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Author Topic: Wiring question  (Read 5271 times)

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grumbern

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on: February 05, 2017, 05:13:49 am
Hi there,
does anyone have an original wiring harness or pictures of it, or any information, how it was done for a Chief, Super Meteor, Constellation etc.? I mean, how does it look like? I know how to wire it, but not how it was done (lenths, layout etc.).
Hope someone can help me!
Andreas


High On Octane

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Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 09:40:24 am
I ended up converting to 12 volt and made my own custom harness from scratch.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


grumbern

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Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 12:08:10 pm
Well, that would of cousre be much easier and cheaper, considdering smaller cable diametre and lower pricees for lightbulbs, but it wouldn't be like original, would it? ;)

You do not possibly have any info about the original wiring of the Chief, or pictures showing just anything?! I don't even know where the connectors would belong, so any info is appreciated.
Andreas


High On Octane

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Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 08:14:11 pm
I'll have to browse my computer files.  I might, but not entirely sure.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


grumbern

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Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 02:32:53 am
That'd be awsome!


High On Octane

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Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 08:15:59 am
I thought I had a pic of the old twin wiring harness, but turns out it was for a newer Bullet.  Sorry.
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grumbern

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Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 02:21:00 pm
Darn! But thanks anyway for looking!

Maybe someone else here has some of the needed info? *nagnagnag* ;)


Adrian II

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Reply #7 on: March 01, 2017, 11:09:10 am
There ARE other owners of RE twins on this forum... Come on, guys!

A.
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grumbern

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Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 05:48:44 am
I must say, this is not only frustrating, but just sad.
You can't tell me, there's nobody on this board, with an original RE wiring harness in use or in stock!
I know the Chief is exotic, but there are other models that should have similar wiring, or offer at least some hints on how to do it!

Im offering a newly made, braided harness to the one who gives the needed advice, as soon as my braiding machine works. Maybe that will help...
Andreas


Adrian II

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Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 09:45:06 pm
I have a theory. Ahem.

You will get fed up with waiting, and as soon as your braiding machine is working to your satisfaction, you will simply set out all the electrical components in their logical position and wire your own loom from scratch, it will look authentic and perform faultlessly.

Within three weeks someone on ebay will suddenly list a new old stock Chief loom. You will buy this and find yours is identical apart from the section to the stop/tail lamp, the original being 1/2" shorter...

There is a sort of precedent for this, on a slightly bigger scale. When steam locomotive preservation in the UK wasn't so technically advanced as it is now, a group of enthusiasts decided to go for mission impossible and buy and restore a three cylinder express passenger locomotive from the scrapyard. This was 71000 Duke of Gloucester, the first in what would have been a whole class of locomotives, but with the end of steam traction already in sight in the 1950s British Railways only built the one example. Rather small by American standards, but hey...



By the time it reached the scrapyard (after a rather short service life) both the outside cylinders had been removed. One had simply been sent for scrap and was long gone, the other still existed but had been cut in half and put on display in the Science Museum in London. This meant a new set of cylinders had to be cast as there were no spares (ever!), and with the unusual Caprotti valve gear no other cylinders from other surviving locomotives could be used.

The next step would have been to copy the original cylinder drawings from the old British Railways technical records held by the National Railway Museum in York, but the NRM were unable to find them.

The only choice was to get access to the remaining half cylinder in the Science museum and try and put together a set of drawings by carefully measuring what was left, as well as examination of the only other surviving Caprotti-geared engine in the UK, which had similar but smaller cylinders. With only incomplete or smaller parts to work from there had to be some educated guess work in the absence of any pyhsical reference. Finally they were satisfied and had a set of drawings to send to the foundry. Some time later the original drawings were actually located and lent to the enthusiast group, who were delighted to discover that the drawings were identical, apart form one section of casting which was ⅛" (3.175mm) thicker.

Did the loco run again? Yes, rather well, as it happens.  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKC_duEEd9E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4Lgv7RopnY

A.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 10:04:45 pm by Adrian II »
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


grumbern

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Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 03:49:26 am
Adrian, you are probably right, some Info at least would be nice from time to time.
And now I have to look up, what a Caprotti valve gear is ;)


Arizoni

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Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 05:11:02 pm
The sounds that 3 cylinder engine makes are really neat!

For those not in to "steam", because the cylinders produce power on both the forward and rearward stroke, having 3 cylinders is similar to having a 6 cylinder gasoline engine.  That's why 71000 sounds like it is running so fast as it passes by.

I might mention, 71000's, 4-6-2 wheel arrangement in America would have been called a "Pacific".

The Pacific's were some of the fastest, most popular passenger locomotives of the day with the 6 drivers ranging from 67" to 80" in diameter. (1702-2032 mm)

Most of the American Pacific's were 2 cylinder with some using 3 cylinders.  Others used a 4 cylinder compound system with 2 high pressure and 2 low pressure cylinders.
Although they had more cylinders than the 3 cylinder locomotives they sounded like a 2 cylinder engine.
After the high pressure steam was used in the high pressure cylinder it was fed directly into the low pressure cylinder before exiting up the stack.
This resulted in two "choofs" per each full rotation of the drivers.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 05:20:32 pm by Arizoni »
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


Adrian II

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Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 05:48:59 pm
The Pacific, Atlantic, Mogul, etc, designation for steam wheel arrangements were used here too.

71000 was an 8P classification, the most powerful for express passenger use on British Railways. Compared with Pacifics, eight-coupled passenger engines were quite rare in the UK and none survived the end of steam. (2-8-0s were quite common on freight on some lines, we also had some USATC S160s shipped over during WW2 which were sent on to Europe after D-Day, there are a couple of preserved examples running over here.)

OK, not a problem with the missing Mikados, let's have a new-build one!

https://www.p2steam.com/

These guys are serious, they've already built a highly successful replica LNER A1 Pacific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDlqHuEE50g

While we've been playing trains Grumbern has probably re-wired his Chief...  ;D

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


mattsz

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Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 06:37:17 pm
Now that's a thread hijack!  8)


Adrian II

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Reply #14 on: March 14, 2017, 08:22:54 pm
Sometimes off-topic is the only way, but I did at least sort of acknowledge the orignal subject!

Now if someone ACTUALLY HAS the information Grumbern requested, I will gladly shut up.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


mattsz

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Reply #15 on: March 14, 2017, 08:49:35 pm
Sometimes off-topic is the only way, but I did at least sort of acknowledge the orignal subject!

Now if someone ACTUALLY HAS the information Grumbern requested, I will gladly shut up.

Hey, I have no complaints!  Gotta fill the awkward silence while we wait...  ;)


Adrian II

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Reply #16 on: March 15, 2017, 12:32:48 pm
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


mattsz

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Reply #17 on: March 16, 2017, 07:10:54 am
Silly question, perhaps, but... grumbern, you did ask about this in other places besides this forum, didn't you?


grumbern

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Reply #18 on: March 16, 2017, 02:45:48 pm
Yes, I did. Asked  at HMC, too, but without any luck.
Working on the braider while waiting ;)
Andreas


grumbern

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Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 03:38:50 pm
Something to fill the silence:



















Otto_Ing

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Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 03:43:15 pm
Cool! But what is it going to do?


portisheadric

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Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 06:13:29 pm
produce kimber cable ;)
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grumbern

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Reply #22 on: March 23, 2017, 03:40:10 am
Not quite! but instead of writing a novel, I'll show you a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDx5mz27zmQ


mattsz

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Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 04:38:24 am
Holy crap!  And I'm pretty pleased with myself being able to make my own toast...


Otto_Ing

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Reply #24 on: March 23, 2017, 04:54:59 am
Coooool! When can I send you my GT harness?  ;)


mattsz

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Reply #25 on: March 24, 2017, 06:10:56 am
Grumbern - if this works, I see a new side business in your future...


grumbern

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Reply #26 on: March 26, 2017, 04:16:53 am
Well, IF it works as good as I think, I will probably do this for others, too. It would be a shame to have a piece of machinery like this standing around for just 2 or 3 harnesses ;)

I machined the half-axles for the gears to sit on and countersunk (right phrase? :o ) the top plates used as guides. The bearings are clamped between these axles and mounted to the baseplate using two bolts:






Losely mounted:




Now I have to make the 22 distance pieces to assemble the top plates (inner and outer) and then work on the drive gear.
Andreas


ERC

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Reply #27 on: March 27, 2017, 10:59:49 am
I don't understand why you bothered to go to all this to get some braiding. They sell the antique type of braiding in all sizes for this online. I've got rolls of this in the shop.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.


grumbern

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Reply #28 on: March 27, 2017, 03:06:10 pm
Because of technical curiosity 8)


High On Octane

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Reply #29 on: April 05, 2017, 08:09:59 pm
That's awesome!  Wish I had the know how and resources to do something like that.  If it all works out for you, you could definitely make some money with it.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


grumbern

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Reply #30 on: April 08, 2017, 02:33:09 am
Well, if it all works as I hope it will, there's certainly potential for some braiding service. At least for small motorcycle harnesses ;)

Oran (see his post in this section) has sent me his two Chief-harnesses as a pattern to make new ones, so depending on their condition I hope this point is taken care of, too ;D . Still have to wait 'til they arrive.

I could make some progress, too.
As a distance piece in the middle and also for mounting the tube where the harness will go through, I made an Aluminium ring, with an M50x1 fine thread and bores for polting the top and base plates together.




The tube:




Three bolts and distances for the drive motor:




The motor is of a wire drive of a well known Austrian manufacturer of welding equippment. As they need to pull quite a bit in industrial use for years, it will most likely never die in this application ;D
A good 4Nm of torque and a 1:24 transmission should give the needed "bang":




The drive sprocket is mounted to the motor shaft by a hub with key:






Motor and sprocket mounted to the base plate:




As you can see, there's little space to the distances. Just to be sure I'll turn these down some 1/10mm:




From above:




And top plate set in place:



For now it's running (on a battery at only 12V instead auf the rated 42V). The pcb for foot pedal controll is in progress.
So long,
Andreas


grumbern

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Reply #31 on: April 17, 2017, 07:38:13 am
The first test was a success!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlrzuZpJ2N8


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Reply #32 on: April 17, 2017, 08:20:35 am
WOW, that looks great.
Did you get the wire harness?


Oranator


grumbern

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Reply #33 on: April 17, 2017, 09:02:08 am
Hi Oran,
nothing here yet :-[
But it's Easter, so there's always some more waiting to calculate.
Andreas


mattsz

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Reply #34 on: April 18, 2017, 06:01:45 am
Awesome!  Can't wait for the next installment...


grumbern

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Reply #35 on: April 30, 2017, 03:12:09 am
Well, now I am officially proud of myself! Made a small device, to be able to fabricate the bobbins, and so I did:












Knitty Kitty ;D





So how does it run? Like that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1QKoLUxjeQ

So long,
Andreas


mattsz

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Reply #36 on: April 30, 2017, 06:30:03 am
Absolutely awesome!  Hypnotic to watch, too...


High On Octane

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Reply #37 on: April 30, 2017, 09:55:06 am
Wow!  This keeps getting better and better.  You have some amazing fabrication skills my friend.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


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Reply #38 on: April 30, 2017, 10:00:28 am
Andreas,
Did the wire harnesses show up yet?

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grumbern

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Reply #39 on: April 30, 2017, 12:51:42 pm
Thanks!

@Oran: No, it did not! I've been on the phone with the customs departement and they transmitted me to the post office. They told me to wait at least another week. They claimed they had a lot of deliveries at the time and it may take 4-5 weeks until it is processed! Unbelievable in my opinion, but there's nothing more I can do but wait.

I could -by the way- reduce the current needed by half, just by adding some grease!
Rammed a knife in my arm to the bone today though (when cleaning the kitchen :P), so working will be much harder for some time, with one arm useless as a second butthole  >:(
Andreas


Adrian II

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Reply #40 on: April 30, 2017, 05:46:06 pm
Ouch!!!  :o

Speedy recovery.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


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Reply #41 on: May 10, 2017, 08:55:09 am

Andreas,
Did the wire harnesses show up yet?

Oranator


grumbern

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Reply #42 on: May 11, 2017, 03:39:38 am
No changes still. Believe me, these people are driving me crazy right now! I was writing mails, complaints, hanging on the phone and nobody has any valuable information. I'm pretty sure it got stuck or lost somewhere at the airport, as it's been 5 weeks now without any changes of status. I'd send you all the mails an letters I received, but I guess It wouldn't do any good, as it's all in German. ???

My arm is good again btw.
Andreas


grumbern

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Reply #43 on: May 11, 2017, 04:35:17 am
I just called them again and they still tell me to wait. I made an inquiry and they told me it might take up to 8 weeks for the results!!!
Believe me, this is a crying shame and definetely no fun >:(
If it was somewhere in Africa, but here?! Just rediculous!

Andreas


Adrian II

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Reply #44 on: May 12, 2017, 03:16:57 pm
I wonder if there's something going on with Deutsche Post. I sent a set of Redditch "S" cams from the UK to someone in the USA a couple of weeks ago, posted Thurday and arrived the following Tuesday, alles in Ordnung. The guy mentioned that he had a German exchange student staying with him and his wife, and the student's mother sent him a pacrel from Germany. It took weeks to arrive and when it did the parcel looked as though it had been run over.

Hope it your loom surfaces soon, and in good condition.

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


grumbern

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Reply #45 on: May 12, 2017, 03:34:26 pm
I think it's because it was sent as a letter. I never had that kind of trouble with "propper" packages. Bought a brake plate from the states last week and picked it up this monday. Also bought from the UK this week and it arrived two days (!!!) later.
Makes me worry even more.
Andreas


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Reply #46 on: May 19, 2017, 11:11:19 am
any updates?

Oranator


grumbern

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Reply #47 on: May 19, 2017, 01:32:30 pm
Still nothing!

Maybe try something at USPS, I can't imagine anything I can do anymore. Checking the status about three times a day and it p***es me off every time >:(
Andreas


grumbern

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Reply #48 on: May 22, 2017, 12:01:45 pm
Guys, you won't believe it! Oran's package arrived today, containing the wiring harnesses!
That means I can start figuring out where everything belongs, draw a schematic and measure everything for a complete rebuild ;D
Thanks Oran!

Andreas

P.S.: The package says customs departement of Hamburg. It went to Frankfurt by plane, I am only one hour away from Frankfurt and they send it to Hamburg (500km away) for  processing, just to send it back halfway through Germany, and nobody knows anything about it?! I don't care anymore, it's arrived...


Adrian II

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Reply #49 on: May 22, 2017, 03:59:49 pm
Hallelujah! (HOW long have you been waiting?)

Let the wiring loom reverse engineering begin...

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


mattsz

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Reply #50 on: May 22, 2017, 04:39:58 pm
Alright, that's great news!

(Let's see now, refresh my popcorn, get comfortable... )


grumbern

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Reply #51 on: May 23, 2017, 02:37:52 am
Waiting since the 4th of April, when Oran send it on its way!

I'll see what I can do. One is definetly of a 58 Chief, the other one I have to figure out.
There's also some updates on the braider (electronics, stand, housing) that I will be able to send maybe tomorrow.
Andreas


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Reply #52 on: May 23, 2017, 02:40:44 am
Waiting since the 4th of April, when Oran send it on its way!

I'll see what I can do. One is definetly of a 58 Chief, the other one I have to figure out.
There's also some updates on the braider (electronics, stand, housing) that I will be able to send maybe tomorrow.
Andreas

My experience with US mail is that about 4-5 weeks is normal. In your case, you know - lot of wires - it may be suspicious, if oran would have packed a ticking clock to it...than...  ;D


grumbern

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Reply #53 on: May 25, 2017, 03:49:24 am
Took me a little longer, but here are some updates on the braider.
The electrics are installed and working. From left to right you can see the contactor relais, the pwm-pbc that I made and the transformer, providing about 60V. The voltage is rectified and regulated by the pcb and the relais ensures that you have to switch on the machine again, once the power is gone, or emergency stop engaged:




The controll panel. It has two switches. The upper for mains, the lower for switching from cw to ccw rotation, the green button for turning on the machine and an emergency stop button, that shuts off all power to the contactor relais and transformer. If the power is switched on but relais not engaged, the red light is lit, with the machine turned on the green light is lit and red one off:




The turning speed is controlled by a foot pedal, that belongs to my TIG-welder. It has a switch and potentiometer, first one switching a relais on the pcb allowing current to flow to the motor, second one controlling the pulse width provided by the circuit and thus the speed of the motor:




As you can see, the braider has it's own "feet" by now, but it still lacks the full housing and of course the bobbins need to be finished.
So long,
Andreas
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:55:50 am by grumbern »


grumbern

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Reply #54 on: February 11, 2018, 04:48:48 am
Not much happened in this thread, but even more at my place. So here's a bit bigger update of the current state of the braider and what happened until now:

The machine now has a housing, electrics are done and the bobbins were in the making.

For the yarn guides I used 2.8mm stainless spokes, with an M3 tap at the end, also they are very rigid and durable. To give all of them the same bend, I made a small tool for that:








Electrics:




Marking the slides for drilling:




Pieces...




Roughly bent guides:




All spindles installed:




One bobbin carrier ready, yet 15 to go ;)




For mounting the funnel on the top, I simply turned a conical recess in the tube and pushed the funnel over it, where it snapped. It is sitting so firmly that no more fixation was necessary:








Mounted to the machine:




All the yarn guides finished:




The bobbin carriers where made of a turned Aluminium pice with a stainless hollow axle pressed in. The bobbins are moving free on it and located by a spring. I hope to achieve a basic tension on the yarn, while the distance to the funnel changes during operation. If it really works, I do not know ;)














And for the finish, a short video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwTONLfLMSY&lc=z23pdlujhxqugpbusacdp43530a1vrg50xqodhxtmw5w03c010c


So long,
Andreas
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 07:05:18 am by grumbern »


heloego

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Reply #55 on: February 11, 2018, 06:11:25 am
 :o
Beautiful!
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


High On Octane

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Reply #56 on: February 11, 2018, 11:35:10 am
That came out very nice.  Can't wait to see it in action braiding some wires.
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


mattsz

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Reply #57 on: February 11, 2018, 06:30:24 pm
Fantastic!  But can you please hurry?  I'm running out of popcorn...


grumbern

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Reply #58 on: August 11, 2018, 09:46:18 am
Yeeees it braids! It was a long way, but it works! The winding machine worked as well and the first braid is made. Now it's up for propper tuning and testing. I'll give you the details, of course! :D

Just some pictures for now:











So long,
Andreas


mattsz

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Reply #59 on: August 11, 2018, 11:24:59 am
You are a madman!  In a good way, of course...


High On Octane

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Reply #60 on: August 11, 2018, 01:44:20 pm
Awesome work!  I wish I lived near you.  😉
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


heloego

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Reply #61 on: August 11, 2018, 05:46:09 pm
Impressive! So glad it's a success!  8)
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


grumbern

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Reply #62 on: August 12, 2018, 05:55:04 am
Thank you guys, here's a video including a full description of the machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOV9D3Cczs0


grumbern

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Reply #63 on: August 12, 2018, 07:25:52 am
Oh man, I just ran a second test with a "fake" harness made from rope - and it worked!
Absolutely no problems, very nice finish an nearly effortless!  8)

I'm still shaking and can't believe it ;D Now I have to calm down and then braid my wiring harness. This is so great, but see for yourseves:










High On Octane

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Reply #64 on: August 12, 2018, 08:26:19 am
That's so cool!  Certainly looks like Grade A professional results to me!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


Adrian II

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Reply #65 on: August 12, 2018, 12:58:03 pm
Oh, that's excellent!

A.
Grumpy Brit still seeking 500 AVL Bullet perfection! Will let you know if I get anywhere near...


heloego

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Reply #66 on: August 13, 2018, 06:38:15 am
WOW! 8)
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


grumbern

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Reply #67 on: August 13, 2018, 01:25:57 pm
The Chief's harness is done, too! Here are some detail pictures:

















As you can see, there's only one open end that I taped with cloth tape and it disappears under the plastic piping that protects the harness in the steering head area from wear. All the other ends were turned inwards before braiding and are therefor "closed".

Video is still rendering...
So long,
Andreas


grumbern

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Reply #68 on: August 13, 2018, 03:17:44 pm


Adrian II

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Reply #69 on: August 13, 2018, 05:34:28 pm
 :o 8) ;D

A.
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Arizoni

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Reply #70 on: August 14, 2018, 11:16:59 am
Damned amazing!!
The braded harness looks as good as one that was professionally done. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary


oTTo

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Reply #71 on: August 14, 2018, 11:28:32 am
Damned amazing!!
The braded harness looks as good as one that was professionally done. :)

+1


ace.cafe

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Reply #72 on: August 14, 2018, 03:28:21 pm
We have some very good talent on this forum!
Well done.


High On Octane

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Reply #73 on: August 14, 2018, 04:48:17 pm
Agreed!  That harness looks mint!
2001 Harley Davidson Road King


heloego

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Reply #74 on: August 15, 2018, 07:23:07 am
"As good as" ?  :o
Absolutely not! It looks a hell of a LOT better than OEM!  ;D
'18 Bonneville T-100, Blue/White
'12 C5 Classic
'06 Electra X AVL w/32mm Mikuni and Gold Star system.


RE_Chief

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Reply #75 on: August 20, 2018, 07:06:31 am
Absolutely beautiful work Andreas, a piece of art!
Regards Charles
1955 Indian Tomahawk 500 twin
1958 Indian Chief 700 twin (SMPB 9002 the 2nd ever made)
1960 Indian Chief 700 twin
1964 Interceptor Mk1 750 twin
1967 Interceptor Mk1A 750 twin
1994 Bullet Deluxe 570 long stroke single