[Dave1]

Hi guys I need some advice, I will be building an performance engine with B.W.

But I have some questions.
I have a 2004 Bullet 65 500cc Trials 5 speed, which is electric start. The bottom end we are going to use in the new engine is an kick starter model.

What we want to know is our options? would I be able to put an electric start primary case with all the internals of the electric starter primary onto an kick starter engine, with the electric starter? Is this possible? Or is there a better option?

Do we need to tap new threads to mount the electric start inner primary case onto a kick starter bottom end? Either with or with out the electric starter?

Is there a difference between the engine sprocket from an electric start primary case or kick start primary case.

Is there a difference between alternator rotor spacers from an 500cc electric start engine and a 500cc kick starter engine?

Also will I be able to put a left shift 5 speed gearbox onto a kick starter only engine? Which originally had a 4 speed box?

I already now the rocker oil lines are different between electric start and kick start models.

[dginfw]

Realistically, most will tell you to delete the electric start. It is know to be a weak spot on the motor. Why? Well the engine had been around since the 1950s, then 50-some years later the factory decided to try to add an electric start to it...it was an okay attempt but the weak point is the 'sprag clutch' which acts as a one-way rotational clutch to keep the starter from crankshaft from turning the starter motor continuously. If the engine misfires or stalls out, the piston rushes up and encounters resistance from the compression and is forced backwards and quite hard. This reverse jolt can damage the sprag clutch requiring a pricey $$ outlay for a new part.  Some owners have had the sprag last many years, some only saw a few months. A well tuned, good running Bullet is easy to kickstart, making the electric start only add weight and cost. Ultimately the choice is yours.
Switching to a 5speed will be more difficult if you must have left-side shift. Later model (5sp) engine cases had a different engine case which allowed the shift shaft to go thru the case for left side shifting. Without these cases, you'd have to go UNDER the trans, which gives sloppy shifting. You could go for a 5speed if you keep it right side shift. That will improve shifting feel and still use your older cases. Sometimes I wish I'd converted mine to right side shift....still may in the future

[Dave1]

Thanks for the help, going to ditch the electric start. Going to get a right shift conversion kit from Hitchcocks for my 5 speed box.

Will need to talk to B.W. to see what we will do about primary cases. If he has a set of kick start primary cases. If not I could buy an inner kick start primary case, and I think my outer primary case would still fit?

[ace.cafe]

I will answer later. Don't have time right now.

[dginfw]

Short answer :  yes
You can buy an inner primary for a 4sp kick only, but it will require drilling and tapping 3 small new holes in the left side case (this has to be done on all electric-to-kick only conversions)  its not hard to do and is pretty easy once you have the cases open. I did mine on a work bench with a hand held drill...just make sure you dont go in at an angle. Inner primary covers can be found cheap
It will also require a new, thinner gear to go on the crank output shaft. Some members have used the stock gear -which is thicker because it has an extra gear ring attached for the sprag- and were able to cut off the unnecessary gear, but others buy the part.  Obviously its cheaper if you can have your existing gear cut.
Check with Bullet Whisperer (he's doing your build, right?) He might have an inner cover or gear he could sell you... it wouldn't hurt to ask

[Ice]

Hi guys I need some advice, I will be building an performance engine with B.W.

But I have some questions.
I have a 2004 Bullet 65 500cc Trials 5 speed, which is electric start. The bottom end we are going to use in the new engine is an kick starter model.

What we want to know is our options? would I be able to put an electric start primary case with all the internals of the electric starter primary onto an kick starter engine, with the electric starter? Is this possible? Or is there a better option?

 Bin the Electric Start system in it's entirety. They are problematic and fragile.  Their failure is not a question of if but a question of when. It may survive a hundred kick backs or none.

Do we need to tap new threads to mount the electric start inner primary case onto a kick starter bottom end? Either with or with out the electric starter?

 Yes. Three holes.
Best is to use a kick start primary, no drilling required.

Is there a difference between the engine sprocket from an electric start primary case or kick start primary case.

Yes, E/S engine sprockets are wider with extra row of gear teeth in order to accommodate the gear train of the E/S. A decent machinist can remove the extra row thereby narrowing the sprocket to KS standards. It will then fit within the KS primary.

Is there a difference between alternator rotor spacers from an 500cc electric start engine and a 500cc kick starter engine?

I seem to think so but don't remember accurately right now. C,c,c,cold ! Let me warm up for a bit.

Also will I be able to put a left shift 5 speed gearbox onto a kick starter only engine? Which originally had a 4 speed box?

 Not easily. Either an oil tight passage though the crank cases in the oil tank will have to be invented for the shift shaft to pass through to the left or a mouse trap of linkages going over and around the back half of the engine would be needed.

 Right hand shift conversion is easier and much more cost effective.

I already know the rocker oil lines are different between electric start and kick start models.

 Easy to mod those.  Also ES heads can be drilled and tapped for the larger banjo bolts of the KS oil lines. KS heads can be bushed for the smaller ES banjo bolts or the larger KS banjo bolts themselves can be drilled and tapped to accept the smaller ES banjo bolts. A simple distance piece in this case takes the place of the former large diameter banjo fitting and held tight by the large banjo bolts. The ES fitting and bolts are then installed. 

[ace.cafe]

You cannot use the 5-speed left shift with a 4-speed engine case. You must have a 5-speed engine case to use the left shift 5-speed. However, you can use the 5-speed gearbox with a right shift conversion on a 4-speed engine case.

If you want the ES, then use the ES engine cases You cannot convert the KS case to ES.
.

[Nixie]

I have a 2003 sixty5 and got a kit from Hitchcocks to remove the ES, keeping my outer case. I always preferred the older outer case without the hump but i think the alternator for our bikes requires the beefier primary. I still have mine left shift right brake but i suspect sometime in the future this might be fixed also. once the clutch was bedded in and the engine tuned better it wdidn't cut out or stall anyway which is the only real plus to the ES. Kick starting with a good ignition system and the decomp is pretty simple anyway - even at traffic lights

[Dave1]

Hello guys, B.W has a kick start inner primary case, if I just buy the normal 25 tooth engine sproket meant for a kick start model this should work?

Is the alternator bigger in the electric start models or the same? 

If the alternator is bigger, can I use my outer primary case on a kick starter inner primary case?

I am ditching the electric start. And going to covert to right foot change with a kit from Hitchcocks?

[cafeman]

See this page, starting at post #33 on down. I sourced the various parts individually to do an electric start to kick start primary conversion. You save a bunch, a ton of money. I'm sure you have the resources to cut off the gear on the existing engine sprocket which is the only additional step needed vs. buying the kit, and save on buying it

https://forum.classicmotorworks.com/index.php/topic,19299.30.html

[ace.cafe]

We always cut off the ES sprocket on the ES to KS conversion unless we are converting to belt drive primary.

[Ice]

 Dave,
 The splines on the engine output shafts are different as are the corresponding sprockets. KS uses inch pattern splines while ES uses metric.
 Hence the cutting of ES sprockets when going KS as no one made conversion sprockets.

 I believe it may have been bltrdr who discovered this.

 Since yours will be a KS bottom end the easy answer is retain the KS sprocket.   

 ES alternators are a nice upgrade to a KS bike, netting you some additional watts and all.  They are four wire instead of three so some "plumbing" is required. Not bad at all.

[Dave1]

Again thanks guy, I have ordered a normal kick starter outer primary case.

So Ice, I just have to cut the ES sprockets off? The alternator and everything else will then fit?

So Ice I wonder if you can clear this up for me, my alternator from my 2004 5 speed Bullet 65 is being taken out of my current bike and fitted to B.W. new engine..but we are putting B.W. ASBO engine with my alternator in my frame. So my bike/frame/wiring should already be there? I shouldn't have to alter it?

[Adrian II]

Refitting your existing alternator ought to be fine, especially if everything was already in good condition. Permanently binning the E/S (or selling the bits on ebay) means that you can (if you want) remove the starter solenoid and associated wiring, and if you're into weight-saving you can now fit a smaller battery. If the existing battery is OK, however, I would leave it alone.

A.

[Dave1]

My current battery is fine, not very old and a sealed gel type. If removing the solenoid is easy might as well go.