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Author Topic: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500  (Read 1118 times)

Yamahawk

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Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« on: June 18, 2017, 10:55:38 am »
Hi all,
   I have been riding the wheels off my Bullet, it now has approximately 2200 miles on it, and I have noticed that it uses a lot of oil. It isn't burning oil, and it does leak some, but not enough to account for the 1/2 quart or more every time I ride it. Now, these rides may be from 60-120 miles at a time, and I think maybe it is blowing out the duckbill breather. It is short, perhaps 8-9" and I have had to cut it off once to remount it on the crudely shaped protrusion on the side of the cases. I have been reading some posts about this, and suggestions have been to route the breather hose out the back, and raise it up to create a high point above the nipple. Currently, it is sort of pointed at the chain... the duckbill is just a heat-flattened end of the tubing. well, my questions are several, as if you route the hose back to the rear of the bike, do you still need the duckbill? And are the aluminum duckbill valves I see on eBay complete or is there something you need on the end of them, and are they better or worse than the flattened neoprene tubing?? I could actually crimp part of the ending hose at the rear of the bike with a zip tie, to simulate the duckbill, or I could use a nipple to add my existing duckbill to the longer hose. And is there another problem that I should look for to account for the oil consumption... wet sumping hasn't been too much of a problem, either.
Any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated!
Charlie
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

Blltrdr

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2017, 11:34:30 am »
Yes you still need the duckbill if routing to rear. Routing to rear of bike is the way to go. Routing to chain creates a mess and could get oil slung on tire which is not good.

Don't fill oil to top of dipstick, keep it about half way. Also keep your oil tank cap in vented position not fully tightened buy set at mid detent. You can shorten/cut the duckbill by about half of the flat. Check your forward sump drain plug. Remove the drain plug and if you take a mirror and look up inside the case you will see a oil gallery in the drain hole. measure the distance from the hole to the bottom of the case with a bent wire and a sharpie then compare the measurement with the drain plug measuring from washer to top of threads. Add washers if needed so drain plug doesn't block the gallery.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
2009 HD FLHT Police 103 6 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2017, 09:31:18 pm »
Thanks for the info Biltrdr, I will check the plug, I just got done with an oil and filter change, and took out the quill bolt to check the seal there. I actually bought what I thought was a new worm gear with bonded neoprene seal in it last year, but it didn't have the neoprene seal in it!! So, I will bite the 'bullet' and either purchase a neoprene seal, or find one that actually has the 'bonded' seal in it, for the next oil change. Pretty sure the cork seal is still in use in the worm gear... I have heard that switching to neoprene was the correct thing to do.
Again, anyone ever use the aluminum duckbill breather?
....like this one!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-ROYAL-ENFIELD-DUCKBILL-BREATHER-PIPE-ALLUMINIUM-VALVE-/111571636239?hash=item19fa30100f:g:DNsAAOSw-W5Usmkp&vxp=mtr
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 07:44:38 am »
This morning, I checked the oil cap with dipstick, and it doesn't seem to have a center detent... it also has a vent pin hole in the top of the cap, leading me to believe it is vented. I do have an 1/8 of a turn between the detent and fully rotated 'closed' i really don't know what detent would be in the middle position, as the oil cap only presses down, then you turn it past the 'detent' and it pops back up under spring pressure. Is there another type of oil filler cap that has two detents, one for running and one for storage? I am going to find some tubing today that will fit the breather on the cases, and run it out back, and install the duckbill with a coupling nipple, and two clamps. I will trim the duckbill also as Biltrdr suggested, and see if I can lessen my oil consumption.
Charlie
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

malky

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 09:57:20 am »
Once you have fitted a longer breather hose, fix a container to the end of it to see if it is blowing out any oil when you go out on your next run. If it doesn't collect any, but you are still using oil then you have eliminated one possibility.
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Blltrdr

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2017, 10:40:33 am »
This morning, I checked the oil cap with dipstick, and it doesn't seem to have a center detent... it also has a vent pin hole in the top of the cap, leading me to believe it is vented. I do have an 1/8 of a turn between the detent and fully rotated 'closed' i really don't know what detent would be in the middle position, as the oil cap only presses down, then you turn it past the 'detent' and it pops back up under spring pressure. Is there another type of oil filler cap that has two detents, one for running and one for storage? I am going to find some tubing today that will fit the breather on the cases, and run it out back, and install the duckbill with a coupling nipple, and two clamps. I will trim the duckbill also as Biltrdr suggested, and see if I can lessen my oil consumption.
Charlie

The detent is on the cap. From what I've been told screwing all the way down closes off the vent completely and if you back it off counterclockwise to the detent this is in the vented position. This is a feature that was found on Bullets up to about 2004 when they changed the breather system. You can use a splice fitting on the end of your tubing out the back and cut down the tubing end of the duckbill breather to fit onto it. I found that the duckbill tubing to be too flexible compared to the tubing used to run out the back which is more ridged so cutting it down made it easier to mount with a clamp behind the license plate mount. I know everyone's Bullet is setup differently but, I think you get where I'm coming from.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
2009 HD FLHT Police 103 6 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2017, 04:11:14 pm »
Well, I have some pics of the breather modification, and here they are... I ramped the hose uphill and out the back of the bike, and attached the duckbill with a piece of 3/8" tubing with hose clamps. I have determined that perhaps the oil cap vent was clogged, and I cleaned it with a 1/16" drill bit and some brake cleaner. I can now blow through the vent holes in the oil cap, and feel air at the underside of the cap.
I will attach a small pill bottle to the duckbill where it comes out by the license plate, and see if there is any oil coming out the breather, thanks Malky! Also, thanks Biltrdr for the helpful suggestions! I have faith that there will be a bottom to get to in this situation lol... Other than that, the bike is running rather well and as soon as it stops raining  :-\ I will go for a ride and check it out. O course, it started after I came inside to take a break lol...

UPDATE!
I took the bike for a ride of about 30 miles, some at highway speeds of 4k RPM,and it is passing about 1/2 ounce of oil on this ride. the bottle was about 4 oz fluid, it is a vitamin D3 bottle, I slit the cap in two places,  and slid the duckbill into it and wedged it behind the license plate and the saddlebag. However, the dipstick still shows fairly close to the full mark, and the oil in the oil tank is still golden in color on the dipstick. Perhaps it isn't using as much now, but time will tell!
I will post the pic of the container in the next post.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 06:30:04 pm by Yamahawk »
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 06:33:47 pm »
Here is the pic of the oil bottle
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

Blltrdr

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 09:40:40 pm »
You should be running the tubing up higher so the angle is steeper, attach to the frame and then route to the back. You want that steep angle because it acts as a standpipe. Lots has been written about this subject with Ace commenting on the why's/why not's and so on. Some great reading if you want to check it out. Also like I suggested before, you don't want your oil close to the full mark, half way is better.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 09:48:34 pm by Blltrdr »
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
2009 HD FLHT Police 103 6 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 06:35:56 am »
Well, I could run it steeper, but not higher, as it is already on the frame rail behind the side box. I have read a lot about the breather, but not about the 'standpipe'. It makes sense that if it was steeper, it would collect the oil, or at least more oil, before it blows out the back. But, once the standpipe has enough oil in it (as there is considerable oil density in the air/oil fog in the crankcase) to block airflow and build pressure, it would still blow out the duckbill... at least I think it would. I will see if there is a way to point it up and run it forward of the ignition cover.
As for the oil level, there are some owners that don't have a problem with the full mark, and some that state that it should be half-way, and some even lower than that. I figure that I will start there (full mark) and see if there is a level it will diminish to, then hold steady. Then, that would be my full point...
I do believe oil loss through the duckbill is inevitable as there is no filter to stop it. Has anyone ever tried a filter of some kind like some automotive applications have used? Just a thought...
Charlie
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 03:07:07 pm »
I re-ran the line vertical this afternoon, and used a piece of thin wall aluminum tube to splice the rubber hose and give it some definition to stay straight. I think that is as good as I can get it, will see how it works now! I routed it over the petcock, and then under the seat to where I have it zip tied to the frame rail. One thing is sure, it is a standpipe now! Before and after pics...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 03:10:01 pm by Yamahawk »
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

Blltrdr

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 04:38:07 pm »
That looks better. With mine I find a few drops of mayo on the ground after I stop the bike for a period, which is what it is supposed to do. If you are total pc and are a tree hugger you can add a catch for the mayo. Not having a catch gives it that period correctness with some kind of fluid leaking out from somewhere. Hopefully this helps your oil loss Yamahawk.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
2009 HD FLHT Police 103 6 spd
1992 Kawasaki ZG 1200 Voyager XII
1977 Yamaha XS 360-2D (Cafe Project)

Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2017, 02:13:49 pm »
Well, after the ride today without the catch bottle, there was an oil film all over the rear left saddlebag, a little on the right one, and oil on the left side of the rear tire... not good. So if I do vent the duckbill out the back by the fender, I will have to use a catch bottle. Anyone else have this much oil coming out the breather duckbill? At least I am sure that this is where it is going. On a plus, the oil level isn't going down as much as it did.
I haven't pulled the front sump plug yet, as biltrdr suggested, and checked the oil galley... what would this have to do with excessive oil consumption? Should I check this, and what effect does it have if the oil drain plug is too high? I am curious as to why there is so much oil blown out the duckbill.
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27

Arizoni

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 05:11:46 pm »
Quote
...I haven't pulled the front sump plug yet, as biltrdr suggested, and checked the oil galley... what would this have to do with excessive oil consumption? Should I check this, and what effect does it have if the oil drain plug is too high? I am curious as to why there is so much oil blown out the duckbill.

The front drain plug is in the crankcase sump drain system.

 Oil thrown off of the crank collects in the crankcase and it is removed thru a drain hole that leads into the galley that the front drain plug screws into.
The oil is removed by the front oil pump and delivered to the rocker arms thru the tube that runs from the sidecover up to the rocker arms.

If the front drain plug is just a bit too long, it can partially or totally plug up the drain leading to a high oil level in the crankcase.

This excess oil can be picked up and thrown around in the crankcase by the crankshaft and lower end of the connecting rod and find its way out thru the vent.

That can lead to the problem you see.
Jim
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Yamahawk

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Re: Oil Consumption in a 1996 Iron Barrel Bullet 500
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 09:44:27 pm »
AhA! ..wish I had an emoji of a lightbulb here... now I see where this could be the common denominator in my oil slinging dilemma. I will pull the front sump plug and check it for length, as per Biltrdr's instructions! Thanks, Jim for the clear and concise description as to why the plug would contribute to the oil being blown out the breather. I would hazard to say, it is the smoking gun... will check it tomorrow!
Charlie
Think about the circumstances of your call...Not many were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were born to a privileged position. But God chose what the world thinks foolish to shame the wise, and God chose what the world thinks as weak to shame the strong. 1 Cor 1:26-27