[sheldogg]

Hi everyone!

Thanks to all of you for your time and patience while I hunted down the electrical short in my '06 Electra. In the end the problem was the first thing I thought it would be - main fuse blown. Just took me 6 days to hunt that fuse down. Special thanks to Arizoni for posting the key that turned the tumbler there.

I bought this bike despite electric start malfunction (talked the guy down some because of that to be fair). But now I'm sick of kicking every time, and my partner can't manage it at all.

What I did:
__Hot-wired the starter. It functions, the bike started as it would if I'd had a working button.
__Hot-wired to the solenoid/relay. Got a start there as well.
__Traced the wire (blue w/white stripe) from the solenoid to the rat's nest under the seat all the way up to the gas tank. No breaks in the wire, no evident bad connections in the relays. Cleaned connections to no avail.
__Did a visual check of the wire *harness* (under wraps) under the gas tank to the headstock without removing tank headstock or handlebars. No visible breaks. None leading from the switch itself either. Found another relay just before the headstock, but wrong-colored wire leading from it so pfffft.
__There's a spike in amperage and an audible click when the starter button is depressed. I tried to find the source of the click, but I believe that's just the relay that sits atop the solenoid telling me it's got good ground.

That's as far as I dared take it for now. I don't want to go through the pain of removing the gas tank and unwrapping those wires just to find what I suspect anyhow - no breaks in the blue/white I'm tracing, and no suspect relays between it and the headstock.

And I'm not removing my headstock unless I get a great idea. I'd rather pay shop hours than go down that rabbit hole.

So that's why I'm posting another lengthy plea for advice. Who's got the key for this tumbler? Have I overlooked something? Is there a probable reason to take the next step and remove the gas tank and unwrap the wiring there?

As a temporary solution, has anybody run a bypass from their starter switch direct to the solenoid? I'd be down for that if I thought I could make it work. Just disconnect the handlebar switch, run it to the battery, and from there to the solenoid, right? Maybe rig a relay or even a 10a fuse between the battery and the solenoid?

Thanks for reading and happy trails!

[Arizoni]

...

What I did:
__Hot-wired the starter. It functions, the bike started as it would if I'd had a working button.

If you ran a wire from the + battery terminal directly to the starter that proves the motor works.
__Hot-wired to the solenoid/relay. Got a start there as well.

Does this mean you jumped directly from the solenoid input terminal that's on the solenoid directly to the output terminal on the solenoid?  If so, you just bypassed the solenoid and proved the wires are connected.

If on the other hand it means you ran a + wire from the battery to the blue/white wire at the solenoid and you heard a click while the starter motor started running, ignore the latter half of my post.

If you did not run a + power wire from the battery to the terminal where the blue/white wire is connected, now is the time to do so.
With the solenoids black wire connected and your jumper from the battery touching the blue/white wires solenoid terminal you should hear a click and the starter motor should begin to run.

__Traced the wire (blue w/white stripe) from the solenoid to the rat's nest under the seat all the way up to the gas tank. No breaks in the wire, no evident bad connections in the relays. Cleaned connections to no avail.
As you know, this blue/white wire delivers the power from the button to the solenoid.  This is a likely candidate but read on.

__Did a visual check of the wire *harness* (under wraps) under the gas tank to the headstock without removing tank headstock or handlebars. No visible breaks. None leading from the switch itself either. Found another relay just before the headstock, but wrong-colored wire leading from it so pfffft.
__There's a spike in amperage and an audible click when the starter button is depressed. I tried to find the source of the click, but I believe that's just the relay that sits atop the solenoid telling me it's got good ground.

Not only does it show the ground path from the activation circuit in the solenoid is good but that audible CLICK says power is getting from the starter button thru the blue/white wire to the solenoid and activating it.

The fact that this activation doesn't cause the starter motor to run says the solenoid is defective.

This is quite common with RE's of all types  In fact, it is rumored that Kevin bought his Porsche with the revenue from selling these things.

You can either buy a replacement from REFW or remove the starter solenoid and go to your local NAPA or other auto supply store.
They have a lot of solenoids that will do the job and by having your defective solenoid in hand they might even be able to match one up that will bolt right in place.

[tooseevee]

Hi everyone!
__There's a spike in amperage and an audible click when the starter button is depressed. I tried to find the source of the click, but I believe that's just the relay that sits atop the solenoid telling me it's got good ground.

So that's why I'm posting another lengthy plea for advice. Who's got the key for this tumbler? Have I overlooked something? Is there a probable reason to take the next step and remove the gas tank and unwrap the wiring there?

Maybe rig a relay or even a 10a fuse between the battery and the solenoid?

Thanks for reading and happy trails!

            You should put a new starter relay in (it's not a solenoid, it's a relay) and eliminate THAT as a problem. Here's the one I put in my '08 a couple years ago. They were way less then and I ordered two; one is on my shelf for when this one shits the bed:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Universal-Motorcycle-Solenoid-Starter-Relay-Switch-With-Multiple-Connectors-/332069977885?epid=510910001&hash=item4d50e9bf1d:g:XOEAAOSw5cNYW-2Q&vxp=mtr

          You say you have a relay that sits atop the "solenoid"? Is that a Bosch relay (that someone added) between the starter button and the existing starter relay? If so, by all means leave that between your starter button and the new relay you're going to order and install.

           Then make sure your battery is tip-top, always at peak Voltage and always on a tender unless you're riding it.

            I've had every wire apart in the loom under the gas tank (and under the seat and in the headlight). There are 30 wires in that loom under the tank and you can't see any problems (which there are) unless you take the tank off and unwrap the loom. All you can do is check continuity from end to end. There are horrible things inside that loom I guess things got incrementally better after '08 or '09.

[Arizoni]

2CV"
As "solenoid" is another word for "relay" I'll ask the question, did your AVL come with a separate relay between the starter button and the starter solenoid or, is it something you added?

The wiring diagram I have for the AVL doesn't show one.

I'll admit, if sheldogg's motorcycle has one, it's possible it was what he was hearing and it is defective.

As I think I mentioned, it would be a good idea for him to run a jumper from the hot + battery terminal to the solenoid terminal that should have the blue/white wire connected to it.
If the solenoid clicks and the engine starts cranking, this unknown (to me) relay may be the problem.

[sheldogg]

What is this system? That's what I've been calling a 'relay', and when I said I bridged the solenoid what I did was jump start the bike going hot from the battery to the white end. The green, where I thought I may have isolated the problem, looks like a passive connector. I guess the word 'relay' is a poor choice.

But I've messed up. Can't even kick start right the bike right now.

What I did:
__Disassemble the right housing (kill switch, throttle cable, headlamp toggle, electric starter switch) to see if I went hot from the battery to the switch that'd produce a start. It produced the same result (amperage spike, click).
__Disconnect the wires from that passive connector, thinking there I'd find a short. Went straight to the clear end with both wires. Got the same result.

I don't think my removing that green diode is keeping me from starting the bike. I didn't move the top portion of the housing at all, which contains the kill switch, and I don't believe I've blown the switch because I still get that amperage spike when I try to hit electric start button. I carefully reassembled the housing, and don't see why moving the throttle cable about would keep me from kick starting the bike anyhow.

I did check the spark plug today, and thought I reattached the wire properly. What's my problem? Loose throttle cable? Spark? Did messing about with the wiring to the start button perhaps do something? Do I need to replace this green diode?  I'm hopless

[sheldogg]

The disconnected diode

[Adrian II]

sheldogg,

that is not a diode. That is one half of a two-wire connector. Like this one.



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-8mm-110-series-Motorcycle-Mini-Latch-Wiring-Connector-Set-2-way-GREEN-/291691203220?hash=item43ea268a94

I'm hopless

Just don't chop anything else off.

A.

[sheldogg]

Thank you a 2 wire connector. But that's not why I can't start my bike, right? Given that I bridged over it?

[tooseevee]

2CV"
As "solenoid" is another word for "relay" I'll ask the question, did your AVL come with a separate relay between the starter button and the starter solenoid or, is it something you added?

The wiring diagram I have for the AVL doesn't show one.

               What's on an Enfield to me is just a relay, not a solenoid. A solenoid to me is what is on a starter that has a Bendix gear. When you hit the starter button a solenoid actually slams the Bendix gear into mesh with the flywheel and the starter then cranks the engine over.  The thing in the Enfield is just a big magnetic switch.

                 

[tooseevee]

2CV"
As "solenoid" is another word for "relay" I'll ask the question, did your AVL come with a separate relay between the starter button and the starter solenoid or, is it something you added?

The wiring diagram I have for the AVL doesn't show one.

             Yes, I added a Bosch 5-pin relay between the starter button and the existing large relay in the left sidecase. There's a whole thread on it with pictures that you may have missed.

[Adrian II]

It sounds like the big starter relay isn't working if you can get the starter motor to spin the engine by shorting the two large termainals out. If you can hear the relay actually make a click when you press the starter button, power is getting to it, but it's not then passing the juice from the battery down the thick wire to the starter motor.

Buy and fit a new solenoid relay like this one and repair your wiring as necessary:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Solenoid-Relay-Honda-CB500-CX500-Custom-DeLuxe-CBX-GL1000-Goldwing-/262919729958?hash=item3d373cb326:g:r6cAAOSwTM5Y4CxY&vxp=mtr

Fitting a secondary relay as tooseevee has done is a neat little extra which you could fit at anytime, but replacing the main starter relay is where I would go next.

A.

[heloego]

And it doesn't hurt to keep a spare on hand.

BTW, thanks for the link, Adrian! Been looking for that exact relay for some time now. Ordered a couple for stock! 

[Adrian II]

I hope the quality is OK! 

A.

[elysianforest]

My $0.02 is that I agree you've got a bad relay. It's definitely getting the control signal from the start button if you hear it clicking. You can always verify the continuity (or lack therof) by clipping your ohmmeter to the big terminals and pressing start. If the resistance goes to zero your relay works - if not, it doesn't. Wouldn't be terrible idea to disconnect the battery from it before testing as that'll be enough amps to fry your multimeter if you're misconfigured.

Do the continuity test on your kill switch leads as well. It's possible something came loose when you were mucking about in the switch.

btw - a solenoid does mechanical work like pushing a gear or a door, a relay makes an electrical connection

[Mick Bailey]

In my opinion adding an additional relay to the starter relay is adding needless complexity and more connections/contacts that can fail. The existing starter relay is already designed to operate off a low current supply and an additional relay serves no extra purpose, other than to make troubleshooting in the event of a problem more difficult.

[heloego]

"btw - a solenoid does mechanical work like pushing a gear or a door, a relay makes an electrical connection"

Bingo! 

[heloego]

"I hope the quality is OK!  "

   Shouldn't be any worse than the originals.  And may just be better. 
   I could throw a lot of different ones on as replacements, but somehow they just don't seem right.

[Mick Bailey]

I hope they're better. One real problem with the originals (and I've experienced this on two different bikes) is the relay sticking on due to the terminals welding closed. Turning off the ignition won't kill the starter once this happens, as the main switching contacts are independent of the switch circuit. It's a bad situation, with the starter continually engaged (even with the engine running) and the reason I always carry an emergency spanner in my pocket to disconnect the starter terminal if it should happen again.

[elysianforest]

One real problem with the originals (and I've experienced this on two different bikes) is the relay sticking on due to the terminals welding closed.

Yipes! That's awful. A wrench in the pocket is a very good idea. I may start doing the same - though I suspect the relay on my bike is not stock. I'll have to look into that...

[Arizoni]

Not to belabor it but a electrical relay uses a solenoid to actuate the electrical contacts to open or close the switch.

 Wikipedia says this about solenoids and I agree with it:

"In engineering, the term may also refer to a variety of transducer devices that convert energy into linear motion. The term is also often used to refer to a solenoid valve, which is an integrated device containing an electromechanical solenoid which actuates either a pneumatic or hydraulic valve, or a solenoid switch, which is a specific type of relay that internally uses an electromechanical solenoid to operate an electrical switch; for example, an automobile starter solenoid, or a linear solenoid, which is an electromechanical solenoid."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid

Anyway, if the relay/solenoid is clicking but the electrical contacts are not closing or conducting power from the battery to the starter motor, the thing should be replaced.

[REpozer]

Not to belabor it but a electrical relay uses a solenoid to actuate the electrical contacts to open or close the switch.

 Wikipedia says this about solenoids and I agree with it:

"In engineering, the term may also refer to a variety of transducer devices that convert energy into linear motion. The term is also often used to refer to a solenoid valve, which is an integrated device containing an electromechanical solenoid which actuates either a pneumatic or hydraulic valve, or a solenoid switch, which is a specific type of relay that internally uses an electromechanical solenoid to operate an electrical switch; for example, an automobile starter solenoid, or a linear solenoid, which is an electromechanical solenoid."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid

Anyway, if the relay/solenoid is clicking but the electrical contacts are not closing or conducting power from the battery to the starter motor, the thing should be replaced.

True, true. That way you can use a small wire to control a heavy wire at the battery.

[elysianforest]

Not to belabor it but a electrical relay uses a solenoid to actuate the electrical contacts to open or close the switch.

 Wikipedia says this about solenoids and I agree with it:

"In engineering, the term may also refer to a variety of transducer devices that convert energy into linear motion. The term is also often used to refer to a solenoid valve, which is an integrated device containing an electromechanical solenoid which actuates either a pneumatic or hydraulic valve, or a solenoid switch, which is a specific type of relay that internally uses an electromechanical solenoid to operate an electrical switch; for example, an automobile starter solenoid, or a linear solenoid, which is an electromechanical solenoid."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid

Anyway, if the relay/solenoid is clicking but the electrical contacts are not closing or conducting power from the battery to the starter motor, the thing should be replaced.

Then we have consensus! Thank you Wikipedia! Though I will point out that the solenoid switch is just one type of electrical relay... 

[sheldogg]

I'm happy my ignorance resulted in a thorough syntactic discussion. It wasn't just me calling the electric start relay a solenoid, but I and the rest of us who were had it wrong.

Update: I got my bike started. Went to the obvious solution tonight (spark plug) and that was the source. Previous owner actually had an automobile plug (higher resistance/less noise) in there; I swapped it for a small engine plug. Went for a ride and the bleeping main fuse blew out. Again.

I noticed that my ammeter was reading lower than it had prior to my adventures in tracing starter malfunction and prior to replacing the plug. That means more amperage from the stater to the battery during operation and a higher chance of that pesky fuse being blown, correct? So...why and what to do.

I didn't replace that 2-wire connector I had yanked out. But as it's a)passive and b)connected only to the starter button from the battery why would replacing it cause an amperage spike? Could it be, rather, that I used a plug I had lying about (for use in the combustion mower I haven't used since I went electric)?

I'm leaning towards the plug, keeping in mind that I must find a suitable 2-wire connector to replace the one I yanked out. Any suggestions on the ideal plug for this bike? Google returns this result (verified by a couple of top-result threads):

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/ngk-iridium-ix-spark-plug-bpr5eix-6597/15650094-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=15650094-P&c3apidt=21898413984&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhMjKBRDjxb31j-aesI4BEiQA7ivN-MofsTqBkqYJSsnn74TVSD8LMTFwIXqdTSEcoNnbYgIaAuVd8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

I also found these things:

http://www.sixity.com/4pcs-royal-enfield-bullet-500-ngk-standard-spark-plugs-500-kit-set-engine.html?gdffi=b1371d1e394c41aba12c50049d024483&gdfms=C93ED21A891044EA8ACE9D65491838CC&gclid=Cj0KEQjwhMjKBRDjxb31j-aesI4BEiQA7ivN-JOVJ_4gcKexZUG8y6Tsak5toBFp9SrJa4DJbU6VQUQaAt2k8P8HAQ

https://www.ebay.com/i/272728860785?chn=ps&dispItem=1

I'm considering going up from 15a fuse to 20a fuse. Are there any perils involved? My battery rates 14a so...maybe I shouldn't?

[elysianforest]

I'm considering going up from 15a fuse to 20a fuse. Are there any perils involved? My battery rates 14a so...maybe I shouldn't?

No, you shouldn't. You can probably get away with it for a short while before stuff starts melting, but you're not solving the issue. The issue is that you have something that is drawing too many amps - very likely a short somewhere.

It's not very likely to be your little mower plug, but who knows. You should certainly begin with the right plug. I like the NGK B9ES, which I do believe is a pretty standard plug for this bike. There is a chance it can produce some radio interference that will mess with your TCI*, but you should be alright as long as you have a metal plug cap. If your cap has been replaced with a rubber one, go for the BR9ES, which has a resistor in it and will reduce the interference. The non-resistor types have a bit stronger spark since there isn't that electrical loss, but not enough to really be able to tell. The iridiums seem like a waste of moolah to me since you're probably gonna be tweaking this bike on a regular basis.

What your mower plug very likely is is too short. That means it is probably recessed in the plug hole which can cause hot spots and misfires and carbon buildup. Eww. Get it outta there!

Okay, I really gotta go to bed. Goodnight!

*Edit: TCI - not TDI. Was too late last night. I don't think there's any turbo diesel to concern yourself with!

[Mick Bailey]

The plug is not the cause of your problems. In any case, you need to have the correct plug for your engine. There are various noise suppression aspects the the HT circuit - the plug lead itself (can be copper or carbon/polymer core) the plug cap (can be resistor or non-resistor type) and the plug itself (resistor or non-resistor). Metal screening around the plug cap is in addition to any resistive element to the circuit. There is no reason to replace the stock cap unless it's giving problems. If you do, I recommend using a resistive cap (5K Ohm) with the stock NGK B9ES plug. The NGK plug caps are pretty much infallible and I've been using them since the early 80s in all kinds of weather and conditions.

Because the HT side of your coil is high-impedance, the presence of a series resistance in the lead, cap  or plug does little to diminish the spark intensity. However, it does reduce EMI which can cause mis-triggering of the TCI at higher RPM.

The starter circuit is only fused on the low-current side. On the high-current side the starter is connected directly to the battery via the starter relay and is unfused. Once the bike is running this is disconnected. A fuse blowing while you're riding is most likely to be an intermittent short somewhere, perhaps a chafed wire, but it will not be the plug that's causing this.

[tooseevee]

Update: I got my bike started. Went to the obvious solution tonight (spark plug) and that was the source. Previous owner actually had an automobile plug (higher resistance/less noise) in there; I swapped it for a small engine plug. Went for a ride and the bleeping main fuse blew out. Again.

            Get the mower plug out and you don't need an Iridium (100,000 mile) plug.

            You want a B9ES if you have the OEM resistor cap. If not, you want a BR9ES. Just find the best free shipping deal online and order some. You will need more than one plug while you are dialing in this bike.

             This is a very simple basic engine. Stick to the basics.

              Any good two-pin connector will replace the one you chopped out.

[REpozer]

Just a heads up here to newbies , you got some high end contributors here with good advice.
Honorable mention to Arizoni who no doubt is related to Dr Oldsmobile.
And 2CV , so skilled he can stop a leak with oakum and saltwater, probably could brew a Blaatz beer clone?

[Arizoni]

sheldogg said
...I'm considering going up from 15a fuse to 20a fuse. Are there any perils involved? My battery rates 14a so...maybe I shouldn't?

Your confusing maximum amperage output with Amp/Hour ratings.

The 14 AH (amp hour) rating is the amount of power the fully charged can deliver in the period of one hour before it's run down.

The battery is fully capable of delivering over 60 amps for short periods of time.  In fact, your starter motor draws over 50 amps of power while it is running.

For a very short period of time I wouldn't be surprised to find the battery is totally capable of delivering over 100 amps of power.  Even if it can't, it is totally capable of melting your entire wiring harness if a short occurs.

[tooseevee]

For a very short period of time I wouldn't be surprised to find the battery is totally capable of delivering over 100 amps of power.  Even if it can't, it is totally capable of melting your entire wiring harness if a short occurs.

            Drop a wrench across your (not you; anybody) battery's terminals and it'll show you how powerful it is in glorious high def living color

             I did it once in the '60s on a 24V boat battery that weighed almost as much as I do. (I weighed the same then as now). 

[Mick Bailey]

Not so common with bike batteries, but car and truck batteries often sold on 'cranking power', which is some hundreds of amps. A/H rating doesn't give a true picture of what the battery can (or needs) to deliver when starting an engine, especially in sub-zero temperatures.

[elysianforest]

...Even if it can't, it is totally capable of melting your entire wiring harness if a short occurs.

Arizoni's hit the nail on the head here. This is also why we don't put in higher amperage fuses - 7 or 8 feet of 18 gauge wire can burn if it's got 20 amps on it.

[jefrs]

Examination of the CSA of the wiring in the harness indicates is is good 20A continuous and more intermittent, i.e. good for 240 watts. About 2.5mm², less than 2mm diameter can carry 20A, voltage is irrelevant and the voltage drop over the length of a bike is insignificant.  If fact capable of running a pair of 55W spot lamps (an extra 10A) straight off the main beam wire. Everything-on is about 100W, about 9A - that can be doubled without additional wiring, fuses or relays. RE wiring may be crude but it is heavy-duty.
No, the wire is not going to melt the insulation, the wires are too thick.
The fuses are often whatever RE felt like fitting at the time. The main fuse can be 15A or 20A. The signalling and the lighting fuse can be 10A or 15A (if you switch to twin horns, stick a 15A in). The ECU fuse should be 10A. Total Watts/Volts=Amps for fuse rating, round up to nearest 5A.
The alternator appears to be capable of 220 watts.
Using the ten-times rule of thumb the 14Ah battery can output 140A (for 6 minutes). It can probably output more but at some risk of warping the plates.