Author Topic: Perforrmance Camshafts for the C5  (Read 12168 times)

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Chilliman

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on: August 27, 2017, 08:46:20 am
Hi all
Does anyone know who can grind the camshafts for the UCE Bullet 500?
And no I don't want the cams Hitchcock supply.
I am looking for something unique not generic.
Thanks for your offerings.


Ice

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Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 08:53:58 am
gashousegorilla knows a guy.... ;)
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 06:46:10 pm
 Oh... I might COULD know a guy or two, who were grinding cams for these UCE motors before HC ever did.  ;)   Something like this maybe ?....



 
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_Paul_

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Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 08:21:28 am
Oh... I might COULD know a guy or two, who were grinding cams for these UCE motors before HC ever did.  ;)   Something like this maybe ?....

Hi,

Nice and shiny cams but the gear tooth profiles look different with different top land (O.D) thicknessess, are they supposed to be that way?

Paul
1968 BSA Bantam D14/4
2017 Classic Chrome Bullet 500
1996 Yamaha 535 Virago
1996 GT550 Kawasaki G9
1988 GT550 Kawasaki G5
1987 GT550 Kawasaki G4
1991 GT750 Kawasaki P5
1989 R80RT BMW
1981 R100RT BMW


Otto_Ing

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Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 10:42:21 am
Yes they MUST be like that.


Chilliman

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Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 11:40:25 am
Thanks to those who replied and offered opinions.
Those cams do look nice but some specs would be a bonus.
The cams obviously have reduced base circle diameters, and those noses make the cams look like relatively long duration with moderate lift that would be very kind on valve train components....... all desireable qualities.
The valve train in the UCE looks very tough and with very few mods, would support a shorter duration, higher lift profile typical of some performance hydraulic roller profiles, and more conducive to the inherent design of a longish stroke, "relatively" low revving, relatively long connecting rod motor.
Cam profiles that open very quickly, hold the valve open for a relatively long period and close the valve rapidly.
Almost rectangular shaped lobes that could be called any number of geometric shapes.
I need to do more measuring with rod lengths and crank angles to really do the math.
There is a cam out there with my name on it  :D
 
 


ace.cafe

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Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 04:22:19 pm
We have done the highest lift UCE engines(Continental GT 535), as far as I am aware. We have gone with high ratio roller rockers, on stock cams, longer duration cams with standard lobe lift, and longer duration cams with 20% higher lift on the lobes.

We have done about 13mm(.500) lift at the valve.
Have dyno data on all. General information on what produces what results.

Choices depend on desired power profile and rev range. All worked well for intended uses.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 04:25:01 pm by ace.cafe »
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Narada

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Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 05:47:53 pm
  :o ;D :o ;D :o
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Chilliman

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Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 11:19:43 pm
G'day from Darwin,
I might be mistaken but are you the people who worked together with Matt Capri on the 535 at Bonneville?
I have been wrong before..........I can remember back in "62  :D
You guys sound like exactly the people I would like to contact about some cams and other things.
There is such a lack of information about the UCE motors.
So far I have slowly gone over things with the mics and dial gauges to try and get some specs to work with.
I don't suppose you know the ctr to ctr connecting rod length on the 500 Bullet UCE do you?
Like I said before I am an old bloke and I really want to make something special, one because people say I can't do it so that means I have to, secondly to give those who say "Oh, it's only one of those cheap Indian bikes", something to think about and thirdly to go with that huge chunk of boy that still lurks inside me.
62 years old and there is still a "hoon" in there.
Thanks heaps for your reply.


Ice

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Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 02:15:55 am
Chilliman you are in good company.
  Search the forum for  Narada's Madras Missile, Bill Harris's Harris Scrambler, gasshouse gorillas Cafe racer, scooterboobs go fast goodiess and the conti GT belonging to Otto with Ace Cafe custom wowsers on board.
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gashousegorilla

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Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 02:59:17 am
Thanks to those who replied and offered opinions.
Those cams do look nice but some specs would be a bonus.
The cams obviously have reduced base circle diameters, and those noses make the cams look like relatively long duration with moderate lift that would be very kind on valve train components....... all desireable qualities.
The valve train in the UCE looks very tough and with very few mods, would support a shorter duration, higher lift profile typical of some performance hydraulic roller profiles, and more conducive to the inherent design of a longish stroke, "relatively" low revving, relatively long connecting rod motor.
Cam profiles that open very quickly, hold the valve open for a relatively long period and close the valve rapidly.
Almost rectangular shaped lobes that could be called any number of geometric shapes.
I need to do more measuring with rod lengths and crank angles to really do the math.
There is a cam out there with my name on it  :D
 

  Yes.. stock regrinds with reduced base circles.   You have to be a bit careful with these UCE motors and the lifters.  There are retaining pins which locate the lifters and limit their travel UP in the bores...  so you cant add TOO much material over the nose of the cam, or you will contact those pins... not good . ;)    There is about .100 "  clearance as I remember, between the nose of the stock cam at full lift and sending them lifters smashing into the retaining pins.   I suppose one COULD machine the flat on the side of the lifter, to gain a bit of height with that lifter...but you may start running out of lifter bore room .    So we found it prudent to get our lift at the base circle.  ;)   And yes, it's a decent valve train to work with.  A couple few tweaks with it and your good to go.   Better springs, better rods, lighten the rocker up a bit and etc. Stock stainless valve are pretty good.... Muti angle job on the seats and valves and etc.

    The cams you see pictured there I ground up...  in my OWN over filled shed  ;)... on my cam prototype machine.  The stock Cams ARE harder then shit btw.   There are a copy of ScooterBobs's cam profile which helped Scooterbob and I get to 36 HP and 38 ft lbs at the wheel on a 500 cc motor.... Along with a few other mods.   They are 240 degree cams at 50 thou .  valve lift is .438  at a stock 1.28  ratio on the intake.  260 duration on the exhaust ,  and a .456  lift on the exhaust valve.     We like to scavenge .. ;)

 I'm playing around with another profile I ground up in the bike, which show promise.   It's a 250 duration intake cam, with a .430 duration and .430 valve lift,  and a 260 exhaust with .450 lift on that valve.    It builds a wee bit more compression down low , and it's good straight up on the marks or one tooth back.    I'm liking it very much.... 

  Don't have the specs in front of me now, but if memory serves.... that con-rod is 160.5 mm center to center I believe.

 
Hi,

Nice and shiny cams but the gear tooth profiles look different with different top land (O.D) thicknessess, are they supposed to be that way?

Paul

  Thanks paul.  And yes , Like Otto said... Cam lash and plastic oil pump gears you know.  ;)  The Inlet cam gear is a couple mil's larger then the exhaust gear.   I THINK... though am not sure... where others have gotten into trouble with after market cams for these bike, is that they made BOTH Cam gears the same dimensions.  Maybe ... ?

« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:11:54 am by gashousegorilla »
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Chilliman

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Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 05:33:03 am
G'day you blokes,
Thanks for the technical offerings.
I knew there would be people out there who "spoke the language".
I wondered how you got on with the decompression system on the exhaust with a re-profile with reduced base circles, which was making me look at long duration modest lift cams, that would maybe reduce cranking compression a little.
Someone mentioned something I never thought about and that is backward crank motion when the motor is switched off upsetting the sprag clutch.
Also, I saw those adjustable rockers on the ACE site this morning...WHOA !
Are there any available for the UCE?
When I disassembled the second motor I bought, I measured the rocker ratio at 1.27 on the intake and 1.26 on the exhaust.
I have never seen this short a ratio before and thought I must have made an incorrect measurement giving a bit for manufacturing tolerances :-).
With non adjustable rockers I guess we would need to use appropriate measures like longer purhrods and lash caps to maintain correct valve train geometry.
Dunno about adjustable push rods :-X
I noticed the inlet valve tip had deteriorated after only 9000kms in the second motor which made me think lash caps should be an inclusion.
There seems to be a fairly large amount of pre-load on the hydraulic lifters.
In days gone by with serious hydraulic grinds, we used to adjust the hydraulics for "zero" pre-load, to stop the lifters "pumping up".
So with a bit of machining of a spacer under the rocker arm pedestals the pre-load could be reduced a lot.
The NT has 130 kmh speed limits and unlimited speed limits in some places.
I would like for my Bullet to be capable of sustained 120 kmh cruise and more there when needed, eg overtaking.
Its a least 300 kms between major townships here as well.
I don't know if you blokes know what a road train is, but its very scary having one overtake you when you are doing 100kmh, and it is doing 120kmh.
And as for those jolly bounders on Harleys...........
So if you feel like it, please flick me your thoughts, ideas, experiences and never do's with the UCE
Thanks heaps you blokes


Ice

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Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 06:35:51 am
 Thoughts ? For the Indian Domestic market RE produces a carburetted 350 Twin Spark UCE which has the head drilled and tapped for dual spark plugs.

 Our UCE 500 lump has the flat spot on the head casting for the second plug but is not drilled.  To my way of thinking that is an invitation to fit a manual de comp and dust bin the auto de comp shenanigans as well as the starter motor and sprag.
  With those bits removed and a manual de comp fitted and used in the same fashion as with the Iron Barrel, cranking and compression pressure constraints are removed and roll back and sprag worries are eliminated.

 I've not done it yet so can't speak definitively about it. Yet.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 09:22:20 am by Ice »
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Chilliman

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Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 11:23:41 am
Jesus you guys,
where were you all hiding?
I was smacking my head against, I dont know, a beer can trying to find UCE info and you all come out of the.....not wood work........metal work !
I am very pleased to know there are UCE officianados out there.
Very pleased and grateful you are prepared to share you knowledge, experiences and opinions with me.


ace.cafe

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Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 12:20:31 pm
G'day you blokes,
Thanks for the technical offerings.
I knew there would be people out there who "spoke the language".
I wondered how you got on with the decompression system on the exhaust with a re-profile with reduced base circles, which was making me look at long duration modest lift cams, that would maybe reduce cranking compression a little.
Someone mentioned something I never thought about and that is backward crank motion when the motor is switched off upsetting the sprag clutch.
Also, I saw those adjustable rockers on the ACE site this morning...WHOA !
Are there any available for the UCE?
When I disassembled the second motor I bought, I measured the rocker ratio at 1.27 on the intake and 1.26 on the exhaust.
I have never seen this short a ratio before and thought I must have made an incorrect measurement giving a bit for manufacturing tolerances :-).
With non adjustable rockers I guess we would need to use appropriate measures like longer purhrods and lash caps to maintain correct valve train geometry.
Dunno about adjustable push rods :-X
I noticed the inlet valve tip had deteriorated after only 9000kms in the second motor which made me think lash caps should be an inclusion.
There seems to be a fairly large amount of pre-load on the hydraulic lifters.
In days gone by with serious hydraulic grinds, we used to adjust the hydraulics for "zero" pre-load, to stop the lifters "pumping up".
So with a bit of machining of a spacer under the rocker arm pedestals the pre-load could be reduced a lot.
The NT has 130 kmh speed limits and unlimited speed limits in some places.
I would like for my Bullet to be capable of sustained 120 kmh cruise and more there when needed, eg overtaking.
Its a least 300 kms between major townships here as well.
I don't know if you blokes know what a road train is, but its very scary having one overtake you when you are doing 100kmh, and it is doing 120kmh.
And as for those jolly bounders on Harleys...........
So if you feel like it, please flick me your thoughts, ideas, experiences and never do's with the UCE
Thanks heaps you blokes

I was not involved with the Matt Capri Continental GT Bonneville LSR attempt,  but I have been involved with various other vintage RE racing teams such as the Bullet Whisperer's British Historic Racing Series 500.
Mostly, we do the Fireball 535 street machines.

Here is a link to the whole development of the Ace GT head, from concept to finish. It's very long, but plenty of info there, including difficulties encountered along the way.
This head can go on any UCE. It works with stock cams, or some aftermarket cams.

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,20474.0.html

The high ratio roller rockers are part of the head design, and won't fit on a standard UCE head. We designed a completely new head to add design features which were not able to be modified into the standard UCE head.

Also, member Aus_GT works at a cam grinder in Oz, and he has some ideas for UCE cams of his own. We have talked about it, and he has ordered one of my Ace GT heads.

The stock head can be modified to good effect, but we felt that there were some issues with the stock head that we wanted to overcome, and so we went with the new billet head design. We designed cams for the UCE which were simply the Fireball cams translated to UCE lobes for roller tappets.
32/78
78/32
.357" lobe lift x rocker ratio.
We knew that this grind worked with the higher rocker ratios that we prototyped in the Iron Barrel roller rocker Fireball models that we produced previously, and gave good street results, so we went with that.

There is more than one way to skin this cat, and we chose to do it our way, with the billet head, high ratio rockers, and moderate cams that have slightly smaller base circles, working as a top end conversion  package.

There are limits to the output based on the EFI throttle body diameter limiting rpm extension. Most efforts are based on the stock throttle body,  and thus all come in around a similar peak power number. The differences come in the shape of the torque curve between idle and peak.
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Otto_Ing

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Reply #15 on: August 29, 2017, 01:42:01 pm
I'm going to have to bore out that throttle body...


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Reply #16 on: August 29, 2017, 05:19:42 pm


Otto_Ing

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Reply #17 on: August 29, 2017, 05:27:16 pm
140mph on an Enfiled!! You "blokes" should talk to this guy!! 
 
http://www.bikesportnews.com/news/news-detail/2017-classic-tt-linsdell-achieves-140mph-royal-enfield-dream

RJ

That's one fast bullet.  8)


however that's with methanol, short stroke, 8500rpm and the engine is finished after a thou miles. I want my engine to be good for 50k miles, run with pump gas and perform as good as possible within those limits.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:52:05 pm by oTTo »


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Reply #19 on: August 29, 2017, 06:29:23 pm
That's one fast bullet.  8)


however that's with methanol, short stroke, 8500rpm and the engine is finished after a thou miles. I want my engine to be good for 50k miles, run with pump gas and perform as good as possible within those limits.
That is on petrol, not methanol, which is not permitted on the I.O.M. circuit. Our own racers run on short circuits using methanol, but we experimented with petrol a few years back and gained over 2 bhp from the 500. Sadly, we ran out of time at the dyno and I never had the chance to fine tune the timing and carburation to get the best results from the petrol and we just put the methanol carb back on and carried on like that. But ... watch this space  ;)
 Incidentally, methanol would not work on the I.O.M., as, at approx 7 mpg, our racers might not even complete a lap, without the need to refuel !
 B.W.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 06:31:26 pm by Bullet Whisperer »


Otto_Ing

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Reply #20 on: August 29, 2017, 07:05:58 pm
I'm watching closely B.W.   ;)


gashousegorilla

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Reply #21 on: August 30, 2017, 03:14:46 am
G'day you blokes,
Thanks for the technical offerings.
I knew there would be people out there who "spoke the language".
I wondered how you got on with the decompression system on the exhaust with a re-profile with reduced base circles, which was making me look at long duration modest lift cams, that would maybe reduce cranking compression a little.
Someone mentioned something I never thought about and that is backward crank motion when the motor is switched off upsetting the sprag clutch.
Also, I saw those adjustable rockers on the ACE site this morning...WHOA !
Are there any available for the UCE?
When I disassembled the second motor I bought, I measured the rocker ratio at 1.27 on the intake and 1.26 on the exhaust.
I have never seen this short a ratio before and thought I must have made an incorrect measurement giving a bit for manufacturing tolerances :-).
With non adjustable rockers I guess we would need to use appropriate measures like longer purhrods and lash caps to maintain correct valve train geometry.
Dunno about adjustable push rods :-X
I noticed the inlet valve tip had deteriorated after only 9000kms in the second motor which made me think lash caps should be an inclusion.
There seems to be a fairly large amount of pre-load on the hydraulic lifters.
In days gone by with serious hydraulic grinds, we used to adjust the hydraulics for "zero" pre-load, to stop the lifters "pumping up".
So with a bit of machining of a spacer under the rocker arm pedestals the pre-load could be reduced a lot.
The NT has 130 kmh speed limits and unlimited speed limits in some places.
I would like for my Bullet to be capable of sustained 120 kmh cruise and more there when needed, eg overtaking.
Its a least 300 kms between major townships here as well.
I don't know if you blokes know what a road train is, but its very scary having one overtake you when you are doing 100kmh, and it is doing 120kmh.
And as for those jolly bounders on Harleys...........
So if you feel like it, please flick me your thoughts, ideas, experiences and never do's with the UCE
Thanks heaps you blokes


  Ummmm.... a lot there !  LOL !  ;)  Well for starters, it is not that difficult to get a very near to stock bike to cruise at a sustained 75 mph indicated... with a bit more when you need it.   Hell, that's just intake and exhaust mods .   And you would be surprised  what a stock intake cam re-phase would do for your mid-range and top end. AND.. lower your " static " cylinder pressure . You would probably want another 500 RPMs at least on your rev limiter, because you'l be making power right up to that stock red line and be disappointed and wanting more.   You'll will be up on that stock limiter very quickly in first, second, and third.  I have found 6500 rpms on these bottom ends are not a problem...  I don't live there now, but hit it routinely enough.     Tune it up with the correct fueling... and it's pretty decent  for not a lot of out lay.   

  Generally you will find with the stock motors 160- 170 psi cranking compression.. WITHOUT the auto de-comp installed.   130-140 psi initially,  and then maybe 80 psi as the exhaust lifter pumps from it's erratic behavior WITH the de-comp installed.  ;D    Honestly I have found the auto-comp to do very little if anything to protect the sprag .   Hell... my original sprag lasted longer running over 200 psi in my cylinder, then many stock motors out there WITH the decomp installed.  Take a look at it, and you will see it only works in one direction.  It makes the bike easier to kick start and that is about it.  The early motors 2009-2010 I believe, came with a earlier version of the sprag, whic was crap.  After that they came out with a much improved one, which has held up well by and large.   A couple/few failures of the newer sprag here or there maybe that I have heard about ?   BUT , nothing like it was in the earlier years of these bikes !     So with that spare motor you have there that you are going to work on, I would suggest putting in that newer and better sprag if it doesn't have one.    No kick starter on my bike... never had one.  And no troubles with that new sprag.

  Lash Caps and Rods ARE your friend. Those stock rockers ARE HEAVY man. Unfinished foundry room floor scraps of pig iron more like it !  :o ;D    Yeah, the could use a bit of work.  But, whats wrong with adjustable rods ?   Hell, good chromoly adjustables are damn near indestructible .   Provided it is a short adjustment range  down at the bottom and not at the top.  Man... I have abused the hell out of mine and still good. Through more the one or two different top end and Cam configurations.    You CAN buy different length Rods ever time you want to play ?   But why ?    Pretty common practice for the Harley boys to use the adjustables with Cam changes and top end work.  Don't hear them having problems either ?  Anyway, they ain't bad I have found . ;)

  I did have problems lifter pump.   To be honest, I really don't like these stock hydraulics.   I went to solid rollers and haven't looked back.  But duel rate or beehive springs will help .  Couldn't find any anti-pump hydraulics in this size.  I do suppose a spacer inserted inside the stock hydraulic lifter would limit plungers travel  and act in a similar fashion...


Gentleman too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=A46njZAEzkw

Its amazing what can be achieved "in a shed".

   Yes it is...  Linsdell IS the man .   Matt Capri who ?!    :o ;D 
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Chilliman

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Reply #22 on: August 30, 2017, 10:57:05 am
Thanks once again to you learned Enfield-O-Nauts for the wealth of information.
I wondered if the bloke with the motor that ran harder on petrol than methanol, was runnning much compression.
I have seen engines run on methanol that fell over at about 7000rpm because of a lower than optimum HAC with the lower CR, which failed to ignite the methanol properly, but the same engine ran like a fool on avaiation gas to around 10,000 rpm.
My remarks about valve train/rocker arm geometry are in honesty, based on engines running .800" + valve lift, where if you ignored rocker arm geometry and had a rocker ride off the side of a valve stem/lash cap all hell broke loose.
Maybe I should snap out of it get my thoughts into perspective.
Mate that second engine........yep those rocker arms are kind of way strong but when I looked at the first one, my mind made me think of something bullet proof from a steam engine somewhere   :)
I have a set of 535 valves here in the box, but I haven't even had a chance to compare them to the 500 valves.
Old mate Arpit from Royal Enfield King has looked after me well with stock parts.
Those beehive springs........I think Comp Cams make them and no doubut others.
I broke out the old porting gear a while back and gave the head from the second motor a bit of a scratch around, so hopefully it will work well with what I end up with.
Thanks for the opinions about the sprags too. It was something I saw posted somewhere and thought it was worth a query.
Those Fireball cams look worth a try.
When converting to mechanical lifters do you have any problems with flank wear since there are no opening ramps on the lobes.
Again I might be over thinking something that might be a problem with very large grinds that are not a problem here.
A couple of pics of the modest head we have
 


ace.cafe

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Reply #23 on: August 30, 2017, 01:58:36 pm
Looks nice.
What are the port diameters,  and do you have flow data?

The Fireball cams are translated from solid flat lifter profile,  and are not high intensity, so I think they would work fine with solid rollers too. They are not real aggressive like you described,  but they do the job.

Regarding lifter pump, it's all down to valve train stability.  If the valve train stays in control,  the lifters won't pump up. We have no lifter pump problems. Our GTS use the stock hydraulic lifters.

GHG's cams work with his modified solids.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 04:48:15 pm by ace.cafe »
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Chilliman

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Reply #24 on: August 31, 2017, 12:55:19 am
Good morning all,
It's a brisk 20 degrees C here this morning. Aweful chilly.

Re those heads, the valve seats are standard 500 diameter and the ports are 37mm at the intake port entrance and 35mm at the exit of the exhaust.
No flow figures yet, but we are attempting to resurrect an old flow bench I used for over 30 years.
It used an 8-71 Roots blower driven by a 5hp 3 phase reversible electric motor, so it blew through exhaust and drew through intakes.
It would hold (now we are going back) 20" H2O through a 4V 351 Cleveland intake valve at 1" of valve lift, so it had plenty of capacity.
The bloke who has it now doesn't use it but won't part with it.
Might make another.
Those "squareish" lobed cams I described were along the line of mechanical roller cams in top fuel and blown alcohol engines.
Crazy cams with 300 degrees of advertised duration and 288 degrees at .050".
Like I said, I should snap out of it and get the right perspective about my Enfield, which make me very grateful for the offerings and opinions of blokes who have actual hands on experience with these engines.
Mr Henshaw pops into my mind.
What a great engineer. Lots of experience and lots of empirical knowledge.
You can't do better than working reality........suck it and see.
Like I said once, you can't race a flow bench, only use it to get you in the ballpark.
Re those Fireball style cams, can they be bought outright or do they have a regrind or exchange system available do you know?
What are you thoughts on a "piggy back" for the EFI module, for tuning ignition and fuel mapping?   
Thanks all


gashousegorilla

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Reply #25 on: August 31, 2017, 02:35:11 am
Looks nice.
What are the port diameters,  and do you have flow data?

The Fireball cams are translated from solid flat lifter profile,  and are not high intensity, so I think they would work fine with solid rollers too. They are not real aggressive like you described,  but they do the job.

Regarding lifter pump, it's all down to valve train stability.  If the valve train stays in control,  the lifters won't pump up. We have no lifter pump problems. Our GTS use the stock hydraulic lifters.

GHG's cams work with his modified solids.

   They work with the Hydraulics as well.  Better springs ARE certainly a must.   Lifter pump issues that I had , were with the first year motor .  Internal clearance in the lifters were just TOO damn tight... they simply would not bleed down. 

 
Good morning all,
It's a brisk 20 degrees C here this morning. Aweful chilly.

Re those heads, the valve seats are standard 500 diameter and the ports are 37mm at the intake port entrance and 35mm at the exit of the exhaust.
No flow figures yet, but we are attempting to resurrect an old flow bench I used for over 30 years.
It used an 8-71 Roots blower driven by a 5hp 3 phase reversible electric motor, so it blew through exhaust and drew through intakes.
It would hold (now we are going back) 20" H2O through a 4V 351 Cleveland intake valve at 1" of valve lift, so it had plenty of capacity.
The bloke who has it now doesn't use it but won't part with it.
Might make another.
Those "squareish" lobed cams I described were along the line of mechanical roller cams in top fuel and blown alcohol engines.
Crazy cams with 300 degrees of advertised duration and 288 degrees at .050".
Like I said, I should snap out of it and get the right perspective about my Enfield, which make me very grateful for the offerings and opinions of blokes who have actual hands on experience with these engines.
Mr Henshaw pops into my mind.
What a great engineer. Lots of experience and lots of empirical knowledge.
You can't do better than working reality........suck it and see.
Like I said once, you can't race a flow bench, only use it to get you in the ballpark.
Re those Fireball style cams, can they be bought outright or do they have a regrind or exchange system available do you know?
What are you thoughts on a "piggy back" for the EFI module, for tuning ignition and fuel mapping?   
Thanks all

   Beautiful work on that head Chilli.  I notice you put a high polish on your intake ports, as apposed to a texture.   I usually polish the exhaust port and chamber, but leave a high swirl texture in the intake port to break the boundary layer a bit.   What are you thoughts on that ?

   I think your best bet all around as far as a piggy back deal, would be the PC-V.   It will give you full control of your fueling AND ignition.... plus a whole bunch of stuff that you probably don't need. It's a pretty damn powerful tuning aid.    You can share fueling and ignition maps with other and down load them ... try then out , tune from there and etc.  Obviously you will need a Dyno to tune , to get it perfect.  Or an additional Auto tuner  that Dynojet offers, which incorporates a wide band o2....Works off of a base map , set a target AFR , then go have at it on the road.   Haven't tried one of those auto tune deals, but I think it would be fun . It's the same software that they use on the Dynojet  Dyno's, to quickly get the tuner to the targets that he is shooting for I understand.

 EJK makes one as well for the Enfields....I hear good things about it.     Less expensive then the PC-V, but not as versatile.   No ignition control, and I don't think you can remove fuel but only add.  Also no ability to extend the rev limiter.
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


ace.cafe

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Reply #26 on: August 31, 2017, 09:36:16 pm
Good morning all,
It's a brisk 20 degrees C here this morning. Aweful chilly.

Re those heads, the valve seats are standard 500 diameter and the ports are 37mm at the intake port entrance and 35mm at the exit of the exhaust.
No flow figures yet, but we are attempting to resurrect an old flow bench I used for over 30 years.
It used an 8-71 Roots blower driven by a 5hp 3 phase reversible electric motor, so it blew through exhaust and drew through intakes.
It would hold (now we are going back) 20" H2O through a 4V 351 Cleveland intake valve at 1" of valve lift, so it had plenty of capacity.
The bloke who has it now doesn't use it but won't part with it.
Might make another.
Those "squareish" lobed cams I described were along the line of mechanical roller cams in top fuel and blown alcohol engines.
Crazy cams with 300 degrees of advertised duration and 288 degrees at .050".
Like I said, I should snap out of it and get the right perspective about my Enfield, which make me very grateful for the offerings and opinions of blokes who have actual hands on experience with these engines.
Mr Henshaw pops into my mind.
What a great engineer. Lots of experience and lots of empirical knowledge.
You can't do better than working reality........suck it and see.
Like I said once, you can't race a flow bench, only use it to get you in the ballpark.
Re those Fireball style cams, can they be bought outright or do they have a regrind or exchange system available do you know?
What are you thoughts on a "piggy back" for the EFI module, for tuning ignition and fuel mapping?   
Thanks all

Cams are outrighr. No core trade in required.

I assume you plan a large throttle body or carb for the 37mm inlet port.?

We use the Power Commander with good results for the standard size GT EFI.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Chilliman

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Reply #27 on: August 31, 2017, 11:32:36 pm
G'day,
Thanks for the remarks about the head.
After racing and developing heads over the years I have never seen a motor run poorly from too smooth a port.
I have heard lots of arguments about smooth/textured ports for decades.
Lots of stories by "experts" maybe covering up a fundamental flaw in an engine, with a bit of BS  :)
The argument about too "shiny" ports, particularly intakes, was that fuel particles would drop out of (suspension) the dynamic emulsion in the ports, hit the wall of the port and splatter, forming a wet layer on the port wall, of the refrerred to as "film adhesion".
So if we go back to the engines being built in the 70's for argument sake, (where a lot of the urban motor myths come from), and take example of where this kind problem reared it's head.
The Ford 302 Boss motor.....302 Windsor with 4V Cleveland heads on it.....5 litres of motor with intake ports you could put your fist in.
Chuck in a huge flat tappet cam, a couple of 660 centre squirter Holleys on one of those horrid old Edelbrock dual 4 barrel high rise manifolds with the massive plenum, and that nice shiny port job.......well that motor didn't boogey until about 7000 rpm.
It suffered from insufficient "gas speed" through the ports which led to fuel particle drop out, (because of poorly atomised fuel particels from too big a carb or injector nozzle (eg. pool balls instead of grains of salt sized fuel articles) wet intake port walls and a tendency for the "tuners" to see wet spark plugs, jet the thing back heaps and end up with the motor generally running like a dog.
The problem is worse with methanol.
Blokes with sprint cars on 360 Chevs with 2.25" injector throttle bodies.
Back in those days injection was a bit raw and wet plugs foold a lot of tuners into backing off fuel the blowing a motor.
Similalry, the blokes who had the 1000 CFM Dominator sitting on a single plane manifold on a highly tuned 350 Chevy. Same deal.
The tuners would say "everything in the engine is top quality and well tuned. The problem must be those shiny ports."
Not really, just a bad choice of component combination.
Another excuse I used to hear about poor engine performance was that "the ring ends had lined up and the motor is losing compression".
Rubbish, ring ends might line up once in a blue moon for a milli second, because rings rotate at about 1 revolution per 1000 RPM in 4 cycle engines.
If you ever get the chance, go have a look at (ultimate performance) the heads on a Forumla 1 engine. All the ports are like a mirror.
If you ask you the engineer if the ports are too shiny, he would slap you on the shoulder, laugh and say 'you know a bit about engines do you?"  :) thinking you were having a joke with him/her.
My opinion is only one man's opinion, one of many opinions, but I can say it's my observation from over 40 years of specifically engine work, that a nicely finished port is never a problem. But, I might be wrong.
My main detractors over the years, always accused me of being too fussy and they used to hate it when we won and I would stand there and say "Who's a fussy boy then, who's a fussy boy?"
Alrighty then...........yep I reckon the Power Commander V with the auto tune is the go. Not too many dynos around Darwin.
To the guy with the cams, could you tell me where I can get them and the cost please ( if that is approriate here).
Really enjoying this forum and talking to you blokes.
Feels like I have been pulled out of the old shed and dusted off and made useful again.
Thanks all and have a good one.
     


ace.cafe

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Reply #28 on: September 01, 2017, 12:22:08 am
Please contact me by private message or email. The website policy is not to do business on the forum.

Regarding the shiny ports, there are different conditions in street engines vs racing engines like F1. Also in carburetor vs injection. Most street engines run at midrange rpm for the most part, while F1 engines operate almost exclusively at top rpms. Simply a difference in applications.

I worked with the late Joe Mondello for years. Perhaps you have heard of him. He specified 60 grit inlet port finish, and shiny exhaust port finish. The reasons described were similar to your comments about fuel drop out. His co-invention of the wet flow bench with flourescing dye proved out his points. He also used sharp discrete transitions between valve seat flow angles to shear the fuel droplets back into the atomized condition upon entering the chamber.

My recommendation for port injection is to have shiny throttle body and manifold, and shiny port up until the injector location, and then use a textured  port from there to the valve seat. The injector typically squirts on a closed valve, so there is plenty on the floor.

Anyway, consider the application and most commonly used rpm range and port speeds in light of my comments,  please.

Regarding the 37mm inlet port, I would definitely consider a corresponding size for throttle body and injector manifold ,  such as 1.5" or 38mm with a port like that. I am sure that you recognize the port speed and energy ramifications of transition to such a larger port I.D. from a 3mm smaller throttle body and manifold.
Additionally,  the air speed reaches about .6 mach at around 6250 rpm with the 535 and a 34mm inlett, so using a 37mm inlet implies higher rpm range, up to beyond 7000. This exacerbates reduced port speeds at lower and midrange rpms, generally moving the torque peak further up the rpm curve. The Power Commander allows rev limiter increases only up to 6500 rpm (AFAIK), so this is something to consider in your build approach.

We did the cylinder head work for the Bullet Whisperer's 500 racer, and it sports a 38mm smoothbore carburetor for a racing redline of 8200 rpm on a 500cc displacement. It has 13.5:1 compression on methanol, and produces approximately 53-54 hp at the crank.
We also regularly get 35 rear wheel hp (about 42hp at the crank) from our street Fireballs  with a 32mm carb at about 6000 rpm.
It's all about setting the appropriate combination for the application.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 12:36:32 am by ace.cafe »
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Chilliman

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Reply #29 on: September 01, 2017, 02:04:30 am
Gday again,
Most excellent information all round.
Yes I have heard of Joe Mondello and read some of his technical papers over the years.
As I said my opinion is only one of many and you having a more educated opinion thanks to facilities like wet flouro flow bench equipment is something I would only have dreamed of.
Like I tell people, I am probabaly not the best engine person in the world...........probably just Austalia         hahhaaaaaaahahaaaaaaaaaaa
All jokes aside I really have an apetite for information and you just gave me some.
I will go find your email and contact you.
Thanks heaps again.
It's amazing who is lurking out there
Cheers


gashousegorilla

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Reply #30 on: September 01, 2017, 02:25:05 am
G'day,
Thanks for the remarks about the head.
After racing and developing heads over the years I have never seen a motor run poorly from too smooth a port.
I have heard lots of arguments about smooth/textured ports for decades.
Lots of stories by "experts" maybe covering up a fundamental flaw in an engine, with a bit of BS  :)
The argument about too "shiny" ports, particularly intakes, was that fuel particles would drop out of (suspension) the dynamic emulsion in the ports, hit the wall of the port and splatter, forming a wet layer on the port wall, of the refrerred to as "film adhesion".
So if we go back to the engines being built in the 70's for argument sake, (where a lot of the urban motor myths come from), and take example of where this kind problem reared it's head.
The Ford 302 Boss motor.....302 Windsor with 4V Cleveland heads on it.....5 litres of motor with intake ports you could put your fist in.
Chuck in a huge flat tappet cam, a couple of 660 centre squirter Holleys on one of those horrid old Edelbrock dual 4 barrel high rise manifolds with the massive plenum, and that nice shiny port job.......well that motor didn't boogey until about 7000 rpm.
It suffered from insufficient "gas speed" through the ports which led to fuel particle drop out, (because of poorly atomised fuel particels from too big a carb or injector nozzle (eg. pool balls instead of grains of salt sized fuel articles) wet intake port walls and a tendency for the "tuners" to see wet spark plugs, jet the thing back heaps and end up with the motor generally running like a dog.
The problem is worse with methanol.
Blokes with sprint cars on 360 Chevs with 2.25" injector throttle bodies.
Back in those days injection was a bit raw and wet plugs foold a lot of tuners into backing off fuel the blowing a motor.
Similalry, the blokes who had the 1000 CFM Dominator sitting on a single plane manifold on a highly tuned 350 Chevy. Same deal.
The tuners would say "everything in the engine is top quality and well tuned. The problem must be those shiny ports."
Not really, just a bad choice of component combination.
Another excuse I used to hear about poor engine performance was that "the ring ends had lined up and the motor is losing compression".
Rubbish, ring ends might line up once in a blue moon for a milli second, because rings rotate at about 1 revolution per 1000 RPM in 4 cycle engines.
If you ever get the chance, go have a look at (ultimate performance) the heads on a Forumla 1 engine. All the ports are like a mirror.
If you ask you the engineer if the ports are too shiny, he would slap you on the shoulder, laugh and say 'you know a bit about engines do you?"  :) thinking you were having a joke with him/her.
My opinion is only one man's opinion, one of many opinions, but I can say it's my observation from over 40 years of specifically engine work, that a nicely finished port is never a problem. But, I might be wrong.
My main detractors over the years, always accused me of being too fussy and they used to hate it when we won and I would stand there and say "Who's a fussy boy then, who's a fussy boy?"
Alrighty then...........yep I reckon the Power Commander V with the auto tune is the go. Not too many dynos around Darwin.
To the guy with the cams, could you tell me where I can get them and the cost please ( if that is approriate here).
Really enjoying this forum and talking to you blokes.
Feels like I have been pulled out of the old shed and dusted off and made useful again.
Thanks all and have a good one.
   

  Hahaha !   Oh no, I appreciate your opinion.  Good stuff Chilli .  Looking at your intake port opening.. . is that a bell mouth ?
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.


Chilliman

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Reply #31 on: September 01, 2017, 08:00:48 am
Yes it is in fact.
Ace.cafe spoke about the problems going from a small manifold to a larger port, and not knowing what is available in terms of EFI components, thought I would try and play it safer with that shape.
I can always grind more out for larger manifolds or make small sleeves to take that jump away from a small manifold to a larger port.
It's a bit of fiddling but I have time on my hands.


gizzo

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Reply #32 on: September 01, 2017, 12:54:44 pm
I got nothing to contribute, just chiming in to say i'm enjoying listening to the grownups talking  ;) carry on, gentlemen.
simon from south Australia
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Chilliman

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Reply #33 on: September 04, 2017, 11:10:34 pm
Gday again,
Had a great Father's Day here and just got back from a few days away.
There sure has been a lot of information put out over the years about cylinder head modification and all sorts of science theories to back them up.
People quote Reynolds numbers, Moody Charts, golf balls and flow bench figures.
I have tried using that math attempting to get to the middle of the ball park but sometimes the theory doesn't work in practice and sometimes it does.
Time, persistence and testing, testing, testing seem to be the only way to find out what works and what doesn't.
As was said, it's all about your combination of components.
I used a flow bench for a long time (30 years) and I would be a liar if I didn't admit to doing some outstandingly successful head work, then taking the heads off and whacking them back on the flow bench and trying to make equations that made the figures on the bench equate to what was happening at the track, so the results could be reliably reproduced.
I have never seen an engine perform poorly with polished ports, but others may have I'm sure.
Often I see the quote that polishing will only make 1 or 2% more flow than textured ports.
As the guy said, shape has more to do with flow than size or finish.
My father used to say to me that I went too far with my work, that 98% was good enough, and my reply was if I took the time to make something 98% it took only a little more effort to make it 100%.
I often wondered if the textured port blokes were just too tired after all that porting,
to take the time to go from rough to smooth, and then be happy to find out that rough will give you 98% :D .....no offence to the "rough blokes."
One or two percent can win you a race.
W.M Kays and M.E Crawford put out a great paper (book) in 1993 about flow characteristics for just about any imagineable condition.
Anyway, I have chased up some cams and hopefully will have this other motor rebuilt in the not too distant future.
When I split the crank case I found the stud that mounts the primary drive tensioner was loose, and this motor had been shipped to me as dry and I reckon almost a litre of oil came out.
Seems like an aweful lot of oil hiding in there that doesn't drain out at oil changes.
I'm outa here


Chilliman

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Reply #34 on: September 17, 2017, 09:11:49 am
Howdy all

I spotted a forum talk about C5 UCE motor camshaft spindles and heaps of talk about the standard cams.

For anyone who is interested, here are the specs from a 2013 C5 with 9000kms on the clock.
These are the standard cam specs as degreed by me in the old tin shed with Mitutoyo, and Moore and Wright measuring stuff, and a filthy big degree wheel.

Royal Enfield C5 UCE Standard Cams Specifications.

Inlet Open Degrees @ Tappet Lift:

                        .008”                17'     BTDC
                        .012”                11'
                        .020”                3.5'
                        .050”                11.5'  ATDC

Inlet Closes:

                       .050”                 26'     ABDC
                       .020”                 42'     
                       .012”                 53.5'
                       .008”                 57'

Inlet Duration @ Tappet Lift:

                        254'    @ .008”
                        244'    @ .012”
                        225.5' @ .020”
                        194'    @ .050” 

Inlet Lobe Centreline:

                        109'

Max. Inlet Lobe lift:

                        .286”

Exhaust Open Degrees @ Tappet Lift:

                        .008”                62'       BBDC
                        .012”                55'
                        .020”                47.5' 
                        .050”                31.5'

Exhaust Closing Degrees @ Tappet Lift:

                        .050”                15'      BTDC
                        .020”                0'       
                        .012”                7'        ATDC
                        .008”                12.5'
       
                 
Exhaust Duration @ Tappet Lift:

                      254'    @   .008”     
                      242'    @   .012”
                      227'    @   .020”
                     198.5'  @   .050”       

Exhaust Lobe Centreline:

                               114'

Max. Exhaust Lobe Lift:
   
                               .287”

Camshaft Lobe Centre Angle:
 
                               111.5'

I typed these numbers with one finger and one eye after a few beers so it should be close to the mark :-).


Aus.GT

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Reply #35 on: September 20, 2017, 07:42:04 am
Howdy all

I spotted a forum talk about C5 UCE motor camshaft spindles and heaps of talk about the standard cams.

For anyone who is interested, here are the specs from a 2013 C5 with 9000kms on the clock.
These are the standard cam specs as degreed by me in the old tin shed with Mitutoyo, and Moore and Wright measuring stuff, and a filthy big degree wheel.

Royal Enfield C5 UCE Standard Cams Specifications.

Inlet Open Degrees @ Tappet Lift:

                        .008”                17'     BTDC
                        .012”                11'
                        .020”                3.5'
                        .050”                11.5'  ATDC

Inlet Closes:

                       .050”                 26'     ABDC
                       .020”                 42'     
                       .012”                 53.5'
                       .008”                 57'

Inlet Duration @ Tappet Lift:

                        254'    @ .008”
                        244'    @ .012”
                        225.5' @ .020”
                        194'    @ .050” 

Inlet Lobe Centreline:

                        109'

Max. Inlet Lobe lift:

                        .286”

Exhaust Open Degrees @ Tappet Lift:

                        .008”                62'       BBDC
                        .012”                55'
                        .020”                47.5' 
                        .050”                31.5'

Exhaust Closing Degrees @ Tappet Lift:

                        .050”                15'      BTDC
                        .020”                0'       
                        .012”                7'        ATDC
                        .008”                12.5'
       
                 
Exhaust Duration @ Tappet Lift:

                      254'    @   .008”     
                      242'    @   .012”
                      227'    @   .020”
                     198.5'  @   .050”       

Exhaust Lobe Centreline:

                               114'

Max. Exhaust Lobe Lift:
   
                               .287”

Camshaft Lobe Centre Angle:
 
                               111.5'

I typed these numbers with one finger and one eye after a few beers so it should be close to the mark :-).

Hey Chilliman welcome,

Those cam numbers are pretty much what I got when I cam doctored them.
I'm in the process of soon making some. Have now got a gear hobb to cut the gears they have a weird tooth profile.
Work will be getting a new nc machine that can cut the gears soonish.
Wondering what type of cam numbers your thinking of and whether you want Hydraulic or Solid roller profile? Cheers
1988 Gilera Saturno 500
2014 Continental GT
1985 Ducati Mille S2


Chilliman

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Reply #36 on: September 28, 2017, 08:15:03 am
Gday to you Aus.GT,
The UCE Bullet 500 is all new to me.
I am impressed I was in the ball park with my hand held stuff as compared to the cam doctor.
I sent a pair of cams away to a mob in northern NSW for them to look at (they also have a cam doctor) but it's been about 6 weeks and not a word back from them.
I hope there isn't an international gang of RE cam smugglers floating around.
They said there was a choice of about 6 or 7 profiles both hydraulic and mechanical.
Mate, I have been looking at the rocker arm set up on the UCE and I have this crazy idea.........it's adjustable............waiting for a mate to deliver some "borrowed" parts.
Iv'e mocked it up and the geometry looks good, and it's quite a bit lighter than the steel arm.
A bit of milling and machining involved I reckon, but you get out what you put in.
Iv'e heard about teeth problems with the UCE cams.
Profiles.........well I don't have a clue what is out there.
Ace Cafe has a grind that looks like a pearler, and he has done a mountain of research on the 500's.
That standard 500 gring is worse than some mower cams (literally) and as one bloke put it, that grind is why the 500's will idle at 1 rpm.
I have a head to whack on there and I am waiting to get some Ferrera valves and valve train bits back.
I have some 535 valves here that are a tiny bit larger than the 500 on the intake but I reckon I will wait for the others.
So thats about it. Waiting waiting waiting.


ace.cafe

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Reply #37 on: September 28, 2017, 01:12:51 pm
Aus_GT will have cams that are not regrind like mine. Mine have been reground on stock India made cams.
I am working on finishing a billet head for Aus_GT. I hope to work with him on cam sets when he is ready.
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