[tooseevee]

     The tale can now be told after my 17th cold kick start in a row this morning. They have been varying (since the 23rd of June) from up to 4 kicks, mostly 2-kicks and a few one-kicks. This morning was a one-kick I suppose because it had been out in the sun for a while planning how to do the video (my daughter's camera).

      Here's a short rundown for those who haven't followed this story since 2010:

       In the winter of 2013 I sent my head off to Ace for his (and Mondello's) wizardry. I spent the whole 2014 spring and summer reassembling, dialing in and tweaking. All Federal stuff had already been removed, wide open exhaust, Ace can and TM 32 were added.

         After dialed in (many, many carb adjustments and tweaking) it ran marvelously out on the road. I was amazed with it and could not have been happier.

           It was an easy kick starter, but only AFTER it had been started for the first time using the evil, hated, electric starter. I chased that problem from the very beginning (I HATE a bike I can't kick start) trying a hundred different tweaks and I NEVER solved it until the 23rd of June. I had NEVER gotten a cold kick start before that no matter WHAT I tried.

            I had had it in the back of my head all along this time that it "might have something to do" with the NGK plugs in this particular engine, but I never had the sense to overcome the dogma. I never liked the looks of the plugs when I pulled them and no matter how I tweaked the Mikuni it maddeningly made no difference at all. I even discussed it with Ace years ago. I think I went through at least a dozen NGKs. I finally got pissed off for the final time around the 20th of June after replacing a plug again and not getting even an electric start out of it. I pulled the NGK, got my 4-pound sledge out and smashed it in the driveway, went immediately to eBay and ordered a 4-pack of Champion plugs Free Shipping

          They arrived on the 23rd of June. I put one in and got an immediate cold, first-start-of-the-day, 3-kick kick start I could not believe it myself and could only explain it with airy theories about 9.8:1 compression, change in chamber shape and the spark being blown out, etc., etc.. Cold fuel, gremlins, pay back for the evil I've done 

           Let me also say that NOTHING was changed except the plug. ALL my mods had been done before this season even started. I would not shit you guys because if I got caught I would never live it down. It's the god'shonest truth. A simple change of plugs solved this whole painful, frustrating problem.

          I have no excuse for not trying this before, but I always thought it HAD to be the carb. I also let myself be a victim of NGK dogma.

           I welcome comments if anybody thinks they've got a theory. But please don't tell me stuff I should have done that I probably already did and tried a dozen times since May of 2014.

           A simple change of plug brand has solved what I've been chasing since then. Here's the video (I hope it works). The engine sounds different than it does live, but I guess everything does.

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/contents/view?contentsToken=1499610199238CaZHKZ9&currentIndex=1
   

[tooseevee]

       It was the plug, dummy. The plug.

        (Yes, I DO feel like an idiot).

[DanB]

Nice 2CV!!!  Outstanding find.

You made that look damn easy. What was the plug number you used?

[Ice]

CONGRATS brother ! 

 Sometimes I could swear these motors are somehow kin to shovel heads and pan heads.

[Otto_Ing]

That jump on the kicker looked epic. 

[tooseevee]

Nice 2CV!!!  Outstanding find.

You made that look damn easy. What was the plug number you used?

              Easy  It took me 3 1/2 years of dumb and stupid to finally order the Champions

               But anyway.... These I have now are RN2C. I've done some little research on Heat Ranges, but need to do more. Here's how I think right now they relate to NGKs, but don't take this as gospel:

                           NGK                   CHAMPION   

     HOT                B9ES                      RN2C
      to                  B8ES                      RN3C
      COLD             B7ES                      RN4C 

            I'll order some 3s just to see if there's any difference at all in how they build up color.

[tooseevee]

That jump on the kicker looked epic. 

           Gee thanks, kind sir  BUT there were so many hundreds of unnecessary, frustrating, pain and anger producing, kicks before THAT one since May 2014 

[tooseevee]

CONGRATS brother ! 

 Sometimes I could swear these motors are somehow kin to shovel heads and pan heads.

           Yes, they are kin in many ways. I've always equated the AVL, between the Ironhead and the UCE to the Shovelhead, between the Panhead and the EVO (Blockhead).

            Neither of my shovels, the 74 or the 80 inch, would run with Accel plugs, but I could kick start them both in the middle of the winter in three kicks with Champions. You just need to be a little careful with them in and out. The threads are like little grinding machines.

            PS: Enfields are harder to kick start than harleys. If you see guys kicking themselves to death on a harley, they need to have the engine set up right. Everything has to be optimum and right on. It's not the engine's fault, it's the rider's. This doesn't apply to Sportsters or Ironheads. They are a pure son of a bitch to kick start. Everything has to be perfectimento!

[tooseevee]

That jump on the kicker looked epic. 

            Otto, do you have any ideas on the why of this plug thing?

             What do you think of the NGK's spark just plain being blown out by cold fuel, 9.8:1 and the reshaping of the combustion chamber and the Champion just handling that better (for whatever reason) ?

              But that doesn't explain why 2 hours later, after first starting it electrically, that it would kick start easily. But then NOT the very next day. Or would enough heat last for say 6 hours, but just not enough for overnight?

[Otto_Ing]

            Otto, do you have any ideas on the why of this plug thing?

             What do you think of the NGK's spark just plain being blown out by cold fuel, 9.8:1 and the reshaping of the combustion chamber and the Champion just handling that better (for whatever reason) ?

              But that doesn't explain why 2 hours later, after first starting it electrically, that it would kick start easily. But then NOT the very next day. Or would enough heat last for say 6 hours, but just not enough for overnight?

That's a phenomenon. Personally I think the heat range of that plug can be excluded as a cause of the bad cold starts. Normally I would expect resistors in the plug or cap worsen the starting. If not that than the gap. Not much more I can tell.

[Arizoni]

If the NGK spark plug you had been using was the B9ES you mentioned above, you have changed the spark plug from a non-resistor type to a resistor type plug.

Your new Champion RN2C is a resistor spark plug.

It took a bit of digging but I found the number means this:

R = Resistor
N = M14-1.25mm thread, 3/4" long
2 = Heat range (as you posted above)
C = "Copper core" electrode

If you had been using a NGK BR9ES, both the NGK and the new Champion should be almost identical (except for some differences in the actual heat range).

NGK places a R into the number after the first letter for their resistor style spark plugs so, a BRxxx is a resistor plug.  A Bxxx is a non-resistor plug.

Changing from a non-resistor plug to a resistor plug might have made the difference.

The coil on your motorcycle is set up for a resistor style plug and its extra resistance causes the voltage to be higher before the spark jumps the gap.

[Adrian II]

Congratulations, that must be such a relief.

My AVL hybrid engine seems to like its Champion N3C (non-resistor as I'm using a BT-H magneto), but I also have a couple of Nippon Denso plugs to play with.

There are reports of fake NGK plugs on the market. We hope yours was genuine, but if not that might have added to the problem.

A.

[tooseevee]

If the NGK spark plug you had been using was the B9ES you mentioned above, you have changed the spark plug from a non-resistor type to a resistor type plug.

Your new Champion RN2C is a resistor spark plug.

It took a bit of digging but I found the number means this:

R = Resistor
N = M14-1.25mm thread, 3/4" long
2 = Heat range (as you posted above)
C = "Copper core" electrode

If you had been using a NGK BR9ES, both the NGK and the new Champion should be almost identical (except for some differences in the actual heat range).

NGK places a R into the number after the first letter for their resistor style spark plugs so, a BRxxx is a resistor plug.  A Bxxx is a non-resistor plug.

Changing from a non-resistor plug to a resistor plug might have made the difference.

The coil on your motorcycle is set up for a resistor style plug and its extra resistance causes the voltage to be higher before the spark jumps the gap.

              I was not using B9ESs. I was using (incorrectly because that was the word then) BR9ES.

             Don't you remember that we had a long running thread about this a while back? How we should not be using both a resistor cap and a resistor plug?

              Back in the day when I got this bike the plug that was generally, across the board, recommended here, was the the BR9ES (mistakenly. Maybe a carry-over from the Ironhead?) We found out later (I forget who it was who pointed it out) that we should not be running both a resistor cap and a resistor plug as I was.

               SO instead of switching (BR9ES) plugs (which I had a lot of) I removed the stock coil and cap from the bike completely a year ago (which had already been in the plan) and replaced them with the Pertronix coil and non-resistor cap (it shows in the video).

                This is why I was still using the BR9ESs and why I bought the resistor type Champion (RN2C).  Yes, I dug up all the R, N, 2, C designator stuff before i ordered them.

                And I do know that heat range doesn't usually effect starting. I'm ordering some RN3Cs just to try (later on) and see if there is any difference in the way they color up compared to the 2s.

                PS: Why do I even need a resistor plug OR a resistor cap? Is it just for my neighbor's radio?

[tooseevee]

That's a phenomenon. Personally I think the heat range of that plug can be excluded as a cause of the bad cold starts. Normally I would expect resistors in the plug or cap worsen the starting. If not that than the gap. Not much more I can tell.

            Yes, I agree with you. Heat range has little to do with starting. Heat range is how the plug handles heat, how fast or slow it gets rid of heat, etc., ... theory theory theory I just want the damn things to blow up the gasoline 

             I never ever thought heat range had anything to do with my problem. I just want to try an RN2C later on after a while to see if it colors up any differently from the RN2C. 

              Psssstttt don't tell anybody I didn't even gap the Champion before I threw it in the engine

[finbullet]

My theory here is, that this has everything to do with the plug gap, if you have always gapped those ngk's and now you put in those champion's with wider sparkplug gaps you get more powerful spark. It may or may not even effect the ignition timing a couple of milliseconds when the coil has to produce a higher voltage for the spark. With that pertronix coil you really don't have to gap those plugs for smaller gap, there is plenty of voltage for the spark.

When I have used different brand spark plugs there hasn't been any difference with a new plug but when those plugs go older some brand may last longer than the other brand.

[Mick Bailey]

Under some conditions the heat range of a plug can affect an engine's starting behaviour. If the insulator nose is not getting hot enough to burn off deposits, a layer of carbon (or partially burnt deposits) can form a conductive path between the central electrode and the plug body. It can be conductive enough to make cold starting very difficult, but when the engine is running it only marginally affects the spark intensity. I recently had exactly this problem with my own bike and it wasn't until I removed the plug after a run and set it up on my benchtop test rig that I observed the problem first-hand.

References to the presence of a plug resistor causing the voltage to be higher before jumping the gap isn't the case; unless current flows through a resistor there's no voltage drop across it. Basic Ohm's Law. The terminal voltage is the same whether the resistor is there or not. Prior to the gap breaking down there's no current flow, therefore no voltage drop. The presence of the resistor isn't a hurdle to overcome. If you have (say) a 20Kv supply and insert a resistor in series - even a high value - the voltage will still measure 20Kv if the meter is high enough impedance not to load the circuit.

[tooseevee]

     To finbullet and Mick Bailey:

            Excellent comments, both of you. Thank you.

             I'd just like to say first off that (A) none of the NGKs (many) that I used from May 2014 to June 2017 was in the engine long enough to get "old" to any degree at all. None of them ever "looked right" when pulled no matter how well I figured the carb was dialed in and I would throw another new one in and pray; (B) I experimented with gaps from .020" (Pete Snidal) up to .028" over those years (with the NGKs and the OEM coil) - no apparent difference. I never, ever came close to a cold, first thing in the morning, kick start; (C) when I installed the Pertronix last season I stuck with .028" and still got no cold kick starts with the Pertronix.

           I'm going to pull the Champion today both to just look at it (after 18 days) and to check the gap. I'll bet it's around 0.028" give or take.

            Now - a bottom line once and for all question:

             With the Pertronix and a non-resistor HT wire straight from  coil to plug, does it make any damn difference whatsoever To The Engine (I don't care about radios) whether I use a resistor or non-resistor plug?

               I don't think radios (car or otherwise) react like the old days to non-resistor ignition systems. Do they? And even so, do I care? No, I do not 

             

[Otto_Ing]

     To finbullet and Mick Bailey:

            Excellent comments, both of you. Thank you.

             I'd just like to say first off that (A) none of the NGKs (many) that I used from May 2014 to June 2017 was in the engine long enough to get "old" to any degree at all. None of them ever "looked right" when pulled no matter how well I figured the carb was dialed in and I would throw another new one in and pray; (B) I experimented with gaps from .020" (Pete Snidal) up to .028" over those years (with the NGKs and the OEM coil) - no apparent difference. I never, ever came close to a cold, first thing in the morning, kick start; (C) when I installed the Pertronix last season I stuck with .028" and still got no cold kick starts with the Pertronix.

           I'm going to pull the Champion today both to just look at it (after 18 days) and to check the gap. I'll bet it's around 0.028" give or take.

            Now - a bottom line once and for all question:

             With the Pertronix and a non-resistor HT wire straight from  coil to plug, does it make any damn difference whatsoever To The Engine (I don't care about radios) whether I use a resistor or non-resistor plug?

               I don't think radios (car or otherwise) react like the old days to non-resistor ignition systems. Do they? And even so, do I care? No, I do not 

             

I've found some good reading about it... someone who actually looked closer at what exactly happens.

http://www.ultralightnews.ca/articles/resistorcapsandplugs.htm

[Mick Bailey]

The noise that affects radio and TV is the same noise that can disrupt an electronic ignition system. It can cause misfiring, latching-up (where the processor logic sticks in a fixed state) or multiple triggers. The spark discharge is very abrupt and the edges of the waveform generate harmonics into the radio frequencies. The purpose of the resistor is twofold; it alters the time-factor of the discharge in slowing it down, resulting in a less-abrupt discharge over a longer duration (though with lower instantaneous energy). Also, the resistor is wire-wound and has an inductance and therefore impedance. This frequency-dependent aspect means that higher frequencies see a greater effective resistance than lower ones and this reduces the radio-frequency components.

IMHO, you should use either a resistor cap or a resistor plug with a solid-core wire. In fact, I don't like resistive HT leads at all due to the absence of any significant inductive component. 

[Otto_Ing]

The noise that affects radio and TV is the same noise that can disrupt an electronic ignition system. It can cause misfiring, latching-up (where the processor logic sticks in a fixed state) or multiple triggers. The spark discharge is very abrupt and the edges of the waveform generate harmonics into the radio frequencies. The purpose of the resistor is twofold; it alters the time-factor of the discharge in slowing it down, resulting in a less-abrupt discharge over a longer duration (though with lower instantaneous energy). Also, the resistor is wire-wound and has an inductance and therefore impedance. This frequency-dependent aspect means that higher frequencies see a greater effective resistance than lower ones and this reduces the radio-frequency components.

IMHO, you should use either a resistor cap or a resistor plug with a solid-core wire. In fact, I don't like resistive HT leads at all due to the absence of any significant inductive component.

That makes sense...but aren't the cap's and plugs using a ceramic resistor, where would the inductive component come from?

[elysianforest]

That makes sense...but aren't the cap's and plugs using a ceramic resistor, where would the inductive component come from?

I'm no spark plug expert, but if Mick's right about the resistor being wire wound you have your answer there. Some diagrams also show a spring involved which could also introduce inductance.

[heloego]

Well, awright! 

Seriously glad that worked out! Gotta give it a shot, see if it works on my '06. Curious whether the displacement and OEM ignition/condenser will have any effect on it.

[Mick Bailey]

Older designs used carbon composition resistors. These have a high pulse-handling capability but no significant inductance. Modern interference suppression resistors are specifically designed for automotive systems due to the increased need to reduce EMI in electronic-intensive vehicles. They're not bare windings and have a vitrified or other heat-resistant and insulating coating so look like a ceramic bar with end caps.

When present, the spring does introduce inductance. This is sometimes wound with stainless resistance wire and in conjunction with a composite (non-wirewound) resistor this provides an additional level of suppression.

At one time the only things needing protecting were the car's radio and domestic TVs and radios. Now you have extensive electronics on vehicles that need protection, plus phones, sat-nav and other stuff used in and around a vehicle.

[Ice]

 There is some other subtle factor here that I can't pin down.

 All of the HD's I've owned preferred Champion and Autolight mildly tolerated Bosh and NGK a bit less and absolutely disliked Nippon Denso plugs.
 My Iron Barrels like Champion then NGK.  My Asian bikes preferred Asian plugs. I have no theory as to why.

Some of my friends have nearly the same anecdotal experiences on this topic.

[Mick Bailey]

On my test rig I've observed the spark characteristics of quite a few plugs recently. For a given electrode configuration and gap (what may be called a 'standard' plug), there can be a difference in how the spark jumps the gap. This may account for how plugs from different manufacturers and of the same nominal rating and type behave in different engines.

My broad observation is;

1. Strong blue/white spark that jumps the gap in the same location.
2. Strong blue/white spark that may stay in the same location at low RPM, but at higher speeds moves around. This movement depending on whether the electrodes are parallel or angled.
3. Strong blue/white spark that is occasionally interspersed by a number of simultaneous weaker sparks, purple in colour, that occur in different locations.
4. Multi-stranded sparks that tend towards a purple colour that occur simultaneously at a number of locations across the electrode faces. No single spark.

I noticed on the 'scope that the plugs exhibiting the characteristics described in 3&4 generated more interference.

[tooseevee]

      This has ended up being an incredibly interesting thread - thank you to everybody who has commented. I chased this problem SO long and it was SO easy to solve.

        I can't explain for the life of me why I didn't do it sooner - like in 2014. We grow too soon old and too late smart 

       

[hpwaco]

Too soon old, too late smart!   My long departed 98 year old grandfathers comment on life.

[tooseevee]

     I've had many monkey wrenches thrown into my gears* this week, but I finally got around to pulling that Champion plug after 20 cold starts and warmups in the garage since June 23 and two (2) very short runs down the road (5 or 6 miles).

      The pictures aren't really great, but I'll just say this Champion looks Grrrrate! compared to the many NGKs I've pulled and replaced. The difference is amazing. I can't show valid pictures of the shitty looking NGKs that I've kept because they've all been cleaned to various degrees and aren't accurate illustrations of how shitty they ALL were when pulled out of the engine. To look at the NGKs, you would think that my carb was WAY out of dial-in which it is not.

         Also, this Champion has been running with exactly the same carb jets and settings (TM 32) as with the NGKs. No parameters of any kind are different. Only the plug change.

         This plug was 0.028" out of the box and so were two unused ones I checked. I'm leaving them there unless I get comments that make me believe I should change the gap.

           What looks like a "glob" of crap at the bend of the ground electrode is an illusion of the photo. It's just a very thin black coloration that almost looks like anodizing rather than a deposit. The actual plug coloring looks VERY good to me.

         * I wonder how many remember what a monkey wrench is without Googling it     

[hpwaco]

It appears that the NGK hot to cold numbers are reversed on tooseevees chart.

[Arizoni]

It appears that the NGK hot to cold numbers are reversed on tooseevees chart.

I believe your right.

With NGK plugs the lower the number, the hotter the plug.
The higher the number, the cooler the plug.

Champion is just the opposite.
The lower the number, the colder the plug.
The higher the number, the hotter the plug.

Borrowing 2CV's chart, he shows:

         NGK                   CHAMPION   

     HOT                B9ES                      RN2C
      to                  B8ES                      RN3C                   RN3C
      COLD             B7ES                      RN4C

It should be

         NGK                   CHAMPION   

     HOT                B7ES                      RN4C
      to                  B8ES                      RN3C
      COLD             B9ES                      RN2C

[tooseevee]

I believe your right.

With NGK plugs the lower the number, the hotter the plug.
The higher the number, the cooler the plug.

Champion is just the opposite.
The lower the number, the colder the plug.
The higher the number, the hotter the plug.

Borrowing 2CV's chart, he shows:

         NGK                   CHAMPION   

     HOT                B9ES                      RN2C
      to                  B8ES                      RN3C                   RN3C
      COLD             B7ES                      RN4C

It should be

         NGK                   CHAMPION   

     HOT                B7ES                      RN4C
      to                  B8ES                      RN3C
      COLD             B9ES                      RN2C

           Yes. I had my plug order correct, but I got my labeling wrong, my chart should have been labeled

           COLD

              to

             HOT

           Mea culpa       

[Arizoni]

That's OK.  Stuff happens. 

The important thing, especially for people new to the world of engines and spark plugs, is different companies have different ways of saying the same thing.

It's always a good idea to check how the company that made "your" spark plug numbers things so you'll know what direction to go if they need changing.

Also, use the data supplied by the company rather than using posts on the internet.
Anyone can frinkle up the numbers in their posts.  Usually, the company that made the product say it like it is. 

[tooseevee]

That's OK.  Stuff happens. 

The important thing, especially for people new to the world of engines and spark plugs, is different companies have different ways of saying the same thing.

It's always a good idea to check how the company that made "your" spark plug numbers things so you'll know what direction to go if they need changing.

Also, use the data supplied by the company rather than using posts on the internet.
Anyone can frinkle up the numbers in their posts.  Usually, the company that made the product say it like it is. 

               Yup. You've gotta do your homework on stuff like this and like you say don't listen to "some guy down the street said" or "urban myth" stuff or "bloggers who maybe just got out of high school and stole their first motorcycle".

            I read maybe 8 "heat range cross reference" sites before I decided on the one I believed. Some are hard to read; some are easier.

             And THEN what did I do    I labeled my own damn chart wrong and sent it out to the whole damn forum, What an ijjitt

[Mick Bailey]

Just to satisfy my curiosity I installed a Champion N2C today (I have a resistor cap). My bike will sometimes start first kick and it did this time. What was remarkable was the idling - it usually needs nursing from cold and dies rapidly if the throttle isn't held open slightly until it has warmed up. This time it ran faultlessly straight away with the throttle closed - tick-tock, tick-tock. Not a hint of stumbling or hesitation. It's never done this. Heavy rain put an end to going for a run, but it will be interesting to see how the bike runs and what the plug looks like after a few miles.

[tooseevee]

Just to satisfy my curiosity I installed a Champion N2C today (I have a resistor cap). My bike will sometimes start first kick and it did this time. What was remarkable was the idling - it usually needs nursing from cold and dies rapidly if the throttle isn't held open slightly until it has warmed up. This time it ran faultlessly straight away with the throttle closed - tick-tock, tick-tock. Not a hint of stumbling or hesitation. It's never done this. Heavy rain put an end to going for a run, but it will be interesting to see how the bike runs and what the plug looks like after a few miles.

            Yes. I also found exactly the same thing (along with the cold kickstarts). There was no more carefully babying the throttle and praying it would last for three or four more revolutions and not die from the very first start after throwing the Champion in. This would happen, along with the brain-bending sprag Klank, when I would end up using the electric start. No more. I just breathe on the button now and it just starts running at an idle.

             After it's running a bit and warm I tweak the idle speed down just a bit and just go. No drama at all. After a few more miles it will want the idle tweaked down again just a hair.

             Overall now, with this plug change, the bike could not be better if it was owned by Gandalf.   

[GLJ]

tooseevee
Congrats
 Not just for finding the solution to your problem but also for wanting to kick start your bike. I've read many of your posts and you are a great read. I appreciate your insight and wisdom. 
   

[tooseevee]

tooseevee
Congrats
 Not just for finding the solution to your problem but also for wanting to kick start your bike. I've read many of your posts and you are a great read. I appreciate your insight and wisdom. 
 

           Thanks.

            I'm an old (79) dinosaur when it comes to kick starting and I look at it differently than a lot of newer riders, I guess. It's not a "trick" to me or something amazing to me to impress the folks at Starbuck's. If I can't kick start it, I don't want it and I've torn my hair out chasing it since all the mods in 2014 trying to solve it on the Enfield (my first bike ever with ES).

             Don't ask me why, but the Champion plug solved it on this particular engine. Now I just barely touch the button or kick it once or twice and it just starts idling and ticking over like a watch. No more drama, no more sprag klanks, no more babying the throttle. No flat spots anywhere, no worries about dying at stop signs. The only thing I've never checked out is top speed, but I don't care. 65 is fine and I'm happy at 55 plus the speedometer lies anyway so why bother? I just ride at a speed that feels good for where I am. I don't much care about the numbers.   

[tooseevee]

           Thanks.

            I'm an old (79) dinosaur when it comes to kick starting and I look at it differently than a lot of newer riders, I guess. It's not a "trick" to me or something amazing to me to impress the folks at Starbuck's. If I can't kick start it, I don't want it and I've torn my hair out chasing it since all the mods in 2014 trying to solve it on the Enfield (my first bike ever with ES).

             Don't ask me why, but the Champion plug solved it on this particular engine. Now I just barely touch the button or kick it once or twice and it just starts idling and ticking over like a watch. No more drama, no more sprag klanks, no more babying the throttle. No flat spots anywhere, no worries about dying at stop signs. The only thing I've never checked out is top speed, but I don't care. 65 is fine and I'm happy at 55 plus the speedometer lies anyway so why bother? I just ride at a speed that feels good for where I am. I don't much care about the numbers.   

            I just hit the wrong thing on this friggin' new laptop  and deleted a half hour of typing so here we go again.

            I decided to disinter this old corpse of a thread today for guys who still play with AVLs.

            I've still been getting consistent, reliable cold kick starts after switching to the Champion plug. Sometimes it's 2, sometimes it's 6 (like today at 2PM after sitting for 18 hours). It rained all day yesterday, poured again through the night and the morning and it's been 52/54F most of that time. I think the number of kicks to start it from cold is directly related to temp and humma ditty.

            I get real hurtin' after 6 kicks so I'm still happy with it, but not Super Happy. I'm happy because it would NEVER kick start cold before the plug switch. Since 2014.

            BTW I learned long ago never to touch the throttle AT ALL (kick OR electric) when starting it cold (or hot for that matter). If I dare increase throttle even a microscopic amount for the first 20 seconds it will die!  It must be allowed to start with NO throttle and then chug along at about 7 or 800 RPM (I'm guessing) for 20 or 30 seconds as it slowly increases to a normal idle. 

          None of this is true after the engine's warmed up, of course. It just starts immediately if you breathe the word Start at the button or kick it over once. And I haven't heard a sprag noise since switching plugs.

           It takes two or three 3-second cranks to start it cold electrically.

           

[heloego]

Mine's slightly different.

Cold: Key "off",
        Choke "on",
        One or two kicks to prime,
        Key "on",
        Slightly (and I mean SLIGHTLY!) crack the throttle,
        Kick or tickle the Start.
        Choke "off" almost immediately,
        Off I go! 

Changing the plug like you did did make a difference.
Maybe a Pertronix coil will make it better, but for now I'm good.
         
         

[tooseevee]

Mine's slightly different.

Cold: Key "off",
        Choke "on",
        One or two kicks to prime,
        Key "on",
        Slightly (and I mean SLIGHTLY!) crack the throttle,
        Kick or tickle the Start.
        Choke "off" almost immediately,
        Off I go! 

Changing the plug like you did did make a difference.
Maybe a Pertronix coil will make it better, but for now I'm good.
                 

           Sounds like you've got it nailed 

           Just a few comments:

                 I haven't experimented with the enrichener (choke) at all yet. I've just never seemed to need it as most of my tweaking is done in "warm" weather. It's just above 50 here now and soon I'll pull the bat tree and put it in the water heater room for the winter.

                I've experimented with primer kicks and pretty much find it doesn't matter. If it's going to start in three kicks on a particular day I've found it doesn't matter if two are with the key off so I just go ahead and start right out with the key on. I think every engine is just different in many ways; like wives 

                 The plug is beautiful and tells me I'm pretty damn right on mixturewise. 27.5 Pilot, 1 1/2 turns out, stock needle, eclip in the middle on one Mikuni shim. The Main is still stock as I have never yet had it to top speed WOT to see if it's right or not. I can get to 65 really really easy, no sweat, no fuss so what do I care? 

                   The NGKs were always black no matter WHAT I tried during the hundreds of tweaks I was doing since I got the head back from Ace and installed it ready for the spring of 2014. It's been a long frustrating slog since then, but some of you will remember that I said back then that I was going to win over this black bitch and I DID. I'm just incredibly happy with this bike now and want to thank EVERYBODY who put up with me since I started sometime in the winter of 2010 with a brand new leftover 2008 that had been sitting empty, batteryless and dry in the back room of an out-of-business dealer. 
 

[heloego]

You are a persistent S.O.B, aintcha, and good on ya!

   I've been paying attention to my 500cc since I got the carb set up (pilot jet #30 out 3/4, Needle Jet 159P6/Needle 6DH2 on the 3rd slot, 170 Main) and getting up to 65mph quickly is an understatement! I've never required more than 1/4 throttle during the majority of my riding. Just wish I had the time to ride it more!
   The stock decomp is definitely weird due to the need for valve movement before it will even work, and with the major increase in compression since I put new rings in it I do need to apply some pressure to it during initial kick to get the crank into a good position for the start kick. Otherwise I have to STAND on the kicker to get it past TDC.
   I currently make a point of servicing the tank in the only place here that has real fuel and it's 90 octane. With the increased compression from the new rings I'm tempted to throw some 100LL into the tank just to see what it will do.
 
   Anyone know if that is too high for the AVL?   
   A couple of locals have said to try it, but since they don't ride or know the engine I really would like a definitive opinion.

[tooseevee]

If the NGK spark plug you had been using was the B9ES you mentioned above, you have changed the spark plug from a non-resistor type to a resistor type plug.

Your new Champion RN2C is a resistor spark plug.

It took a bit of digging but I found the number means this:

R = Resistor
N = M14-1.25mm thread, 3/4" long
2 = Heat range (as you posted above)
C = "Copper core" electrode

If you had been using a NGK BR9ES, both the NGK and the new Champion should be almost identical (except for some differences in the actual heat range).

NGK places a R into the number after the first letter for their resistor style spark plugs so, a BRxxx is a resistor plug.  A Bxxx is a non-resistor plug.

Changing from a non-resistor plug to a resistor plug might have made the difference.

The coil on your motorcycle is set up for a resistor style plug and its extra resistance causes the voltage to be higher before the spark jumps the gap.

           I missed this whole post before. Sorry.

           Yes, I knew all that stuff before the Champion experiment. The reason I got the "R" Champion plug is that I no longer have the OEM resistor cap that got binned when I installed the Pertronix and a plain non-resistor HT wire straight to the plug.

            You might remember years ago (2010,'11,'12) that BR NGK plugs were recommended for the AVL. I later learned along with others that this was wrong. I remember it well; otherwise I never would have ordered BR NGK plugs that I did back in 2010 or 2011 when I first started learning about this bike.           

             I forget now who first pointed out that this was incorrect since the AVL had an OEM resistor cap and that we should be using one or the other, but not both. I remember it caused quite a deep discussion among guys who know a lot more plug/coil/electronics theory than I do.  I think BW may have pointed it out first.

            Anyway. Nuff sed. You've helped me a lot over the years. Thanks..

[DocW]

Apologies if I'm taking this thread in an unwanted direction, but I've got a question about that nasty sprag klanck.  To make a long story short, I just replaced drive gear and alternator (and the inner chaincase) on my 2005 iron barrel 500.  The electric start engages fine, but I'm getting a pretty heavy klanck, enough to make me re-open the chaincase to make sure that everything was in it's proper place.  This knock was not there before.

Any suggestions on what I might try to eliminate this klanck?

[DocW]

One other thing I should mention.  When I replaced the inner chaincase, the "new" chaincase had the starter gears (sprag and dummy) already installed.  I did not re-use the old starter gears.  Wondering if I need to open that up and put original starter gears back in.  Or might this starter clank just "wear in"?

[tooseevee]

You are a persistent S.O.B, aintcha, and good on ya!

   I currently make a point of servicing the tank in the only place here that has real fuel and it's 90 octane. With the increased compression from the new rings I'm tempted to throw some 100LL into the tank just to see what it will do.
 
   Anyone know if that is too high for the AVL?   
 

           I've just always used 93 or 94 octane (American) in bikes. I used it when the Enfield was 8.5:1 and I use it now that it's 9.8:1.

            Saving money was never an issue for me as far as bike gas goes; I was never going to save enough on bike gas to buy that SS 396.  I just use ol' Willfred Brimley as an excuse: "It's the Right thing to do"!

            (Just kidding. I understand all the ins and outs of octane and the corn market and alcohol, etc., etc, etc.. And whatever else they can come up with. It's pretty plain actually: the gas is shit now and it'll only get worse, but at least I don't live in California).

[tooseevee]

       Ignore this. Just a test to see what time it is (Does anybody really know what time it is?)

       Yup. That's what I thought; it shows 10:56 and it's 9:56 here.

        And now after I've left and then logged back i again it shows my correct time. There is no explaining it. It's just how these things work. Anyway. I think the time that shows on the post now is now my actual time.

         Let's enter this and see.......

   

[tooseevee]

Test.......

Yup. That fixed it. All you have to do is go into Look and Layout and fix the Offset from GMT. In my case (RI) it's 1 hour.

[tooseevee]

Test

Yes. Now it's correct.