[sheldogg]

What a pain; new guy shows up and straight away it's, "Help me with my bike!"

2006 Electra purchased yesterday, no visible mods in the power system. Me and the previous owner fired it up and ran it around a bit - I talked him down quite a lot because the electric starter didn't work. But we both kicked it on in one go and everything seemed fine.

Got it home, fired it up after a few hours, and while aiming it to get going the bike completely died. Motor chugged once and cut out, and all systems fail.

The key, in the on position, now does nothing at all. No horn, headlamp, instrument lights, and of course, no ignition.

*Things I did: tended the battery - it's full and discharging 12+ volts steady. Tested the main fuse - it reads the same resistance as when I connect the ends of my multimeter and shows no signs of disrepair.

I have no idea where to go from there. Battery and main fuse are good, no evidence of a loose/broken wire from ignition to positive terminal, so what next? Can anyone point me?

[Ice]

 Welcome sheldogg.

 No worries, we were all new once or twice.

O.k. then, the battery. How old is it ? See that number heat stamped into the top ? It's the date code. Google will tell you how to decipher it. Batteries can take a charge and test good with volt meter...and not work worth salt. Troble shooting requires a strong fresh battery that has been load tested as good, even if it is borrowed and connected with jumpers. 

 You tested the fuse, good. Next up line if I recall is the ignition switch. Is battery voltage making up to the switch ? How about through the switch ?
 From there it goes to the kill switch on the right grip. Is it on or off ? Don't laugh we have all done it and I'll be the first to admit it.  Does the bike have a switch on the side stand mount ?

 Now your Elctra.  Is it in Europe or North America ? 

In the west Electra is a model of bike exclusive only to AVL engine powered Bullets with disc brakes.
 In India it is a descriptive of an ignition system that is fitted to Iron Barrel and AVL engines.

 We need to know in order to start looking for a wiring diagram.

[DanB]

Couple of basics to try:

1. Make sure the ground to the bike frame is good. Just on the front end of the air box, behind carb.

2. Side stand is up, right?

3. Check those battery cables really well! The connector break under the heat shrink. They look ok, but are not.

4. Battery, all the stuff brother Ice said.

5. There's a rats nest in the head lamp bucket. Check all connectors to the amp meter and the key switch.  Do all the other stuff before this step.

I have schematics for the Western Electra. Same year as yours. I'm not home at the moment, and can get to it in Monday night if needed.

Good luck!

[Mick Bailey]

The chassis ground connection is prone to fracturing and needs careful inspection. The bolt needs to be tight and the eyelet terminal making good contact with the frame. The ignition switch internal contacts can corrode. My bike failed immediately after a 90-mile run. After stopping I turned the key and it was dead. A squirt of contact cleaner (though in an emergency I used WD-40) into the key hole and operating the switch a few times has cured it for the last two months.

The bike should start manually with a fairly low battery unless it is seriously sulphated. A test is to measure the battery voltage with the ignition turned on. If the voltage drops significantly, then it has a high internal resistance that drops the voltage when current flows in accordance with Ohm's law. If the voltage doesn't drop it's likely you have a high resistance or open-circuit elsewhere.

If your ignition switch is in the nacelle then you can remove the nut and drop the switch out if you turn the handlebar to the right. Leave it connected and use your multimeter to check that voltage is reaching the terminals (check between an good earthed point on the chassis such as the engine block). Refer to your handbook for wiring colours.

[REpozer]

Welcome!
Just to chime in ,
Yes the negative battery cable to frame ( under the seat) was loose and needed to be cleaned with sand paper. Worth a look.

[Michael Marsceill]

Fuel shutoff?

[Michael Marsceill]

My bad. Didn't see the OP about no lights, horn etc.

[sheldogg]

Hi everybody!

Thanks for the input. I lied about checking only the battery and main fuse; I also checked the main ground (negative planted in front of the carb). It checks out as well. Just in case I've detached, cleaned and re-attached it.

The battery is relatively new (02/14), and it read 50% when I put the charger on it. At high-amp rate the charge slowed to just about nothing at 88%. I didn't bother to trickle (1.5 amp) from there because when I tested the leads (not the battery nodes, but the leads going to cycle power), it read steady 12.6v. The fuse visually checks out, and resistance from the leads is steady 0.8, but I wonder about the size - it's only a 10 amp. Though if it works it's not my problem, right?

I don't know how to test anything else. At all. So there are what 6 or so relays running around, any one of which could result in the complete ignition fail? I suspect the first relay, directly under the left grip a few inches after the ignition switch. There's also the rat's nest under the seat.

My problem is a lack of expertise. I do not know how to test anything but the fuse, battery and ground. It could not be the starter as what I've got is no response to ignition switch. I'll read through all your replies again, and if anyone notices a problem with my description of the battery (as in, isn't it weird that it'd be @ 50% when power cut out and wouldn't take a high-amp charge past 88%?) please chime in.

Not giving up, 
Sheldogg

[sheldogg]

Testing the ignition switch - how? Am I looking to read voltage or ohms? And in what spectrum? Another two points - the ammeter on the instrument panel was fluxing in the red between the center-left hash and straight-up vertical while running in idle, steady straight-up while accelerating. Just before the electrical failed the orange light below and to the right of the speedometer was illuminated.

It's a USA build. Oh and yes the kill switch is off and kickstand up (though I'd get power to instrument panel with the stand down, just no starter).

[Mick Bailey]

6 Relays? I'm in the UK and the bikes we have here don't have any relays. Do you have a wiring diagram?

I already posted about checking voltage is reaching your ignition switch. You need to check voltage - so set your meter to the same scale as when you tested your battery. You're looking for 12v, measured between a good ground connection and to check if there's a voltage reaching any of the terminals that go to the back of your switch. So, black meter lead to (say) engine block and red to probe the switch. The ignition doesn't need to be on - you just need to know at this stage if there's a voltage present at the switch.

How did you check there was voltage to the instrument panel?

[Arizoni]

The wiring diagram I have for the AVL shows two fuses.
The main fuse is between the battery and the amp meter.  It is a 15 amp fuse.

Another fuse is located between the Kill switch and the Electronic Ignition box.  It is a 10 amp fuse.

Check your fuses by setting your Volt/Ohm meter on the OHM settings.
Touch the leads together and your meter should show practically 0.0 ohms resistance.
Then, connect one lead to one end of the fuse and the other lead to the other end of the fuse.  The meter should read the same value (give or take a tiny bit) as it did when the leads were touching each other.

You cannot test a fuse by just looking at it.  Yes a "blown fuse" will be obvious but one that looks great can have an internal break that stops the flow of power thru it.
Use the meter to test it.

In all other tests you will be looking for voltage so set your meter to the lowest "max" voltage your meter has.  Mine has a 20 volt setting which works great for my 12 volt battery.

Use this setting to see if power is getting to various things by clamping the negative (-) lead to some bare area of the frame or engine.  A unpainted cylinder fin works pretty good.
Use the other (+) lead to test for the presence of power.
Starting with the battery, its + terminal should show at least 12 volts.

The next place to check is both terminals on the bottom of the amp meter.  The RED wire is power from the battery.  The RED/YELLOW wire provides power to every thing else.  (The colors may be different and don't bother with the two wires for the light bulb (black and gray?)).  In any case, both terminals should show 12 volts of power.

From the amp meter the power goes to the regulator/rectifier and to the ignition switch.  (RED wire to the ignition switch).
A RED&WHITE wire goes from the ignition switch to several other places and it only has power when the ignition switch is in the ON position.
As far as the bike running goes, the power goes to

Because everything seemed to die at the same time, I suspect the fault is in the wires or fuse leading to the ignition switch or the switch itself.

I don't know about your bike but some of the older Royal Enfields do not power their headlight from the battery.  On these older bikes the headlight is powered by the alternator and it only works when the engine is running.

Your horn and your tail light on the other hand should work (if it is good) when the ignition power is on.

I think your "Kill switch" will stop power from going to almost everything on the bike but I'm having difficulty tracing everything it controls.

[Adrian II]

I don't know about your bike but some of the older Royal Enfields do not power their headlight from the battery.  On these older bikes the headlight is powered by the alternator and it only works when the engine is running.

The Electra-X and 500 AVL classic have a three-phase alternator similar to the later EFI models, all the lighting and ignition take their power from the battery.

A.

[sheldogg]

If I'm doing this right (key turned to on, battery tested 12.6v, ground lead on starter red lead to ammeter anodes) then I have no power from the battery to my ammeter, which means no power to ignition. 0 voltage was my ammeter read. I have other problems, but the first issue is finding this failure. I don't know how.

So I'm going against my inclinations and posting pictures. I couldn't get them all in this message so they're loaded to the gallery. You'll notice the stock seat isn't on the ride - in this case it makes it possible to see some stuff without my removing the seat. My problem is finding the main fuse.

I can't fargin believe it, but it must be so, because the housing in the first photo contains a 10a fuse, which isn't the main fuse. What's this taped-up cylinder in the next three photos? If I unwrap it will St. Niklaus give me the main 15a fuse? If not please see if there's an indication of the main fuse location in the three photos taken of the space under the seat.

And if the main fuse is not the problem, the one between the battery and the ammeter (which both the wiring diagram and Arizoni agree would be the main), then what could be causing the disruption?

[ace.cafe]

Possible broken cable or broken cable connector.

[Adrian II]

+1 to that, my Electra had a broken cable from the battery to the ammeter.

I found the break in in the wiring next to the headstock where the wiring loom has to flex around it. The insulation can get brittle and the whole cable snaps. If you rig up a temporary wire from the battery's positive terminal to the ammeter and everything comes back to life you have found the problem.

If not, keep looking, sorry!

A.

[Arizoni]

If your asking about that black cylinder on the left, in the picture background that has the plastic electrical tape wrapped around it, that is the starter solenoid.

As you've found, the black plastic clam-shell thing your holding is the fuse container.

For what it's worth, I found a wiring diagram for the AVL here on the forum.

The link to it is in the second post down from the top and I checked it.  It's called "REelec.pdf"  The link still works.  It is a PDF file so your will need Adobe or some other PDF reader to see it and I strongly suggest you do a "Save As" and copy it into your computer for future reference.

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php?topic=19688.0

[sheldogg]

Update, problem found, attempted solutions nil.

So yes, there is no power to the ammeter. It reads 0 volt. I disconnected the connection points and got no spark when tapping them together, but I'm getting ahead of myself; I did that last of all.

I cannot find the main fuse. That fuse in the pic I posted is 10a, and tests good anyhow. I'm looking for a 15a coming off the positive (though that 10a appears to be doing just that). Shouldn't it be in the same sort of housing as the 10a which is good anyhow?

So I ran some cheap wire from the battery to the ammeter terminals. Cheap wire may be the reason for what happened next, I don't know. The connection just fried the wires. But, when the connection was made, the ammeter readout jumped into the green. What didn't happen was the ammeter backlight turning on, nor did the ignition work.

Before I set up a proper temporary rig I wanted to tell that story and get some feedback. If you've got any.

Tracing this bad wire back to the battery is going to take a lot of splicing and dicing, and that's after I remove the fuel tank and seat. I'm not up for it if there's a chance this is not the problem. I want to verify, for certain, that power to the ammeter is the initial contact point for the ignition and instrument panel.

And I wail again: why can I find only 1 fuse when the wiring diagram insists that there are 2?

Thanks for all your feedback. I know there's no power to the ammeter, but not how to fix the bleeding thing.

[sheldogg]

I found the break in in the wiring next to the headstock where the wiring loom has to flex around it.

I'm confused by the term 'headstock'. Do you mean the area to the front of the fuel tank, under the center of the handlebars or the rat's nest behind the headlamp?

Forgive the ignorance. Thanks for your patience.

[Ice]

 The portion of the frame in front of the fuel tank.

 In this diagram No. 1 refers to the frame itself but coincidentally is pointing to the portion of the frame we call "head stock".

It also sometimes called steer head, steer-er head, steering head, goose neck.   

[REpozer]

I'm confused by the term 'headstock'. Do you mean the area to the front of the fuel tank, under the center of the handlebars or the rat's nest behind the headlamp?

Forgive the ignorance. Thanks for your patience.

Its okay , friend. You will learn some British, Indian English along with improving your mechanical skills.

[tooseevee]

Before I set up a proper temporary rig I wanted to tell that story and get some feedback. If you've got any.

Tracing this bad wire back to the battery is going to take a lot of splicing and dicing, and that's after I remove the fuel tank and seat. I'm not up for it if there's a chance this is not the problem. I want to verify, for certain, that power to the ammeter is the initial contact point for the ignition and instrument panel.

And I wail again: why can I find only 1 fuse when the wiring diagram insists that there are 2?

           I've had that whole bloody loom apart down to the last wire and connector so get yourself ready to face the worst rat's nest of electrical lunacy you've ever seen. I had my whole '08 apart and can vouch for every minute of every hour redoing it all to where I would trust it. There are 30 wires in there and mine had miles of sticky black tape wrapped round and round (repeat) to "make it safe" and some connections made by just twisting the wires together. Take your time and it can be made bulletproof, but it can be very time consuming.

        Yes, there are two fuses (somewhere). The one you've found is the 10 amp for the ECU, etc.. The other is the main as you say. Mine was in the left side case.

         I replaced both of them long ago with a blade type fuse & holder for the ECU and a resetable circuit breaker for the Main while I was redoing all my '08's rat'snests. 

          Good luck with whatever you do    The gas tank is very easy, very simple. Don't be scared of it.   

           I spent a couple hours this morning putting a relay in the starter switch circuit to take the full hot 12V off the Minda switch. Here's my left side case now. (I did away with quite a few unneeded factory components years ago).

           The old glass fuse holder down in the corner now holds spare blade-type 10 amp fuses for the ECU, etc. fuse holder which is up there under the seat somewhere (Red wires).   The Main circuit breaker is up at the top of the left side case.

[Arizoni]

...

So I ran some cheap wire from the battery to the ammeter terminals. Cheap wire may be the reason for what happened next, I don't know. The connection just fried the wires. But, when the connection was made, the ammeter readout jumped into the green. What didn't happen was the ammeter backlight turning on, nor did the ignition work.

...

You didn't say if the ignition switch was off or on when you connected your "cheap" jumper wire and that could have a lot to do with the wire "frying".

With the ignition switch OFF, the jumper wire would not be carrying and current so, if the wire fried under that condition, there is a short to ground somewhere in the harness.

If the ignition switch was ON when you connected the jumper, the ECU, headlight, parking lights and tail light would be powered thru the jumper.
If the jumper was a very small guage wire like speaker wire, it would probably be overloaded and fry.

If the jumper was a 10, 12, 14 or maybe even a 16 guage wire, it should not have overheated and your lights should have come on.

I don't know how well we can trust that wiring diagram but it shows the two wires going to the ECU (TCI) with the fuse in them are brown.
The two wires going into the MAIN fuse are red.

The two wires in the picture on the previous page look like they are brown.

Looking at that picture I see a large lump of plastic electrical tape on the large, red + wire that is attached to the battery.
That lump may be covering the elusive, missing main fuse.  Unwrap it.

It is at this location that the small red wire should connect to the main red power supply wire so I suspect you will find something interesting under that tape.

The fact that your ammeter jumped into the green may have more to do with which of the two terminals you attached the jumper wire to but IMO, if you connected the wire to the IGN side of the meter it should not have registered any reading at all.
If you connected the jumper to the POWER IN side of the amp meter with the ignition switch ON it should have jumped towards the red "discharge" side of the meter.

[tooseevee]

I don't know how well we can trust that wiring diagram but it shows the two wires going to the ECU (TCI) with the fuse in them are brown.
The two wires going into the MAIN fuse are red.

            I've found the one that Greenie linked to be very accurate for my '08 AVL Classic and I've been into every wire. It's labelled Complete Circuit. There's another one out there labelled Complete Circuit - Bullet Electra - E Start. Also accurate (for my '08). Got them both from Pete Snidal when I first got the bike.

             Yes, the TCI fuse is in the Brown wire.

             PS: Your knowledge of bike electrickery is mind-blowing and VERY helpful over the years. I've learned everything I know about it by treating the wires like water pipes. I trust my RE to be bullet-proof wirewise now, but it took a lotta time, patience, head scratching, headaches, do-overs to get it all OK. The theory I DO know doesn't matter much     

[Adrian II]

I've learned everything I know about it by treating the wires like water pipes.

Can't really go wrong like that...

A.

[sheldogg]

The two wires in the picture on the previous page look like they are brown.

Looking at that picture I see a large lump of plastic electrical tape on the large, red + wire that is attached to the battery.
That lump may be covering the elusive, missing main fuse.  Unwrap it.

It is at this location that the small red wire should connect to the main red power supply wire so I suspect you will find something interesting under that tape.

Hallelujah. There was that motherscratchin' main fuse. Housing went the way of all things years ago, and I was looking for a rectangle similar to the 10a TCI fuse I'd found. And, being a novice, I didn't want to go unwrapping every wrapped-up wire (as they're pretty much all wrapped up).

The main fuse was, indeed, blown. 6 days my dumbass spent looking elsewhere, knowing all the while that I had to find that main fuse. Replace it, and I'm in business (well, not riding, new thread for that).

Thank you all for your input and guidance. I learned a thing or two about following leads. I also learned that Akam's razor logic demands patience and a cool head in motorcycle maintenance. Simple cause: blown fuse. Simple solution: find the blown fuse and don't move on until you've eliminated that as the cause.

[heloego]

   Instead of thinking how much time was wasted, think of all the you've learned from these guys in the interim!