[DanB]

Hi Chuck,

I don't have any good advice really and keep wondering why all the lights are blown?  Including three LEDS.  Is your R&R OK?

Outside of that,  I'm following with interest. 

[Superchuck]

Thanks Dan, 

I too am a bit perplexed at the 'blown' lights.  Tomorrow I plan to tear apart my rear light wiring and see if it's truly the lights.  It could also just be fried wiring between the connector plug and bulbs.  I hand wired all that stuff back there, and 90% of the time it's user error, right? 

Do you know how to check the R/R?  I was working under the assumption that it was ok, since my battery was full and both fuses were intact.  But I'd rather be safe than sorry.  If the bulbs are blown, not the wiring, I'd rather fix the culprit than just throw all that time and money into doomed replacement LED's.

If the timing issues pop up again tomorrow I still lean towards it being the TCI's fault.  Alternatively I read another post where a loose wire was causing rapid fire intermittent shorts, which caused jerky ignition.  In that case the TCI wasn't at fault, but the TCI was working overtime to try and puzzle out the mixed messages it was getting from the intermittent wire. 

I prefer a tangible mechanical fix to electrical gremlins, but you play the hand you're dealt.

Chuck

[Arizoni]

The only easy way to check the RR that I know of is to hook a volt meter up to the battery and start the engine.

At an idle the battery voltage will be slightly better than it was without the engine running.  (RE's have a rather weak alternator).

At an increased engine speed, something like when your riding at 20 mph, the voltage should rise to about 14 volts.
Revving the engine higher should raise the voltage to about 14.5.  It should never go higher than about 14.8 even with the engine running very fast.

If it meets these voltages, the RR is doing its job.

If the voltage continues to climb up above 15 volts, it is not regulating the voltage correctly and could lead to burned out bulbs and other bad things with any solid state devices that might be installed.

As for the Indian made bulbs, I've had real poor luck with them.  They (and the Indian made fuses) seem to burn out whenever they want to, for no apparent reason.

(More than one of my Indian made glass fuses with the metal ends just quit conducting electricity.  They looked fine.  No blown wire or anything.  They just wouldn't conduct electricity.)

[Superchuck]

Arizoni,

Thanks very much for that walkthrough... I will definitely test that next time I get it running.

Which brings me to my next point....   LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!  (or at least we're zeroing in on one)

The gods of motorcycle maintenance were with me today.  I rode around for about 5 minutes, and it died at the top of a hill.  Wasn't even warmed up yet.  Pulser impedance normal (200 ohms +/-), 12.3 volts was getting to the ignition coil via the brown wire, ignition coil primary and secondary impedance was as stated in my previous tests.  These readings are slightly higher than the Factory Manual, but only by a few ohms.  I wonder if my coil is also slowly on its way out. 

Stator impedance was normal (3 yellow wires about 1 ohm impedance between each, in all combinations).  So nothing was the obvious culprit.  Buttoned it back up, and it started second kick.  More justification for my 'intermittent short in wiring' theory.

Rode for fifteen more minutes, and it died at the top of a hill again.  This time it was fully warmed up.  I noticed that the kickstart pedal was tighter than usual (of course I generally only kickstart when cold).  I checked the tappets to make sure it wasn't an over-tight pushrod that was preventing engine compression.  Both pushrods were fine, not too tight.

Got out the trusty multimeter.  All impedances were identical to before.  The only difference this time is that I was only getting between 2 and 3 volts at the brown wire to the ignition coil (should be about 12).  That same wire splits off to also power the TCI, so I checked it there as well.  Also 2-3 volts.  I opened up the headlight casque and with the ignition switch off, there was 11ish volts running into the ignition switch from the battery, which also matched the battery's current voltage at the poles. 

Not realizing I could have just poked my multimeter in the 'back' of that multi-wire plug to check voltage coming out of the ignition switch, I also opened up the right-hand control switch module.  It read 2-3 volts at each of those wires as well.  When it occurred to me to poke the ignition switch in the back, it read the same there too.

I couldn't fire the enfield back up, so I just rolled down the hill for the 8 blocks home.  Motorcycle gods be praised for my good fortune of topographic elevation.

I also diagnosed my alleged 'top end clatter'.  One of the rear fuel-tank mounting brackets had rusted and broken off at the weld.  The metal tab was still attached to the engine mount and frame, and it was violently knocking against the fuel tank at higher RPM's.  Removed the tab, and no more 'knock'.  Phew! 

So back to the electricals, my first instinct was:  It's the ignition switch!  But on second thought, doesn't the ignition switch just open up the battery circuit to the rest of the bike, which means it could be literally anything in my harness that's creating this voltage drop? 

I again tested the battery at the poles, and it was around 13 volts with the key off.  I turned the key and it dropped down to 3 volts.  NOTE:  I just did this test again just now (after the bike has sat for about an hour), and the voltage is now showing 4 volts with the key on. 

Am I now stuck going through every little wire to find the component or connector that's causing the voltage drop?

Thanks in advance-  I feel like I'm getting close!

Chuck

[Arizoni]

If I'm reading this right, your battery voltage at its output terminals drops from over 12 volts to 3 or 4 with the ignition switch on?

If so, it indicates there is an internal break in the battery between two or more cells.

When this happens, the electrolyte can carry the full voltage thru the break but when more current is needed the electrolyte can't handle the  power so the battery output drops from 12 volts to some really low amount.

If I am wrong, with the switch still connected to the power supply and with the switch turned on, check the power supply wire that feeds the ignition switch.
 If the voltage to ground is at 3 volts the problem is between the switch and the battery.

If this supply wire is showing a full 12 volts while the switch is on but the switch output is 3 volts, the switch is defective.

[Superchuck]

Thanks Arizoni, yes you read that right...

The voltage at the battery terminals drops to 3 volts when the ignition switch is on.

In case it matters, this is the battery I have installed:  https://www.amazon.com/TMS-Ut4b-bs-Yt4b-bs-Motorcycle-Battery/dp/B0053TR7B8

It's a small, 2.4 AH AGM battery.  I only kickstart and it's worked great for years, never needing recharged or replaced (until now).

The voltage drop is all throughout the bike, before and after the ignition switch.

But does it make sense that this battery voltage drop issue would be intermittent? 

If so, and if AGM batteries are susceptible to this failure you stated that means problem solved!

[REpozer]

Arozoni is the man.
 
Chuck, if need be , I can take ohm reading on my AVL .

[Superchuck]

Thanks REPozer,

If my bike works again then I'm not too worried about it... the ignition coil is still stock, and it's about 7 years old now.  It doesn't sound unrealistic that it might need to be replaced soon.

Also, FYI I was testing its secondary impedance at the plug cap.  I noticed that the photo in the factory manual shows them testing it at the lead with plug cap removed.  Since we have a resistor cap as stated above, maybe that's where the extra couple of ohms are coming from?

A new battery is on order, and will be delivered Friday!  I also noticed during my troubleshooting that one of my LED red running lights was lit, but very dimly.  I'm hoping that my alleged 'blown lighting' issue is just due to the battery voltage drop.

Fingers crossed, and I'll let you know the verdict.

Thanks again to everyone for all the great advice!

Chuck

[Superchuck]

So the new battery came!  Popped it in, and in my quick jaunt around town it seems to be running well!

Downside is, all my lights are still blown or shorted.  Unfortunately I don't have time to troubleshoot them now, so the bike still sits for the time being.

Since these days it's dark by the time I'm home from work I won't really be able to ride any distance until this weekend.  I feel like the old battery would have crapped out in the amount of time I rode today, but I'm still not 100% trusting it until a more rigorous test ride.

Fingers crossed I can get the lights sorted swiftly and cheaply, and thanks again to everyone for your help and advice along the way!

Chuck

[Superchuck]

So I'm finally getting a chance to troubleshoot my lights/wiring today.

A few weeks ago I replaced the blown headlight bulb.  Unless the new one has mysteriously blown for some reason in my two test rides, I believe it should be working... but it isn't.

Strange thing:  The 3 leads to the headlight are showing connection to ground, and the 'hot' wire is showing just over 12v.  Strangely, my multimeter is showing a trickle voltage of 5-20 mV on the non-active positive lead (ie: if I have the high-beam on, the low beam is showing this trickle of millivolts).  Ignition is on, but bike is not running.

Is this just a trick of the multimeter?  Is this normal?  Or does this indicate a switch or wiring crossover somewhere upstream of the headlight?

Thanks in advance!  These electrical gremlins are killing me.   

[Arizoni]

Have you have checked the new headlight to see if the high and low beam filaments are burned out?  If they are, there must be a voltage surge when the engine is running.
A faulty regulator/rectifier could do that.

You probably already know but the amber wire is the ground wire.
The green is the low beam and the blue is the high beam. 
The gray is the power for the headlight "parking light bulb" if it has one.

The wiring is very simple and direct.  The green wire runs to one terminal in the switch and the blue runs to another.  The power comes in to a movable blade that either contacts one or the other contacts.  It can't power both of them at the same time even a little and neither one of them should show a grounded condition unless they are attached to the bulb.
The only thing I can think of that would power the blue or green wire with 5-20 mv would be some dirt in the switch that is conducting a little bit of power from the "on" terminal to the "off" terminal in the switch.

Some multi-meters do show readings when they shouldn't.
To test this, just connect one probe to the other with the meter set to read DC voltage.
If it shows 5-20 mv, you've found the culprit.

[Adrian II]

The only thing I can think of that would power the blue or green wire with 5-20 mv would be some dirt in the switch that is conducting a little bit of power from the "on" terminal to the "off" terminal in the switch.

Not sure if this applies with this particular design of switch, but friction and wear of the switch contacts can leave a build up of copper dust(?) smeared across the supposedly insulating plastic gap on earlier switches, particularly if the finish isn't too smooth.

I recently bought a handlebar indicator/horn/dip switch from somewhere East of Suez and had to take it apart to work out a wiring diagram for it. Where I'd idly flicked the dip switch a few times it was already starting to leave a copper build-up agross the insulation. The fix (I hope) was to rub down the little bit of plastic with the two copper contacts with 800 and 1500 grade wet and dry and polish afterwards.

A.

[Superchuck]

Arizoni and Adrian,

Thanks so much for the pointers... sorry for the late reply.  It's been a bit busy around these parts with life in general and doing the whole thanksgiving thing. 

I haven't had a chance to mess with my wiring yet, but I did remove from the bike the rear lights and their rear portion of the wiring harness.  I'll undo my rat's nest in there and try to test by powering each LED cluster direct from the battery terminal.

As for the headlight... Good idea about grounding the multimeter to itself to get a baseline.  I didn't think of that.  Last time I took apart the right-hand light switch it had an empty cocoonlike web inside.  It seems Royal Enfield makes riders into mechanics, and larvae into mature insects.  I tried to clean off the webbing as well as I could, and I did notice that it wasn't exactly 'clean' inside there in general. 

It's hard to tell if the filament is burnt, but I'll pick up a new spare bulb anyway to test it.  It's cheap insurance, and good to have on hand.

Thanks very much again, and I'll report back with my findings.  Unfortunately Maryland has decided it's winter now, so that makes motorcycle projects a little less urgent.  Fingers crossed!

Chuck

[Superchuck]

Happy 2017 folks,

After the holidays calmed down a bit I was able to troubleshoot my lighting 'short'.  Turns out that my rear LED clusters are fried. 

I cut the lights out of my rat's nest to test them direct on the battery.  The running lights and brake lights are blown (same red LED's, dual intensity).   Also, one of my license plate LED's is blown, while the other is fine.  That wire must have fried before it was able to get the voltage the whole way out to the LED. 

I'm assuming this must be a faulty rectifier/regulator.  My turn signals are OK, so they must not have been on during whatever surge/spike happened.

I didn't pull the headlight since it was freezing outside (rear lights were already taken off and sitting on my basement work bench).  If these LED's are fried, I imagine my H4 halogen fell victim as well to the assumed malfunctioning R/R. 

Arizoni posted back on November 5th of this thread, a walkthru on how to test for a faulty R/R.  However I am worried about subjecting my new battery to this test.  If it is a  faulty R/R, can't that damage my new battery?  Or would it take a long period of time to do so? 

Is there anything else that could have fried my lights, or should I just go ahead and replace the R/R?  I feel like confirming the culprit is a good thing, but I don't want to risk my new battery for no reason.

Any advice?

Thanks!  Can't wait to get this thing running.  Here in Maryland we get unseasonably warm days in any month of the year, and I don't want to miss a chance to ride!

Chuck

[Arizoni]

IMO, the voltage output of a Royal Enfield alternator is too low to damage a battery while the engine is at a idle speed or slightly above it, even if the RR is defective.

You should be able to hook up your multi-meter to the battery before starting the engine and keep an eye on the voltage.

Slowly increase the engine speed, keeping an eye on the voltage.
If it climbs above 15-17 volts I would suspect the regulator as being the problem.
If the voltage doesn't climb above 15 volts as the engine gets up to some fairly high speeds, the regulator is doing its job.

As for the fried LED's, it is possible they were defective and blew out on their own.
I know I've seen several LED's just stop working on their own for no apparent reason.