[tooseevee]

     The tale can now be told after my 17th cold kick start in a row this morning. They have been varying (since the 23rd of June) from up to 4 kicks, mostly 2-kicks and a few one-kicks. This morning was a one-kick I suppose because it had been out in the sun for a while planning how to do the video (my daughter's camera).

      Here's a short rundown for those who haven't followed this story since 2010:

       In the winter of 2013 I sent my head off to Ace for his (and Mondello's) wizardry. I spent the whole 2014 spring and summer reassembling, dialing in and tweaking. All Federal stuff had already been removed, wide open exhaust, Ace can and TM 32 were added.

         After dialed in (many, many carb adjustments and tweaking) it ran marvelously out on the road. I was amazed with it and could not have been happier.

           It was an easy kick starter, but only AFTER it had been started for the first time using the evil, hated, electric starter. I chased that problem from the very beginning (I HATE a bike I can't kick start) trying a hundred different tweaks and I NEVER solved it until the 23rd of June. I had NEVER gotten a cold kick start before that no matter WHAT I tried.

            I had had it in the back of my head all along this time that it "might have something to do" with the NGK plugs in this particular engine, but I never had the sense to overcome the dogma. I never liked the looks of the plugs when I pulled them and no matter how I tweaked the Mikuni it maddeningly made no difference at all. I even discussed it with Ace years ago. I think I went through at least a dozen NGKs. I finally got pissed off for the final time around the 20th of June after replacing a plug again and not getting even an electric start out of it. I pulled the NGK, got my 4-pound sledge out and smashed it in the driveway, went immediately to eBay and ordered a 4-pack of Champion plugs Free Shipping

          They arrived on the 23rd of June. I put one in and got an immediate cold, first-start-of-the-day, 3-kick kick start I could not believe it myself and could only explain it with airy theories about 9.8:1 compression, change in chamber shape and the spark being blown out, etc., etc.. Cold fuel, gremlins, pay back for the evil I've done 

           Let me also say that NOTHING was changed except the plug. ALL my mods had been done before this season even started. I would not shit you guys because if I got caught I would never live it down. It's the god'shonest truth. A simple change of plugs solved this whole painful, frustrating problem.

          I have no excuse for not trying this before, but I always thought it HAD to be the carb. I also let myself be a victim of NGK dogma.

           I welcome comments if anybody thinks they've got a theory. But please don't tell me stuff I should have done that I probably already did and tried a dozen times since May of 2014.

           A simple change of plug brand has solved what I've been chasing since then. Here's the video (I hope it works). The engine sounds different than it does live, but I guess everything does.

https://linksharing.samsungcloud.com/contents/view?contentsToken=1499610199238CaZHKZ9&currentIndex=1
   

[tooseevee]

       It was the plug, dummy. The plug.

        (Yes, I DO feel like an idiot).

[DanB]

Nice 2CV!!!  Outstanding find.

You made that look damn easy. What was the plug number you used?

[Ice]

CONGRATS brother ! 

 Sometimes I could swear these motors are somehow kin to shovel heads and pan heads.

[Otto_Ing]

That jump on the kicker looked epic. 

[tooseevee]

Nice 2CV!!!  Outstanding find.

You made that look damn easy. What was the plug number you used?

              Easy  It took me 3 1/2 years of dumb and stupid to finally order the Champions

               But anyway.... These I have now are RN2C. I've done some little research on Heat Ranges, but need to do more. Here's how I think right now they relate to NGKs, but don't take this as gospel:

                           NGK                   CHAMPION   

     HOT                B9ES                      RN2C
      to                  B8ES                      RN3C
      COLD             B7ES                      RN4C 

            I'll order some 3s just to see if there's any difference at all in how they build up color.

[tooseevee]

That jump on the kicker looked epic. 

           Gee thanks, kind sir  BUT there were so many hundreds of unnecessary, frustrating, pain and anger producing, kicks before THAT one since May 2014 

[tooseevee]

CONGRATS brother ! 

 Sometimes I could swear these motors are somehow kin to shovel heads and pan heads.

           Yes, they are kin in many ways. I've always equated the AVL, between the Ironhead and the UCE to the Shovelhead, between the Panhead and the EVO (Blockhead).

            Neither of my shovels, the 74 or the 80 inch, would run with Accel plugs, but I could kick start them both in the middle of the winter in three kicks with Champions. You just need to be a little careful with them in and out. The threads are like little grinding machines.

            PS: Enfields are harder to kick start than harleys. If you see guys kicking themselves to death on a harley, they need to have the engine set up right. Everything has to be optimum and right on. It's not the engine's fault, it's the rider's. This doesn't apply to Sportsters or Ironheads. They are a pure son of a bitch to kick start. Everything has to be perfectimento!

[tooseevee]

That jump on the kicker looked epic. 

            Otto, do you have any ideas on the why of this plug thing?

             What do you think of the NGK's spark just plain being blown out by cold fuel, 9.8:1 and the reshaping of the combustion chamber and the Champion just handling that better (for whatever reason) ?

              But that doesn't explain why 2 hours later, after first starting it electrically, that it would kick start easily. But then NOT the very next day. Or would enough heat last for say 6 hours, but just not enough for overnight?

[Otto_Ing]

            Otto, do you have any ideas on the why of this plug thing?

             What do you think of the NGK's spark just plain being blown out by cold fuel, 9.8:1 and the reshaping of the combustion chamber and the Champion just handling that better (for whatever reason) ?

              But that doesn't explain why 2 hours later, after first starting it electrically, that it would kick start easily. But then NOT the very next day. Or would enough heat last for say 6 hours, but just not enough for overnight?

That's a phenomenon. Personally I think the heat range of that plug can be excluded as a cause of the bad cold starts. Normally I would expect resistors in the plug or cap worsen the starting. If not that than the gap. Not much more I can tell.

[Arizoni]

If the NGK spark plug you had been using was the B9ES you mentioned above, you have changed the spark plug from a non-resistor type to a resistor type plug.

Your new Champion RN2C is a resistor spark plug.

It took a bit of digging but I found the number means this:

R = Resistor
N = M14-1.25mm thread, 3/4" long
2 = Heat range (as you posted above)
C = "Copper core" electrode

If you had been using a NGK BR9ES, both the NGK and the new Champion should be almost identical (except for some differences in the actual heat range).

NGK places a R into the number after the first letter for their resistor style spark plugs so, a BRxxx is a resistor plug.  A Bxxx is a non-resistor plug.

Changing from a non-resistor plug to a resistor plug might have made the difference.

The coil on your motorcycle is set up for a resistor style plug and its extra resistance causes the voltage to be higher before the spark jumps the gap.

[Adrian II]

Congratulations, that must be such a relief.

My AVL hybrid engine seems to like its Champion N3C (non-resistor as I'm using a BT-H magneto), but I also have a couple of Nippon Denso plugs to play with.

There are reports of fake NGK plugs on the market. We hope yours was genuine, but if not that might have added to the problem.

A.

[tooseevee]

If the NGK spark plug you had been using was the B9ES you mentioned above, you have changed the spark plug from a non-resistor type to a resistor type plug.

Your new Champion RN2C is a resistor spark plug.

It took a bit of digging but I found the number means this:

R = Resistor
N = M14-1.25mm thread, 3/4" long
2 = Heat range (as you posted above)
C = "Copper core" electrode

If you had been using a NGK BR9ES, both the NGK and the new Champion should be almost identical (except for some differences in the actual heat range).

NGK places a R into the number after the first letter for their resistor style spark plugs so, a BRxxx is a resistor plug.  A Bxxx is a non-resistor plug.

Changing from a non-resistor plug to a resistor plug might have made the difference.

The coil on your motorcycle is set up for a resistor style plug and its extra resistance causes the voltage to be higher before the spark jumps the gap.

              I was not using B9ESs. I was using (incorrectly because that was the word then) BR9ES.

             Don't you remember that we had a long running thread about this a while back? How we should not be using both a resistor cap and a resistor plug?

              Back in the day when I got this bike the plug that was generally, across the board, recommended here, was the the BR9ES (mistakenly. Maybe a carry-over from the Ironhead?) We found out later (I forget who it was who pointed it out) that we should not be running both a resistor cap and a resistor plug as I was.

               SO instead of switching (BR9ES) plugs (which I had a lot of) I removed the stock coil and cap from the bike completely a year ago (which had already been in the plan) and replaced them with the Pertronix coil and non-resistor cap (it shows in the video).

                This is why I was still using the BR9ESs and why I bought the resistor type Champion (RN2C).  Yes, I dug up all the R, N, 2, C designator stuff before i ordered them.

                And I do know that heat range doesn't usually effect starting. I'm ordering some RN3Cs just to try (later on) and see if there is any difference in the way they color up compared to the 2s.

                PS: Why do I even need a resistor plug OR a resistor cap? Is it just for my neighbor's radio?

[tooseevee]

That's a phenomenon. Personally I think the heat range of that plug can be excluded as a cause of the bad cold starts. Normally I would expect resistors in the plug or cap worsen the starting. If not that than the gap. Not much more I can tell.

            Yes, I agree with you. Heat range has little to do with starting. Heat range is how the plug handles heat, how fast or slow it gets rid of heat, etc., ... theory theory theory I just want the damn things to blow up the gasoline 

             I never ever thought heat range had anything to do with my problem. I just want to try an RN2C later on after a while to see if it colors up any differently from the RN2C. 

              Psssstttt don't tell anybody I didn't even gap the Champion before I threw it in the engine

[finbullet]

My theory here is, that this has everything to do with the plug gap, if you have always gapped those ngk's and now you put in those champion's with wider sparkplug gaps you get more powerful spark. It may or may not even effect the ignition timing a couple of milliseconds when the coil has to produce a higher voltage for the spark. With that pertronix coil you really don't have to gap those plugs for smaller gap, there is plenty of voltage for the spark.

When I have used different brand spark plugs there hasn't been any difference with a new plug but when those plugs go older some brand may last longer than the other brand.