Author Topic: What is the attitude of the Vintage world?  (Read 3886 times)

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Bath Bullet

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on: August 27, 2008, 02:41:31 pm
Just wondering, how the Indian made 'modern' Bullet stand in the Vintage world, is it accepted in the club and show circuits, or is it frowned upon by purist's who think that the only true Enfield is one that was built in England?
I think I will be alright with my local old bike club, they did a charity run earlier this year, and I was surprised that there was modern bikes, I think I spotted an Indian built Enfield too.
Best regards
Terry
BITING THE BULLET:  2001 500 CLASSIC living in Sunny Bat, Somerset
Also 2008 TRIUMPH BONNEVILLE 865 EFI


Merrill

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Reply #1 on: August 27, 2008, 03:18:24 pm
who really cares?!  I mean how strong are you, do you
define the machine or are you dependent on the machine
to make a statement on you behalf?
/
merrill


ace.cafe

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Reply #2 on: August 27, 2008, 04:16:10 pm
From my limited interaction with other "classic" Brit bike owners, they seem to accept the Indian-made Bullet just fine.
They do make some bones about it being a new made bike, so it isn't really as old as theirs, and they like to point that out. But, I haven't seen any "prejudice" against the newer Bullets from the folks that I've encountered. And some are genuinely happy that at least one old Brit bike survived this long in production.

I personally prefer the Indian-made Bullets, because they have been around longer, and there are more parts available for them, and they have had some real improvements over the original Redditch Bullets, over time. And also some downgrades, but not many.
I like the Indian-made Bullets best.
Home of the Fireball 535 !


Suitor_Stu

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Reply #3 on: August 27, 2008, 04:26:43 pm
As far as I'm aware the Royal Enfield Owners club of the UK recognises the indians as being equal to the old Redditch ones.  However, I really don't think that is entirely justified personally speaking.  I mean yeah they haven't changed much over the years from a design point of view (just really stick on stuff - eg catch can, turn signals etc) but would you feel right saying that it was in the same league as an original? 

I mean - as an example - you can buy a Vintage Replica Fender Strat which has been hand made with hand wound pickups to exactly match the original ones, which is painted with the same paint and laquer as the old ones were and you can even get then to 'age' the body so that it looks and feels the same as a 50 yr old one, but at the end of the day IS it the same as an original one?  I'd say no.  And I feel the same way about the Indian enfields too.  Don't get me wrong, I love my bike and all, but I just woudn't class it as 'vintage'.  'Vintage Technology' maybe, but not just flat 'Vintage'

Phew, that was long!

Stu


PhilJ

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Reply #4 on: August 27, 2008, 05:15:20 pm
For me, I'm glad the Indian model is here. Had it not been there would not have been a chance that all of us could have owned an original Redditch. And then had we all gotten a Redditch the parts availability would not have been near as good. I'm glad some people collect the originals so they will be around. For me, I'm not a collector. I've never had more than two bikes at a time and don't want more than that. The Indian gives us a chance to ride the old bikes without encountering as many breakdowns as we would have otherwise.

Phil


ace.cafe

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Reply #5 on: August 27, 2008, 05:21:11 pm
As far as I'm aware the Royal Enfield Owners club of the UK recognises the indians as being equal to the old Redditch ones.  However, I really don't think that is entirely justified personally speaking.  I mean yeah they haven't changed much over the years from a design point of view (just really stick on stuff - eg catch can, turn signals etc) but would you feel right saying that it was in the same league as an original? 

I mean - as an example - you can buy a Vintage Replica Fender Strat which has been hand made with hand wound pickups to exactly match the original ones, which is painted with the same paint and laquer as the old ones were and you can even get then to 'age' the body so that it looks and feels the same as a 50 yr old one, but at the end of the day IS it the same as an original one?  I'd say no.  And I feel the same way about the Indian enfields too.  Don't get me wrong, I love my bike and all, but I just woudn't class it as 'vintage'.  'Vintage Technology' maybe, but not just flat 'Vintage'

Phew, that was long!

Stu

I agree with this sentiment to an extent, because the newer Bullets are not as old as the Redditch Bullets. So, they could be termed "later vintage", because of the continuation of the same basic design and construction, but later date.
But, some of the early Indian-made Bullets are older than some of the later Redditch Bullets, and they would absolutely be "vintage".

Overall, I'd say that they are a "vintage bike" in heart, design, and construction, but not in age. 
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Bankerdanny

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Reply #6 on: August 27, 2008, 05:22:02 pm
The classic guys I have met seem to appreciate the Bullet for what it is. A modern made copy of the British original. in some ways the quality may be less than the original, but not in any way that counts.

I never had anybody say anything negative about it. That was one of the things that I first noticed after I bought it, everybody thought it was cool. Even the Harley guys, who can be somewhat standoffish seemed to really like it. I got thumbs up every where I rode.
Endeavor To Persevere

Current: '75 Honda CB550F, '76 Honda CB750F. Previous:  2007 Yamaha Vino 125, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000 Goldwing, '77 Honda CB550K, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500ES, '68 Suzuki K11, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175


Bath Bullet

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Reply #7 on: August 27, 2008, 05:28:23 pm
I tend to agree totally with PhilJ & Ace.cafe, I just wonder'ed what to expect when I turn up at any rallies and meets., not that I want to show, just as a spectator.
BTW Merril, I bought the bike for one reason only, because I like it, its not for ego, or any other reason, its because at this time it suits me!
Best regards
Terry
BITING THE BULLET:  2001 500 CLASSIC living in Sunny Bat, Somerset
Also 2008 TRIUMPH BONNEVILLE 865 EFI


Merrill

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Reply #8 on: August 27, 2008, 06:26:23 pm
That's good to know. You had me worried.
/
I pity the dudes, striving to be so
individualistic, yet they all wear the same
costumes when out riding.
/
I've always enjoyed the individual who rides
the bike that caught his/her eye.
/
Most likely they can be engaged in interesting
conversation.
/
glad you are you.
/
merrill


cyrusb

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Reply #9 on: August 27, 2008, 06:36:40 pm
I'd like to point out that Indian bullets are approved for vintage racing, that says something. Also, I have yet to see a redditch bullet that was actually bought here in the USA as a Royal Enfield. So given the supply(like none) these bikes are it.Period.
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LJRead

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Reply #10 on: August 27, 2008, 09:01:26 pm
It seems to me that there is a big difference between 'vintage' and 'vintage reproduction'.
Enfields have a continuity of production that starts from Britain and goes on to India, with British influence even in the early days of the Indian factory.  First it was an assembly plant in India, then parts were actually made there.

I am well familiar with both furniture reproduction and boat reproduction, and, in these, shortcuts are often made because the original skills just aren't there.  I talked with a furniture restorer from England who did work for Southby's.  Well, a hutch of some sort was sold as original, but when he dissembled it, he found that plywood was used, so it was a reproduction, though Southby's sold it as an original.  I asked the restorer if he informed the people who had bought it that it was a copy.  He said no, he was being paid by Southbys.  No, it definitely wasn't vintage furniture, but a rather modern reproduction.

In this regard, R E India didn't pull a rabbit out of a hat in producing the Enfield line - there is a continuous heritage, so, in my book, it is a true Enfield, and to that extent vintage.  Vintage does imply age, like vintage wine, so, when the later R Es get to old age, they will be true vintage, they will have aged.

Various Japanese companies make retro bikes that look like old Harleys or Indians, the Kawa w650 is a triumph look-alike, but all are of up to date technology. They are modern bikes with a vintage appeal.

Now the question arises about the UCE and no, I would say, it is not vintage any longer because of a severe break with tradition.  A bit like using plywood in an old appearing piece of furniture.  But this is arguable. On the other hand, the AVL is a continuation of the tradition. My bike still has the 4-speed transmission to prove it.


DonK

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Reply #11 on: August 27, 2008, 09:25:23 pm
I put an Indian badge on my tank and when I go to a show I clip this write up to one of my cables.



Very few if any even question it being a 1950's bike. I usually hear "nice job restoring that" I just smile and say "thanks"
What they don't know won't hurt em.




Chuck D

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Reply #12 on: August 27, 2008, 10:00:21 pm
I put an Indian badge on my tank and when I go to a show I clip this write up to one of my cables.



Very few if any even question it being a 1950's bike. I usually hear "nice job restoring that" I just smile and say "thanks"
What they don't know won't hurt em.



I get that comment alot also. But I feel queasy accepting praise for knowlege and skills I don't posses. I explain that it is in fact a new bike and give them as much of a rundown as the interval of a stoplight will allow. In any event it's not a sustainable fiction. There are so many dead giveaways (Minda controls, E start) that anyone who knows motorcycles would'nt be fooled for a moment. And as for the rest, who cares?
Ace "Fireball"#10 (Beefy the Bullet to her friends.)
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zuman

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Reply #13 on: August 27, 2008, 10:12:23 pm
I think there's a difference between a vintage design and a vintage specimen.  I  can respect a vintage design because it brings an honest, elemental, back-to-basics experience that can connect us with a different era.  But I respect a vintage specimen because it has a personal history and has survived multiple owners, accidents, rebuilds, and more, and I can still touch a piece of metal that was shaped by a craftsman of another era who is probably now gone from this world.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 10:31:32 pm by zuman »


Bankerdanny

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Reply #14 on: August 27, 2008, 10:27:41 pm
When I was a kid (6 I think) my father bought and restored one of the 250cc Indian's. It was my introduction to motorcycles.
Endeavor To Persevere

Current: '75 Honda CB550F, '76 Honda CB750F. Previous:  2007 Yamaha Vino 125, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000 Goldwing, '77 Honda CB550K, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500ES, '68 Suzuki K11, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175


Foggy_Auggie

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Reply #15 on: August 28, 2008, 01:07:03 am
The last time I got gas, a guy jumped out of a van and came quickly over to look at my Bullet.  He said "Ah, it's an Indian", and then took off into the mart.  I didn't have time to reply and he ignored the Royal Enfield lettering.

He was as old as me so I figured he didn't mean made in India.
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baird4444

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Reply #16 on: August 28, 2008, 07:59:50 am
Donk,  NICE BIKE!
     Mine sufers from those slight rust stain on the barrel as well. Wanna know what caused it??  Washing it b4 you put it to bed. I used to give mine a rinse every day b4 I put it to bed....      after I saw that rust, I decided I was wasting time washing when I could have been RIDING!!
                - Mike
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 08:06:19 am by baird4444 »
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Bath Bullet

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Reply #17 on: August 28, 2008, 08:13:22 am
I'm glad I started this thread, there has been some really interesting things come from it.
I look forward to getting my bike tomorrow, and I will update this thread with comments made to me.
Best regards
Terry
BITING THE BULLET:  2001 500 CLASSIC living in Sunny Bat, Somerset
Also 2008 TRIUMPH BONNEVILLE 865 EFI


chris-bartlett

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Reply #18 on: August 28, 2008, 05:59:22 pm
My buddy (has a newer Triumph) and I rode into downtown Raleigh last Saturday and stopped at a Krispy Kreme. This guy came running out and asked if he could take photos of my bike, "This is soo cool" he said. Then a guy walked up and said, "Wow, nice bike! I used to have a '39 Indian, wish I'd never gotten rid of it. What year's this?"

I took a chance.... "It's a '55."
The woman that was with him asked if I'd restored it. I said "No, it's a '55 that was built in 2003."

I'll probably stick with that response for now.


LJRead

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Reply #19 on: August 28, 2008, 06:55:15 pm
There is a newish Kawasaki 800 cc. Vulcan in town now, and my bike was parted next to it as we owners compared notes, then a tourist was out taking a photo of his and not mine - I guess that means mine has been superseded!

Oh well.

As far as rust on the cylinder goes, iron can look rusty for many years and the rust has no effect on it like it would steel.  But easy enough to wire brush, maybe treat it with ospho, and touch up with high temp paint.

I've been using paint from POR 15 <http://www.por15.com> which is extremely good paint (many types) for things like frame touchup, engines, etc.  I'm thinking of painting my aluminum AVL cyclinder with their Black Satin high temp. paint. just in keeping with the Classic look.