connie have the same oil pump spindle.  And I see the "Securing Screw" in the Interceptor diagram.  How and where do you add that screw to the Connie motor?
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grumbern

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Reply #9 on: October 28, 2017, 01:40:26 pm
I don't know if it's a common issue, but on my Chief the spindle was broken and on at least all three return pump covers I have there were marks of the spindle rubbing against them (see attached image. Also I don't think they would have added that screw for nothing, so I modified that on my Chief, just in case:

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,21851.msg282422.html#msg282422

Greets,
Andreas


High On Octane

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Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 04:04:26 pm
K70's showed up today!
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High On Octane

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Reply #11 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:05 am
Received my Hitchcock's order yesterday.  I knew it was my order as soon as I saw the mailman walking towards the shop with it.  How did I know?  Because it looked like someone put the box thru a garbage disposal and taped it back together!  Luckily it appears nothing was damaged.

I was EXTREMELY stoked upon unboxing the alternator adapter ring.  No more cast pot metal!  They actually machined it out of aluminum!  Yay!  It's the 4th one I've had to order as every single one before broke into several pieces upon disassembly for any reason.  So, so happy to see machine marks instead of casting marks.

I was originally going to rejet and ride my dirt bike today, but maybe I'll start taking the Blackhawk apart.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


mattsz

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Reply #12 on: November 19, 2017, 11:44:03 am


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Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 05:49:42 pm
K70's showed up today!

           I want them! I want them!   :) :)
2008 AVL Classic.Extensive head work by Ace.Ace canister/TM32/Ace manifold.Small open bottle/hot tube removed.Pertronix Coil.Bobber seat.Fed mandates removed.Battery in right side case.Decomp&all doodads removed.'30s Lucas taillight/7" headlight.


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Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 07:36:00 pm
Well, I got the engine almost removed.  I couldn't separate the engine and trans because my 2 1/8" crank nut socket is in my toolbox in the livingroom.  But, I'll go into work early and try to get things separated and hopefully pulled out.  Then it's on to separating the case halves.  The machine shop next door will be marching the oil passages for the o-ring mod.  Then to see if I can actually put one of these motors ALL the way back together.  Haha.  So far, things have been coming apart smoothly.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 06:49:02 pm
Ummmm...  Well.....  This sucks.  The motor is out tho.  Kind of glad I'm not paying for parts at this point.


2001 Harley Davidson Road King


mattsz

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Reply #16 on: November 23, 2017, 06:38:19 am
Some previous owner must have thrashed that thing...



High On Octane

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Reply #17 on: November 23, 2017, 09:18:26 am
Some previous owner must have thrashed that thing...



Honestly could be.  I won't lie.  Haha  Honestly almost looks like oil starvation..  Oddly enough, the head gasket on the left cylinder, the composite had started breaking away on one corner (from poor fitting over the head studs), but the flame ring was still in tact.  So, it was sealing enough for compression, but was leaking oil badly into the cylinder.  So, left piston was completely opposite condition.  Right piston almost too clean, and left piston completely covered in burnt oil.

Does anyone remember the exact piston and rod combo I came up with a few years ago?  I just remember BSA A10 rods that needed the big end bored slightly.   ;D  Every time I price out forged pistons and rods thru HC's I about crap my pants.  Almost  $1K after shipping and conversion rates, or $250 per part, or $500 per cylinder.  Either way you slice it, big money.

I guess time to look into all my old posts here.  I wonder what the heck title that even is that made that topic under.
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Adrian II

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Reply #18 on: November 23, 2017, 05:31:11 pm
Just be grateful that the value of the pound has slumped since Brexit started...

A.
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High On Octane

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Reply #19 on: December 29, 2017, 07:42:38 am
Pending weather, I should be splitting case halves today.  If it's super nice and not too muddy, I may take my buddy/co-worker's daughter out riding some trails today.  He got her a cool little mini bike for Christmas.  But, the track might be closed due to recent snow melt and be too muddy to open.

And speaking of dirt riding, I'm seriously considering making my YZ450F street legal with some dual sport tires and a 3.3 gallon "trail" tank.  As nasty as that bike is, I'm extremely confident it will do the ton with correct gearing.  As it is, it will stand the front wheel straight up just rolling a 1/3 throttle without slipping the clutch.  Even my buddy says it's the stupidest bike he's ever ridden.  I swear you could pull stumps with it.  Haha!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


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Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 07:23:02 am
Hey guys!  Have an update!  I finally got the case halves split and getting ready to place a final order with Hitchcock's today.  Did make some interesting discoveries upon disassembly.  First was that the piston that was completely carbon/oil soaked actually had a broken scraper ring.  Which would explain why the bike wasn't smoking, but when the owner last started it, it was.  Could've have possibly stuck in the cylinder, as it hadn't run in a bit.

Also, I discovered the magneto drive chain was badly worn and way out of spec.  So, that could possibly explain why I've been having such a hard time getting the timing set correctly.  The timing chain itself was a little loose as well.  Luckily I have already ordered all new chains throughout, primary, magneto and timing.

After speaking with the owner the other day, we've decided we are going to do a complete full rebuild now, with forged rods and pistons.  Also, I will be completely rebuilding the heads with new guides, valves and springs, too.  I need to contact ARP as I want to replace the head studs as well, and these are not the original studs.  Anywho.  Here's some pics of the progress.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 07:26:21 am
A few more pics.
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Reply #22 on: January 13, 2018, 08:06:04 am
Well, no dineros to go ride dirt bikes this weekend, and the boss is out of town for a snowmobile adventure.  So, the plan is to get as much prep work done as possible with the parts I currently have over the weekend.  With that being said, I'm going to try and get the trans rebuilt, new K70's installed, and rebuild the forks with the new springs I ordered years ago, but never installed because I wasn't sure how to go about spacing the fork springs.  Now that I've worked at a motorcycle shop for a year, I've realized that the spring spacers are nothing more than small sections of PVC pipe.

If I get all of that done in a timely matter, then I will start working on getting all the shiny aluminum bits polished up.  Anyone know any tricks for polishing the inner wheel hubs without unlacing the wheel?
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


grumbern

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Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 04:48:12 am
Well, I'm sure you wont like to hear this but: No way! If you want to do a propper polishing you need to unlace the wheels. As I too have struggled with polishing in the past, I'd like to recomend using "sanding stars" instead of sandpaper. These cost a little but they pay off! I have two sets of 180-240-400-600-800 grain and they are much quicker, less abrasive and give a better surface than sanding by hand. Plus, they last quite some time.

After you made the last sanding step (800), the number of steps obviously depending on the condition of the parts, let it sit for about 15-20h before polishing, to give it some time to build up a thin oxide layer. The polishing itself should be done with a fast running and strong disk, so you can create enough heat on the surface. This will "melt" it to a chrome like shine.

Don't use polishing fuids! These are just fine sanding agents but not polishing - they'll do the opposite and the surface is very prone of getting dull even faster. If not, it's just the wax of the so called polish that prevents it for some time. A good polish needs heat.

That's just some advise that I got from a guy who does this as a professional and I have to admit, on porous castings, as you might have on the bike, it's almost impossible to "seal" everything up to a state, where corrosion (dullness) doesn't get in.

Oh, if you throw out the old conrods - can I have them? ;)
Good luck buffing up the beast!
Andreas


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Reply #24 on: January 14, 2018, 04:53:23 am
Oh, just another thing, if you don't already know it:

http://recoainc.com/recoainc%20backup/twin%20oil%20mods.pdf

As you have the engine apart, that might be a good idea.
Greets,
Andreas


High On Octane

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Reply #25 on: January 14, 2018, 07:11:43 am
Thanks for the tips Andreas.  That's the first I've heard of not using some type of compound for polishing.  But, alas, there are several imperfections and deep scratches on the timing cover that I'd like to get smoothed out and cleaned up.  I also intend on going back to a normal primary cover, so will be polishing up that as well, along with the case halves.

As far as the case halves modifications, ERC has already provided me with those pages printed off a couple of years ago.  So, have already done a bit of research in that department.  I will be having the machine shop next door doing the O-ring mod for the rocker feeds.  I'll likely do the drilling myself.  And speaking of drilling and mods.  It sounds like they recommend blocking off the crank breather all together.  My original intents were fit a T fitting on the top/side of the oil tank, and run the original crank breather to the T, and then run the breather into the air filter like modern bikes.  Or, just put a breather element on the top of the T.  Any suggestions on that setup?

Sounding like I'll need to do a slight overbore on the cylinders too, as the forged I'm ordering pistons have a bigger expansion rate than the cast pistons.  And on those same lines, I'll probably have to have new valve seats cut too.  So, all said and done, the bike is going to have a brand new motor, head and trans.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


grumbern

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Reply #26 on: January 14, 2018, 11:45:31 am
Well, I just sanded my primary case for the Chief today. I'll post some pics and you can check it out. I am always amazed how well this works, using the sanding stars. Don't want anything else!

As for the polishing itself, it is esential to let a thin oxide layer grow and then polish that within a given time with wax and a polishing disc, creating a good amount of heat. That will "close" the surface of the aluminium and make it resistant against weather. The polish you get from never dull and such, is basicly not a polish, but very fine sanding, leaving the surface smooth, but without any protection but maybe the wax/oil of the compound. The guy talked to took much longer to explain this and he/his company has done quite some research on that topic.

For the breather, I think by shutting off the crank breather they really mean the one in the crank shaft! This would blow into the primary creating a fair amount of preasure and cause it to leak. The breater on the crank case can stay and be connected to the oil tank. So your basic idea should work just fine!
On my bikes, I really like to let them "breath" onto the chain. That way they are always provided with enough lubricant.
Greets,
Andreas


grumbern

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Reply #27 on: January 14, 2018, 12:39:34 pm
Ah, by the way: What I said only count's for aluminium. Other materials, such as stainless steel, brass, copper etc. can be polished right away and also with the use of these compounds. Aluminium is a little special ;)


High On Octane

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Reply #28 on: January 26, 2018, 03:44:24 pm
Remaining engine parts are being held ransom by FedEx customs.  They made me provide detailed information of every part in the box including what the parts are made of, along with its purpose, and a copy of my invoice, AND what the main bearings are made of and used.  A bit ridiculous if you ask me.  So, here I sit even longer without any progress being made.  It's always something with this Damn bike.  I guess that's what I get for naming it after a deceased Native American war chief.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #29 on: February 08, 2018, 04:00:38 pm
Well, I have all parts lined up with the exception that one piston came without its ring set.  So those were shipped out yesterday.  Found out today a good Harley customer garage mechanic of mine is setup for crank balancing and is going to teach me to balance it myself.  So, that is exciting!  Hopefully will have the new valve guides installed before the end of the weekend, then heads are off to have new seats cut.  Going to try and get the case halves next door to have the O-Ring mod machined in.  Fun fun!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


DanKearney

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Reply #30 on: February 09, 2018, 05:38:02 pm
Hey Scott,


Just an FYI.  I put those K70's on one of my solo Urals.  They do not like Colorado's grooved cement pavement!


Otherwise, good to see your build progressing.


Cheers,

Dan K.


High On Octane

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Reply #31 on: February 09, 2018, 06:23:57 pm
Hey Scott,


Just an FYI.  I put those K70's on one of my solo Urals.  They do not like Colorado's grooved cement pavement!


Otherwise, good to see your build progressing.


Cheers,

Dan K.

Hey Dan!  How have you been?  Yeah, bikes in general I feel don't fair very well on the grooved pavement.  But, thanks for the heads up.  I still have your spare rain suit I need to get back to you sometime as well.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


Bilgemaster

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Reply #32 on: February 09, 2018, 09:16:49 pm
Honestly could be.  I won't lie.  Haha  Honestly almost looks like oil starvation..  Oddly enough, the head gasket on the left cylinder, the composite had started breaking away on one corner (from poor fitting over the head studs), but the flame ring was still in tact.  So, it was sealing enough for compression, but was leaking oil badly into the cylinder.  So, left piston was completely opposite condition.  Right piston almost too clean, and left piston completely covered in burnt oil.

Does anyone remember the exact piston and rod combo I came up with a few years ago?  I just remember BSA A10 rods that needed the big end bored slightly.   ;D  Every time I price out forged pistons and rods thru HC's I about crap my pants.  Almost  $1K after shipping and conversion rates, or $250 per part, or $500 per cylinder.  Either way you slice it, big money.

I guess time to look into all my old posts here.  I wonder what the heck title that even is that made that topic under.

You helped me out, H.o.O., so please allow me to do the same.  I believe that old post of yours from a few years back about piston and con rod options is found at: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,19408.msg230721.html#msg230721
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High On Octane

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Reply #33 on: February 10, 2018, 12:20:03 pm
You helped me out, H.o.O., so please allow me to do the same.  I believe that old post of yours from a few years back about piston and con rod options is found at: https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,19408.msg230721.html#msg230721

Thanks Bilgemaster.  I ended up deciding to go with Hitchcock's forged rods and pistons to make life easier.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #34 on: February 11, 2018, 10:14:01 pm
Finally found a little extra time to make some progress on the rebuild.  Got the new valve guides installed and took the heads over my buddies house and got them sized up for the new valves.  I couldn't find an actual spec for clearance tolerance, so we went .004 over on the exhaust side and .003 over on the intake side.  So, off top the head shop first thing in the morning to drop off the heads to get new seats cut.  So, hopefully will get them back by the beginning of next week and get them reassembled.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 02:25:54 pm
More worms in the mix.  The forged rods don't clear the sides of the crank journals.  And the cylinders are apparently bored out to 71.83mm, which is a full millimeter over the pistons.  Pistons drop right thru the hole.  So, now it looks like I will need to replace the cylinders as well.  Man this is getting intensive.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


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Reply #36 on: February 13, 2018, 07:25:08 pm
Were the pistons that were in it really damaged that badly?

Buying new cylinders sounds like a whole lot of money would be needed if you could even find any (and then they might not be the right ones for the lower case).
Jim
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Reply #37 on: February 14, 2018, 12:28:06 pm
Were the pistons that were in it really damaged that badly?

Buying new cylinders sounds like a whole lot of money would be needed if you could even find any (and then they might not be the right ones for the lower case).

Hitchcock's had new reman cylinders for £191 each and will fit partitions pistons to cylinders at no charge if purchased together.  So not quite as costly as you'd think.  But, yeah.  The cylinder skirts are pretty thin.  I'm thinking these are .040 over Interceptor pistons.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 01:18:47 pm by High On Octane »
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #38 on: February 16, 2018, 12:00:41 pm
Okie dokie.  New cylinders and stock size forged pistons were ordered this morning.  I also have a box of returns going back to England, including the .040 over pistons that won't be used, and a few of and ends that done how got double ordered.  So luckily there will be about a £405 offset to help cover the new costs. 
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #39 on: February 16, 2018, 12:02:27 pm
Also, hopefully my conrod big ends will be milled down today so I can actually Plastgage the big end bearings and verify clearance.  Luckily it's only costing me a case of beer.  Haha
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #40 on: February 19, 2018, 09:39:25 am
Didn't have any parts lined up for test fit or assembly this weekend.  So, I was able to get out for some much needed seat therapy.  I met up with my good friend and owner of Supernova Jerseys yesterday, and we hit up the MX track and trails at IMI Motorsports Complex in Erie, CO.  Actually, the same place I raced the Blackhawk on the circle track.  Was a great day to ride with temps in the high 60's F, tho it was quite windy and dusty.  Was pretty cool tho, because a Colorado drift car club was there having a meet on the road course.  Was a pleasure to the senses with scents arraying from burnt rubber, to methanol to pre-mix.   :D

As for the build, the replacement cylinders and pistons were marked as shipped this morning.  So, will hopefully have those in my possession soon.  So, if there is any good be had from this ordeal, at least I will have brand new cylinders with all the fins, back to original bore with the option to oversize in the future.  Plus, apparently when you order cylinders and pistons together from HC's, they fit the pistons and rings to the cylinders before shipping.  So, when I get them, I will be able to go right in.  With the exception I will have to check for conrod clearance.  Bad news is, the shipping quote to return parts back to HC's was over $200!   :o  So, I'm going to post them on a couple of Facebook pages and just try to break even on them.  I would post them on here, but I know Kevin doesn't allow that.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #41 on: February 21, 2018, 01:37:27 pm
Got my rods back a little while ago.  Hopefully they fit now.  Will get the big ends plastigaged tonight.  Hopefully all goes well.  I've had enough surprises with this project.  Haha!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


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Reply #42 on: February 23, 2018, 09:42:19 pm
Finally ready to start making some progress!  Not only did I receive the new cylinders and pistons today, but I also got the call from the head shop that the seats were cut and heads were cleaned and ready to go.  Everything looks great so far.  It's exciting knowing I finally have everything coming together.   :D  Sunday, I'll be going over to Steady Eddie's house to start mocking up the cylinders and case halves and make any modifications needed for clearance issues.  Going to try and get the heads reassembled tomorrow after work.  Might have this thing ready for the riding season after all!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #43 on: February 23, 2018, 09:45:01 pm
And, of course.  Some pics of the cylinders.  They may have fitted the pistons, but they certainly didn't clean up their mess.  The cylinders and pistons are covered in machining oil.  Nothing a couple cans of brake clean can't fix.   ;)

I guess one blessing in disguise is that now I will at least have a show capable motor without any broken cooling fins.  I guess I had better get all the shiny parts polished up real nice.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


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Reply #44 on: February 27, 2018, 07:54:32 pm
Shit is getting real intense.   Just ordered this today just to be able to machine con rod clearances in the case halves by myself.  Seriously considering disassembling the heads again and gasket matching the intake ports.  I already gasket matched the intake manifold years ago, and always wanted to do the heads, too.  Nothing real crazy.  Just about 3/4" deep so there is a nice smooth transition all the way from the carb to the valves.

Might as well at this point.  Why?  Because I'm already balls deep in this build.  And because I found out the tech school has a flow bench that hasn't been used in about 2 or 3 years, and the instructor and I want to fire it up!    ;D
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


High On Octane

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Reply #45 on: March 21, 2018, 08:12:05 pm
I don't have much to report.  I've been stupid busy training for this new system switch over at work.  While at the same time, training to be general manager of the store.  Needless to say I haven't had much time to wrench or ride.  Should be getting tax returns soon and considering converting my YZ450F to a street legal dirt bike.  Will cost me about $600 in parts (my cost of course) plus tags.  Geared right now it will do about 70mph in no time flat.  With some taller gears, she should ton up no problem.  She's every bit of 50hp on a 235 pound bike.  With the dirt gears, she absolute scares me at WOT past 2nd gear.  It's a 4 speed and will stand up in every gear without the clutch.  Seriously the nastiest dirt bike I've ever ridden.  Puts most of my old street bikes to shame.
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Reply #46 on: April 05, 2018, 07:49:51 pm
No progress as of late.  I've been working crazy hours lately, averaging 7-10 hours of OT a week.  Besides the boss, I'm usually always first one in and last one out.  Paychecks have been nice, but would also be nice to have a little free time.  I'm hoping next weekend I can start making some progress again.
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Reply #47 on: July 25, 2018, 06:41:46 pm
Finally, some progress!  I put in my notice at work Monday and was told to get my things Tuesday morning.  So with a few days of unexpected off time, I decided to take advantage and get some work done on the motor.  I got the all my clearances finally cleared on the case halves.  Was really just a matter of removing the casting marks on the right side.  But for the first time, had both case halves together with cylinders and pistons and was able to rotate the entire assembled bottom and top end around.  Yay!

Tomorrow's mission will be to take the rotating assembly over to a machine shop in the metro that my local vintage Brit expert recommended.  I'm going to see if they can balance the assembly while they are at it.  Then I'm going to speak with ARP to source correct cylinder/head studs.  And finally, drop off my case halves to the machine shop next door to my old employer to have the oil tank TIG welded, and also have them machined for the O ring modification.  Will be a busy day for sure.
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Reply #48 on: July 25, 2018, 06:44:21 pm
A pic of the bottom end together temporarily.
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Reply #49 on: July 26, 2018, 10:25:59 am
Well found a shop willing to fit the rods to the crank.  Problem is, they will only do it if I provide over-sized bearings.  So another
order from HC's is needed.

Also, yesterday while tapping on the crank and case halves getting them separated, a mystery threaded insert fell out of somewhere.  Even ERC is stumped on this one, and I'm starting to think it fell out of the oil drain plug hole, indicating that there is a possibility a different style plug has been retro fitted.  Going to try and figure that out today.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King