[tooseevee]

      Would someone please very clearly explain to me how this frigging clutch switch bullshit switch works and why I can't do away with it?

       I want to be able to start the engine electrically in neutral without holding the clutch in IF I! CHOOSE to. Just like I turn the head light on when I! want it on.

      The switch has a Black wire from the Starter relay, a Brown wire from the Neutral Light/Neutral Switch wire and a Green to Ground.

       It looks like when you pull the lever it closes the Black wire's connection to Ground (the Green wire) allowing the Relay and Starter to do their thing.

      Or am I all wrong and the clutch lever only has to be pulled if the Neutral Switch is Open?, IOW in gear. If so, I've just been suffering under a miscontrusionment all these years.

[tooseevee]

      Would someone please very clearly explain to me how this frigging clutch switch bullshit switch works and why I can't do away with it?

       I want to be able to start the engine electrically in neutral without holding the clutch in IF I! CHOOSE to. Just like I turn the head light on when I! want it on.

            Never mind. I found it all online and in the back pages of the forum. And Youtube.

[mattsz]

Glad you found the info you were after!  I didn't want to chime in with no helpful answers.  But while we're here...

What did you discover?  My 2011 UCE B5 does start in neutral without holding the clutch in - the clutch switch only comes into play if the bike is in gear when you press the magic button...

[tooseevee]

What did you discover?  My 2011 UCE B5 does start in neutral without holding the clutch in - the clutch switch only comes into play if the bike is in gear when you press the magic button...

           Yes. As you state is correct for the AVL also.

            The Neutral "switch" is just a path to Ground for the Starter Relay when the gear box is in neutral.

             When the gear box is NOT in neutral, the Clutch Lever Switch provides a path to Ground for the Starter Relay.

             I only use the electric for the first start of the day. From then on it's a one or two kicker. I just got used to pulling the clutch when using the electric because it seemed to start quicker and easier and I forgot I didn't HAVE to.

              I've never solved my cold kick start problem and believe me I have tried every combination and permutation over the years. After years of running various experiments, I'm 99% positive the problem is me. Plus some of it is the almost 10:1 compression from the head work ACE did (Thank you again). I am just not getting enough power out of my kick (when the engine and the oil are cold) to get the inertia to get past the plug driving the piston back down on it's way up. Believe me, I've obsessed and experimented over this for years and I'm sure I'm correct.

       I get instant cold starts with the electric button because the starter easily gets the piston past that troublesome, sprag-killing 2nd spark that seems to come right at the bottom of the kicker stroke (yes, I kick through and hold as far forward as possible and it still Klangs backwards when the plug fires). Once the engine and oil are hot (even really warm) I get easy, one or two kick starts with no sprag-killing KLANG! at the bottom of the kicker stroke like when the engine is stone cold.

        Actually it may be the 1st spark for all I know. All I know for sure is that this particular engine, with the head work, the TM 32 and my weak and wasted 140 pounds, absolutely will not kickstart cold. And it runs like a dream out on the road and I love it. Just the 1st stage headwork that Ace did made it a totally different bike from stock (Thanks again). Add the carb and open exhaust and now the Pertronix coil and it's just a great bike. I really wish I could kick start it cold and Never use the electric, but I just gave up on it last year. I did NOT want to keep jeopardizing the sprag by thinking it might still be a dialing in problem and continuing to get the Klang no matter WHAT I tried to tweak.   

[tooseevee]

       I think I've done away with all present and future problems with my Minda starter button not making positive reliable contact. At Arizoni's suggestion, I installed a regular 5-pin Bosch-type relay (Tyco) between the starter button and the big starter relay in the left sidecase. At the barest touch of the starter button now the starter spins its little Denso heart out every time, no hesitation, no wiggling, no praying 

         Before and After pictures below.
         The Main circuit breaker is at the top.
         The White connector goes to the stop light switch. The factory plastic, glass-fuse, holder now holds spare 10 amp blade-type fuses for the ECU/TCI fuse holder which is up under the seat.

          I've got a complete Minda right side switchset on a shelf now that I'll probably never need.  I'm almost getting to the point where I can really trust this great little bike 100% and what a long strange trip it's been. Now, if I was 30 years younger .... Ah, well. I had my times  

          I know. I know  I shoulda made the hot wire from the little relay to the big one Red. Best laid plans.....

[Adrian II]

This seems to be an excellent mod for any E/S Bullet, whether C.I., AVL/Electra-X or EFI. Glad it helps keep you on the road where you want to be.

The neutral light swith on my Electra would sometimes go on strike, needing the clutch pulled in in neutral to get the E/S to work.

A.

[heloego]

+1

   And very neatly done, I might add. 

[Arizoni]

2CV
Thanks for crediting me with the idea of adding a relay to your starter solenoid circuit but, I can't take credit for it.

I think Ice was the one who suggested it.

Glad to hear the new relay is doing its job and everything is working.
Well, maybe not everything but, your legs will recover from the lotus effects sometime within the next 2 weeks. 

[tooseevee]

2CV
Thanks for crediting me with the idea of adding a relay to your starter solenoid circuit but, I can't take credit for it.

I think Ice was the one who suggested it.

              Oh, sh*t - Y'er right. Sorry, Ice. Please don't let this come between us and keep those good suggestions coming 

[Ice]

Well I can't take credit for the idea either. 

 If you ever worked on a Dodge cars or trucks made from the early sixties to the late eighties you will recognize the concept. 

[tooseevee]

Well I can't take credit for the idea either. 

 If you ever worked on a Dodge cars or trucks made from the early sixties to the late eighties you will recognize the concept. 

           I know you didn't invent the relay, but you can take credit for giving ME the idea to add one to my PHD button. Take credit where credit is due  and thanks again. The next owner will be happy, too.

            And remember I'm a old dinosaur. I've had my head under hoods since I was 9 years old in 1947 & my mom was trying to keep her '36 Chevy safe from me while at the same time she was teaching me to drive it on the gravel roads and prairies around Cheyenne. I wish I still had the '40 Ford I drove all through high school. My mom helped me buy it before I even had a license. A lot of us in those days were driving long before we were legal.

             Do you remember that the '40 Ford had a starter button on the dash? And they had a steering lock that was similar to a motorcycle fork lock.

             Sorry. I blabber too much

[tooseevee]

   
          I know. I know  I shoulda made the hot wire from the little relay to the big one Red. Best laid plans.....

            During a break from grass mowing (it's been grey and wet here for daze and today the sun is out), I made that wire Red. I'm much happier now and can stop thinking about it 

             Sometimes being detail oriented can be a curse, but it's what I do 

[Dodd]

Tidy job mate.
Will you stick a pic up of the other side?
Interested to see the how you've enclosed the battery.

[tooseevee]

Tidy job mate.
Will you stick a pic up of the other side?
Interested to see the how you've enclosed the battery.

           I just now noticed your post (8:00AM Sunday). I'll get a shot of the battery side over the morning and post it.

           Thanks for asking. There is less and less AVL traffic as the years pass.

[tooseevee]

           I just now noticed your post (8:00AM Sunday). I'll get a shot of the battery side over the morning and post it.

           Thanks for asking. There is less and less AVL traffic as the years pass.

            Here's a picture of the battery in the right side sidecase. It's an MB5.5U size (the picture is a bit fuzzy - don't know why). This battery will give many electric starts if necessary although I kickstart just about all the time.

             And yes, it is well protected from shorting out on the cover by leather and pads of hard closed-cell foam which press the battery inboard and hold it steady when the cover is closed.

              And referencing my post of May 30 below: I DID solve my cold kick start problem totally. After many years of f**king around trying everything possible with no luck, I finally came to my senses and switched to Champion plugs. For some reason this engine just did not like the NKGs I've been using since day one while chasing this problem. I now have easy cold kick starts and reliable electric starts if I want. I totally trust this engine to start now both ways every time after many years of trying everything under the sun.  And I'm amazed that after years of chasing this problem (May 2014) and hearing that hated sprag klank! time after time, it still seems to be pretty much OK and there were no small bits of metal in the bottom of the primary last time I had the cover off (around Thanksgiving 2016).

           What I'd really like for Christmas is an exhaust gas analyzer so I could actually see what the mixture screw is doing. I still get no absolute indication when I tweak it; I only know it starts fine and runs miraculously well out on the road.

            The other thing I wish I could cure is the first 10 or 15 seconds of starting cold when if you DARE touch the throttle it will die, but it feels as if you MUST rev it a bit or it will die. So once in a while it is STILL tricky to keep running that first 15 seconds after which you can just walk away and it will tick over happily. It's very strange.

              But most times now overall it is a very easy starter compared to the years before of NO WAY would it kick start first thing on any given day.

               I've wished I lived down the lane from Bullet Whisperer a thousand times since 2014. Champion plug immediately like magic solved the problem I've been tearing my hair out over.   

[DanB]

Nice!  Damn that thing looks too clean  (or maybe I should give mine a once over!)

[Dodd]

The other thing I wish I could cure is the first 10 or 15 seconds of starting cold when if you DARE touch the throttle it will die, but it feels as if you MUST rev it a bit or it will die. So once in a while it is STILL tricky to keep running that first 15 seconds after which you can just walk away and it will tick over happily. It's very strange

Ditto 2
What NKGs did you use and what Champion did you replace them with?
D.

[tooseevee]

Ditto 2
What NKGs did you use and what Champion did you replace them with?
D.

            Go down and read the "No Cold Kick Start" thread below. It's all there in mind-numbing detail 

[Dodd]

            Go down and read the "No Cold Kick Start" thread below. It's all there in mind-numbing detail 

Interesting stuff 2.
My idling was similar to Micks (Re: The No-Cold-Kick-Start Problem-thread) 'cept I'd get a slight stumble, sort of brrr brrr brrr drrr. I've always use NGKs so, like Mick after reading your posts, I was Champion curious.
Replacing the B8ES with a N2C, I use  the black NGK cap, I tried to start her. Press press press kick kick kick. Nothing. Bugger what have I done.
Then, after deciding to put the cap back on (Wife distraction whilst putting new plug in,,,Honest Guv) she started straight off.
Did a 20 mile "town and a bit of a blast" run with no dramas at all. In fact she seemed to run better than she had for a while. 
When I got the bike she was using a B9ES. I changed carb from stock to TM32 and with Tom's help dialled it in pretty sweetly. During this Tom recommended switching to the 8 and now I wonder whether to stick with the N2C, if it ain't broke!, or to use the 8 equivalent.
And idling is pretty damn sharp too.
D.

[Adrian II]

If I understand my heat ranges correctly N2C is quite a cold plug, it might not get hot enough to burn off any soot after a while. If that happens try an N3C, my AVL hybrid seems quite happy with one of those.

A.

[tooseevee]

Interesting stuff 2.
My idling was similar to Micks (Re: The No-Cold-Kick-Start Problem-thread) 'cept I'd get a slight stumble, sort of brrr brrr brrr drrr. I've always use NGKs so, like Mick after reading your posts, I was Champion curious.
Replacing the B8ES with a N2C, I use  the black NGK cap, I tried to start her. Press press press kick kick kick. Nothing. Bugger what have I done.
Then, after deciding to put the cap back on (Wife distraction whilst putting new plug in,,,Honest Guv) she started straight off.
Did a 20 mile "town and a bit of a blast" run with no dramas at all. In fact she seemed to run better than she had for a while. 
When I got the bike she was using a B9ES. I changed carb from stock to TM31 and with Tom's help dialled it in pretty sweetly. During this Tom recommended switching to the 8 and now I wonder whether to stick with the N2C, if it ain't broke!, or to use the 8 equivalent.
And idling is pretty damn sharp too.
D.

          I'm glad you had good luck (well, at least you didn't have Bad luck) with the Champion plug.

           Yes. I, too, want to try one number hotter just to see. The N2C insulator (although an "OK" color) is a little too dark brown to me after so few miles so I just want to see what difference there might be with one heat range hotter. But, like yours, it runs really really well. Well Hell - it runs fantastik well!!

            I only do this rarely, but mine will idle down to about a thump a second, but I don't do it for long. I think I like about 950 to a 1,000 although I don't have a tach. I guess in India, the fewer thumps per minute, the better.  No good for engine 

[Adrian II]

The first thing I noticed with a set of borrowed "S" cams (courtesy of Bullet Whisperer) in my Electra-X some years ago was how well the thing idled, worthy of an old stationary engine. This was absolutely not the reason for fitting them, of course... 

A.

[Dodd]

The first thing I noticed with a set of borrowed "S" cams (courtesy of Bullet Whisperer) in my Electra-X some years ago was how well the thing idled, worthy of an old stationary engine. This was absolutely not the reason for fitting them, of course... 

A.

Those "S" cams appear to be the holy grail of the Electra X.
Shame they are rarer than an Essex virgin.
But if anyone is interested, maybe we can get enough together to make it worthwhile for BW
to manufacture a batch.
BTW A, what gap did you use for the N3C?
D.

[Adrian II]

Hitchcocks' sell used sets from time to time. They were the standard touring cam for late 50's and early 60's Redditch Bullets (nothing special in themselves) so they are still about.

The late stock iron barrel Indian Bullet cams are similar and our Indian friends have used them to good effect in AVL engines, though they are not QUITE as good. If you're timing them on the dots there are also contact issues with the inlet valve and piston crown, which will need a small pocket cutting in to provide clearance. It doesn't help that on all the Electra-X heads I have seen the valve seats sit about 1mm proud of the combustion chamber, nothing your local engine shop can't put right, but it's another little niggle to cope with.

Someone in the UK also used a set of Henry Price's "R" cams quite successfully, there were some dyno print outs on the MBR forum a while ago.

With declining interest in the Electra-X/AVL models it may be difficult to get enough interest for another batch of "S" cams to be made up, B.W. can confrm, but I think 6 sets are the minimum order, and based on what they cost a few years back they won't be cheap.

I didn't re-set the N3C gap, I just fitted it straight out of the box, the BT-H mag seems happy with it as is (non-suppressed plug cap used on my bike). 0.025" electrode gap is usual for plugs on coil ignition systems.

A.