[Hoosier Bullet]

Pretty sure this has been covered, but I am not seeing a solution in the old posts.

Fireball 003 stripped for freshening up piston rings, decarbonising.  Wanted to inspect oil pump drive for abnormal wear, so opened timing chest.

Both cam spindles spin freely in their case holes.  There is not lateral movement, no rocking side to side.  On previous handling, spindles were completely fixed in position.  Not so now.

There is a gap between the 'flat' on the cam spindles and the matching 'flat' machined into the engine cases.  Both spindles same deal.

There is a witness mark in the engine cases where the spindle has been free to rotate, and the corner next to the flat has dug into the case material.    Both spindles same deal.

I went ahead and did a complete strip, wanting to take care of this issue.  In the process of splitting the cases, heat was applied with torch along the case halve seam.  So the cases got heated up overall a bit.  This was enough to 'lock' the spindles back down so that they could no longer spin.  Upon cooling, they could once more spin.

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

[ace.cafe]

There are supposed to be oversize cam spindles available for this sort of thing.  I don't know about availability.

It may be possible to build up the ones you have with spray welding,

Or, you could bore out the holes in the case, and press in some custom made bushings to restore the proper fit. Press in with at least .003" interference fit.

It is common to coat them with Wellseal or something like that, before pressing, to ensure that they are sealed oil tight.

If you need help, I had a meeting with the shop,  and they are getting on your heads now, and so they might be able to do something for it.

[Hoosier Bullet]

Thanks Tom.

The samrat adjustable spindles, as listed on Mr. H's website, specify they are only to be used on iron barrel engines up to 2005.

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-engine-timingside

(see 'adjustable cam spindles' by scrolling down).  Mine is a 2008 engine.  I suspect someone we both know well has fitted said aftermarket spindles to these 2008 engine cases.   

Interestingly, the OE issued cam spindles are listed in the parts book for a 2004 'Sixty Five' model, in standard bore, .003 or .006 oversize, as you have suggested to get. 

Note these are also stated to be used only on engines up to 2005.

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/4817/Crank_Case

see number 12. 

So what gives, are iron barrel engines from 2005 up supposed to use Electra X/AVL cam spindles, or something like that?

Thanks for the offer to let the shop take a look, but I'd like to try my hand first before farming it out. 

I am thinking of some of the heat/oil resistant epoxy, that I can cold weld in to place, and sand down as is needed for clearance of the cams rotation. 

Good or bad idea?

The main problem is that the 'flats' on the spindles don't reach to the corresponding 'flats' on the engine cases. 
Maybe I can bridge the gap between the two with the epoxy. 

As I said the spindles have zero 'rocking' in their bores, and can be frozen in place free from rotation with just a little bit of heat applied to the cases.

Or I could get the correct spindles, if I knew what to get.  Would probably get them in standard bore size.

Any other thoughts?  Bullet Whisperer?

[ace.cafe]

A high grade epoxy may do the trick.

[solg]

At the risk of stating the obvious. Have you considered Locktite 620 high temp stud and bearing mount?

[Hoosier Bullet]

At the risk of stating the obvious. Have you considered Locktite 620 high temp stud and bearing mount?

Had not thought of that.  It is a good suggestion, and maybe less intrusive/hassle than the epoxy. 

Or I could try both at the same time.  The things should really stay put then.

[Arizoni]

If one of the Loc-Tite compounds are used between a steel and aluminum surface, the surfaces will need to be coated with Loc-Tite Primer N.

Loc-Tite will not cure on a aluminum or stainless steel surface without the primer.

[Adrian II]

I can't for the life of me think in what way the '06 to '09 C.I. Bullets were any different to the '03 to '05 models...

Might be worth e-mailing Hitchcock's for verification.

A.

[Hoosier Bullet]

If one of the Loc-Tite compounds are used between a steel and aluminum surface, the surfaces will need to be coated with Loc-Tite Primer N.

Loc-Tite will not cure on a aluminum or stainless steel surface without the primer.

Thanks, I will do it that way.

[Hoosier Bullet]

I can't for the life of me think in what way the '06 to '09 C.I. Bullets were any different to the '03 to '05 models...

Might be worth e-mailing Hitchcock's for verification.

A.

I will contact H's and see what they know.  If anything meaningful is learned, I will report back here. 

I have see there are some eccentricities in the 'last of the iron barrels'  for example there is no evidence of the original breather stub on drive side crankcase; the undrilled stub is present on cases from late 2005 bikes.  The throw out pushrod is of larger diameter on the late 5 speed gearboxes compared to iron barrel 5 speeds into late 2006.  Just a few examples.  Maybe exact cam spindle configuration is one these odd things, too.

[Bullet Whisperer]

Just spotted this thread. Possibly time to make another short, shaky video 
 There are several ways to address this problem - the earlier Indian and Redditch spindles have longer flats, which give a better register against the flat ledge in the crankcase, so helping prevent any tendency to try and spin in the first place. Oversize spindles are available, but if you have access to a lathe and a fine knurling tool, you can knurl the fitted end of the spindles, then fit them with a smear of bearing fitting compound and that will hold them. Bear in mind if the knurling has a twisted pattern, the cam follower will rotate as it is pressed home, so allow for this if it is the case - a straight pattern knurl is better for ease of fitting. Indian spindles knurl easily, but there is no chance with Redditch ones - they are way too hard - make of that what you will 
 I have also had some spindles built up by metal spraying at a crankshaft / camshaft repair shop, to make an oversize fit, which worked well.
 B.W.

[Hoosier Bullet]

Just spotted this thread. Possibly time to make another short, shaky video 
 There are several ways to address this problem - the earlier Indian and Redditch spindles have longer flats, which give a better register against the flat ledge in the crankcase, so helping prevent any tendency to try and spin in the first place. Oversize spindles are available, but if you have access to a lathe and a fine knurling tool, you can knurl the fitted end of the spindles, then fit them with a smear of bearing fitting compound and that will hold them. Bear in mind if the knurling has a twisted pattern, the cam follower will rotate as it is pressed home, so allow for this if it is the case - a straight pattern knurl is better for ease of fitting. Indian spindles knurl easily, but there is no chance with Redditch ones - they are way too hard - make of that what you will 
 I have also had some spindles built up by metal spraying at a crankshaft / camshaft repair shop, to make an oversize fit, which worked well.
 B.W.

Thank you Bullet Whisperer.   On Monday I just met a machinist who is likely able to take on this job in the way you suggest.  For boring out a cylinder.  Maybe he would take this on as well. 

Do you think the epoxy is worthwhile, in addition to the knurling and bearing fixer compound?  Reason I want to try and do it 'belt and braces' is that I plan to put ratio rocker arms on this, so I want it all to be extra sturdy.   

[Adrian II]

Possibly time to make another short, shaky video 

See. all this stuff having to deal with RE Bullets has driven the poor man to drink! 

A.

[Yamahawk]

See. all this stuff having to deal with RE Bullets has driven the poor man to drink! 

A.

Three fingers 'neat', and he will be steady as a rock... hehe but just one!

[Arizoni]

See. all this stuff having to deal with RE Bullets has driven the poor man to drink!

A.

OK.  OK.  So it had one redeeming benefit but it still is a problem for him.  

[Bullet Whisperer]

I will put a little clip together after the weekend, meanwhile, we have to go racing 
 B.W.

[Bullet Whisperer]

Thank you Bullet Whisperer.   On Monday I just met a machinist who is likely able to take on this job in the way you suggest.  For boring out a cylinder.  Maybe he would take this on as well. 

Do you think the epoxy is worthwhile, in addition to the knurling and bearing fixer compound?  Reason I want to try and do it 'belt and braces' is that I plan to put ratio rocker arms on this, so I want it all to be extra sturdy.

Try to avoid the need for any epoxy - the knurling should do the trick alone, but used with a bearing fitting compound, such as Loctite, you should be able to make a first class job of it.
 B.W.

[Ice]

 Knurling plus Loc-Tite with primer is a wining combination for this sort or thing.