Author Topic: Anyone know what these cams are? (Read 24911 times)

Bullet Whisperer · **on:** February 03, 2016, 01:47:40 pm

Just wondering what these cams might be, if anything other than standard. I have seen many 'standard' Indian cams and I am aware there can be small variations from one set to another, but these appear to have the slightest edge on most standard cams, with the tiniest amount of extra lift and duration - probably only a matter of a few thou at most - but there is also this logo on them, which I have not seen before.
Anyone know anything?
[Same cam in both pictures, by the way]
B.W.

ace.cafe · **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2016, 02:24:46 pm

I don't know.
I have seen photos of cams somewhere with those logos on them. Maybe it was on Ebay.
I have never owned any of those, and have never measured their profiles.

Maybe somebody from India might recognize it.

Adrian II · **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2016, 03:21:20 am

I'm sure that logo is on the AVL cams, I'll check my Electra's original exhaust cam tomorrow. They're not a set of Henry Price's "R" cams by any chance, are they? I know he used AVL cams as blanks, as the AVL profile is larger than the standard cam.

A.

Ice · **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2016, 04:15:25 am

Curios. Could they be Egli ?

ace.cafe · **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2016, 04:06:06 pm

If they are R Cams from price, they will be approx .352"(I) and .330"(E) lobe lifts.

If they began as AVL cams, and reground, they may have been done at any unknown cam shop or even at some unknown Indian supplier vIA ebay.

guss,guss · **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2016, 08:58:55 pm

where did you get the cams, BW ?

like, zoiks! sounds like a mystery.

PS, i enjoy the video of slo poke. i want my bullet to sound and run like that someday.

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2016, 12:09:28 am

Thanks, all for the replies so far. guss, guss - these cams came with a basket case engine which will become 'Asbo' 19 in the near future, these cams look 'quality', rather than 'hot'.
B.W.

Adrian II · **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2016, 02:39:36 am

My spare AVL exhaust cam definitely has the same design stamped on in roughly the same position, only it's a bit clearer. The steel cam bushes (instead of bronze) also point to Indian manufacture rather than Redditch.

A.

arindamcc · **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2016, 04:12:16 am

Here is a picture of new oem cam of 350cc CI Model part no 141991 manufacture date 05/2015 I think it will help.

Dave1 · **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2016, 06:09:39 pm

Quote from: Bullet Whisperer on February 05, 2016, 12:09:28 am

Thanks, all for the replies so far. guss, guss - these cams came with a basket case engine which will become 'Asbo' 19 in the near future, these cams look 'quality', rather than 'hot'.
B.W.

By 'quality' do you mean road race cams compared to 'hot' racing cam?

I'd be interested to find out if these are indeed price cams, and what your thoughts are on them BW.

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2016, 06:32:22 pm

Quote from: arindamcc on February 05, 2016, 04:12:16 am

Here is a picture of new oem cam of 350cc CI Model part no 141991 manufacture date 05/2015 I think it will help.

That looks like them. Thanks!
B.W.

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2016, 06:34:49 pm

Quote from: Dave1 on February 05, 2016, 06:09:39 pm

By 'quality' do you mean road race cams compared to 'hot' racing cam?

I'd be interested to find out if these are indeed price cams, and what your thoughts are on them BW.

I don't think they are a performance cam at all, but they appear to be well made and I noticed they were a good fit in the timing chest, with no slop or backlash between each other and the other gears.
B.W.

Kevin Mahoney · **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2016, 07:24:07 pm

I have seen the marking before and think it is an Indian manufacturer. One thing I have learned about ALL cams including OEM cams is that there is a lot of variation. A typical Bullet whisperer in India keeps a box full of cams and hand fits them to each engine that he works on to find a good fit.

cafeman · **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2016, 08:06:41 pm

I'd like to hear more about these Price "R" cams also, and how they rank amongst both Hitchcock's versions, Ace's cams, as well as BW's "S" grinds and the re-phased option. Anyone running those "R" cams? Just for everyone's reference...kinda scattered info among many posts and forums.

ace.cafe · **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2016, 09:08:02 pm

Quote from: cafeman on February 05, 2016, 08:06:41 pm

I'd like to hear more about these Price "R" cams also, and how they rank amongst both Hitchcock's versions, Ace's cams, as well as BW's "S" grinds and the re-phased option. Anyone running those "R" cams? Just for everyone's reference...kinda scattered info among many posts and forums.

I helped him design them.
They reflect my cam philosophy. Very good value. Street grind.

longstrokeclassic · **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2016, 11:40:59 pm

Dyno run showing the difference between Indian cams and an early set of Price cams. 350 engine, 3rd gear run. Stock cams ran out of breath at 52mph.
Unfortunately I don't have the earlier run conditions which may or may not show them in a more or less favourable light.

cafeman · **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2016, 11:45:18 pm

Quote from: portisheadric on February 05, 2016, 11:40:59 pm

Dyno run showing the difference between Indian cams and an early set of Price cams. 350 engine, 3rd gear run. Stock cams ran out of breath at 52mph.
Unfortunately I don't have the earlier run conditions which may or may show them in a more or less favourable light.

That's a nice cliff!

longstrokeclassic · **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2016, 11:50:24 pm

Can you spot the difference ?

cafeman · **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2016, 04:22:45 am

Nice nose and ramps on the right one. Be interesting to see "all" the specs

Ice · **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2016, 08:30:46 am

Base circles appear to be different as well.

Dave1 · **Reply #20 on:** February 06, 2016, 10:19:11 am

Thanks portichead ric for the dynograph, through searching I found this a while ago https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18IS8MBcAoalpOWOmf45hpNSlX-czfCmkZuA7oV0NCzQ/edit , and I taught myself what some of the more basic data means, I think!

If the data is correct, then price r cams should have the bring the power band in nice and low and have good low to mid torgue. But loose out on top end power to the s cams and magnum cams, the magnum cams from what I can see there have the best top end. But we all know when it comes to a performance engine its how well the whole package is designed, and the quality of the build. I think Ace make the best engine package.

I'd still be interested to know Hitchcocks cam data.

cafeman · **Reply #21 on:** February 06, 2016, 12:24:11 pm

Nice find on the spead sheet Dave1, very informative. One thing I find very helpful when comparing cam specs is to print out an image of a degree wheel and then mark out intake and exhaust timing events. Really helps to see "the numbers" and compare the cams along with the cam card info.

cafeman · **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2016, 12:53:52 pm

Just did a quickie with plotting of the duration and overlap specs for the "R" cams:

ace.cafe · **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2016, 01:32:54 pm

Quote from: Dave1 on February 06, 2016, 10:19:11 am

Thanks portichead ric for the dynograph, through searching I found this a while ago https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18IS8MBcAoalpOWOmf45hpNSlX-czfCmkZuA7oV0NCzQ/edit , and I taught myself what some of the more basic data means, I think!

If the data is correct, then price r cams should have the bring the power band in nice and low and have good low to mid torgue. But loose out on top end power to the s cams and magnum cams, the magnum cams from what I can see there have the best top end. But we all know when it comes to a performance engine its how well the whole package is designed, and the quality of the build. I think Ace make the best engine package.

I'd still be interested to know Hitchcocks cam data.

The most important aspect is the head.
Cams do their job, and are important, but they need a good head.

Also, the R Cams should significantly outperform the S Cams, mostly due to the higher lift. If the S Cams really do close the exhaust valve at 50°ATDC, then that is too late(IMO) for a street bike, and would be expected to lose some low rpm torque from that, compared to the others.

On that spreadsheet, there is an error on the re-phased stock cams entry. It closes inlet at 78°ABDC, not the 27°ABDC shown on the spreadsheet.
And the stock CI cams close inlet at 60°ABDC, not the 45°ABDC shown on the spreadsheet.
I know most of the Hitchcock cam figures too. They are all more racing oriented than what I do, but they do give good peak hp figures. I guess it depends upon rider sensitivity to low rpm torque. He says they ride fine around town. I have received numerous comments by owners who would not agree. At any rate, my cams are milder than his, and are more "torquey" down low due to shorter overlap. We use the better flowing head to get good power results with milder cams.

Dave1 · **Reply #24 on:** February 06, 2016, 03:21:49 pm

Thanks for the help Ace, I am soon going to be an Asbo Bullet rider. I have sent a request to the owner of the spread sheet so that I can edit the details and correct them with the details you mentioned.

It's great that you have commented on the Hitchcocks cams, I'm not building a racing bike but a road race machine which can cruise at 80-85mph, so I will probably pick up some R cams.

cafeman · **Reply #25 on:** February 06, 2016, 03:50:28 pm

Just like building a great running street v-8 engine, one sure way to build a pig of an engine is too much cam. Glad I fought the urge to run the Hitchcock grinds, I don't spend my time at the dragstrip, or ride straight open roads and do full throttle runs at the top end. Real twisty roads, sweepers, in foothills and mountains where maintaining momentum and the ability to power on at apexes is needed. With my engine build and the rephased cams things are pretty good , but those "r" cams are looking really good.

ace.cafe · **Reply #26 on:** February 06, 2016, 04:21:33 pm

Quote from: cafeman on February 06, 2016, 03:50:28 pm

Just like building a great running street v-8 engine, one sure way to build a pig of an engine is too much cam. Glad I fought the urge to run the Hitchcock grinds, I don't spend my time at the dragstrip, or ride straight open roads and do full throttle runs at the top end. Real twisty roads, sweepers, in foothills and mountains where maintaining momentum and the ability to power on at apexes is needed. With my engine build and the rephased cams things are pretty good , but those "r" cams are looking really good.

The R Cams are very much like the re-phased cams with extra lift. They lift as high as the stock port supports, which is about .350" lift. Above .350" lift, the stock port flow flattens off (does not increase much).
Same basic design philosophy as the all the Bullet cams that I have participated on. When I want more, I use rockers to get there. I don't use more lift unless the port can make use of it.

Dave1 · **Reply #27 on:** February 06, 2016, 05:05:18 pm

So if I had a head which flows better than stock, and was designed to take a carb up to 36mm...Then how would that effect the cams? Would the R cams be a good choice still or would another choice of cam be a better choice?

ace.cafe · **Reply #28 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:28:18 pm

Quote from: Dave1 on February 06, 2016, 05:05:18 pm

So if I had a head which flows better than stock, and was designed to take a carb up to 36mm...Then how would that effect the cams? Would the R cams be a good choice still or would another choice of cam be a better choice?

What displacement?
What port/manifold diameter?

Dave1 · **Reply #29 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:44:31 pm

518cc, not sure on the other details, and I am not sure it is fair to guess or put a tuners head details on a forum.

ace.cafe · **Reply #30 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:48:11 pm

Quote from: Dave1 on February 06, 2016, 09:44:31 pm

518cc, not sure on the other details, and I am not sure it is fair to guess or put a tuners head details on a forum.

Generally speaking, the more the head can flow, the less cam you need.
IMO, 36mm is a bit large for a 518cc application, unless it will be revving pretty high.

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #31 on:** February 06, 2016, 10:20:00 pm

Quote from: Dave1 on February 06, 2016, 09:44:31 pm

518cc, not sure on the other details, and I am not sure it is fair to guess or put a tuners head details on a forum.

Hi Ace,
It is one of mine and pencilled in for 'Asbo' No 19. Presently, we have a rebuilt bottom end with my trademark lightened crank, which is fitted with a forged steel conrod and roller big end. The cams I asked about at the beginning of this thread are fitted at present.
The cylinder head has been ported [by me] to a nominal 34mm inlet, flaring out at the manifold flange to 36mm, to give a margin should a carb of that size be required. The head was ported before I had the rest of the engine and taken off the shelf to contribute to this project. This engine is one for which I have slowly been working on isolated components, resulting in a more or less complete engine to assemble, short of a decent piston and alloy barrel at present. It was to be built as a complete engine before being made available, but I was asked if I had anything.
I intend to offer the so-called 9:1 American made piston from Hitchcocks, in a +0.060" oversize if available, although I rate them at 7.75:1 and will shorten the barrel by 2mm, to get closer to a true [by my calculations] 9:1 compression ratio.
It is not intended to build a revvy engine, similar units I have built in the past give around 30bhp @ rear wheel at around 5600 rpm or thereabouts, with good power from low engine speeds and a sharp torque rise.
I think we will be using standard valves, with competition springs, although any number of changes could be made to many of the specifications at this point, should they be requested. This engine build is aimed at lively acceleration from relatively low engine speeds, thanks to the lightened crank and getting quickly into its' torque zone, with the capability to rev to around 6000 rpm at times.
I have suggested an 18t gearbox sprocket, to aid a higher cruising speed, while not detracting too much from acceleration by going any larger, but the final decision will not be mine.
I also suggested a 32 - 34mm carb for this application.
B.W.

ace.cafe · **Reply #32 on:** February 06, 2016, 11:23:24 pm

Well B.W., it sounds like you have it well in hand.

Dave, just let B.W. give it what he wants to do to it. It's in skilled hands.

I like the choice of 18T sprocket too.

Dave1 · **Reply #33 on:** February 06, 2016, 11:48:25 pm

Already have Ace, I am very pleased, even getting excited, I am still very new to this, and we spoke a lot today on the phone, so I may of got a little confused!

dginfw · **Reply #34 on:** February 07, 2016, 10:31:06 pm

Sounds like you will have a well thought out, sweet running bike Dave.
Enjoy it !

Dave1 · **Reply #35 on:** February 08, 2016, 06:38:11 pm

Thanks dginfw, I am looking very forward to this. Been wanting an engine like this for 6 years. Finally is happening.

cafeman · **Reply #36 on:** February 09, 2016, 04:11:18 pm

Quote from: Bullet Whisperer on February 06, 2016, 10:20:00 pm

I intend to offer the so-called 9:1 American made piston from Hitchcocks, in a +0.060" oversize if available, although I rate them at 7.75:1 and will shorten the barrel by 2mm, to get closer to a true [by my calculations] 9:1 compression ratio.

B.W.

B.W.,

Do you have that piston now? I believe I've read in past posts that you have experience with these Robbins pistons on various builds you've done. What brand and size rings have you been using with them? These pistons require 1/16" 1st and 2nd compression rings and a 5/32" oil control ring as I'm sure you are aware of. Not very easily sourced these days in the sizes we need for these engines. Just wondering what you have come up with in the past. The rings on the Robbins .040 over piston I bought from Hitchcocks came with Caber brand rings, but with the correct piston/bore clearance the end gaps were at the max on all when checked. No allowance for file to fit as I'd hoped so I'm in the process of sourcing correct rings from either Total Seal or Hastings here in the states. Awaiting info from both as to "wall" dimensions on their rings that fit "Axtell" 3-5/16" (std 3.312"/84.12mm with required oversize options) which fit old Harley Knuckleheads.
Update, just got off phone with Total seal. They don't have any rings to fit these pistons. They can modify the piston to accept bigger rings though. Not an ideal option IMO. Talked to Hastings, they have the ring sets still available and/or can package a set to fit the Robbins.

devon john · **Reply #37 on:** February 09, 2016, 05:00:55 pm

i run a R cam in my bike ,,, 535 ported big valve head omega piston amal carb roller bearing and carero rod bottom end etc ,19t sprocket
it pulls very well and i have not found it over geared,,,
i will see Henry Price the weekend ,,nice man

john

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #38 on:** February 09, 2016, 09:14:02 pm

Quote from: cafeman on February 09, 2016, 04:11:18 pm

B.W.,

Do you have that piston now? I believe I've read in past posts that you have experience with these Robbins pistons on various builds you've done. What brand and size rings have you been using with them? These pistons require 1/16" 1st and 2nd compression rings and a 5/32" oil control ring as I'm sure you are aware of. Not very easily sourced these days in the sizes we need for these engines. Just wondering what you have come up with in the past. The rings on the Robbins .040 over piston I bought from Hitchcocks came with Caber brand rings, but with the correct piston/bore clearance the end gaps were at the max on all when checked. No allowance for file to fit as I'd hoped so I'm in the process of sourcing correct rings from either Total Seal or Hastings here in the states. Awaiting info from both as to "wall" dimensions on their rings that fit "Axtell" 3-5/16" (std 3.312"/84.12mm with required oversize options) which fit old Harley Knuckleheads.
Update, just got off phone with Total seal. They don't have any rings to fit these pistons. They can modify the piston to accept bigger rings though. Not an ideal option IMO. Talked to Hastings, they have the ring sets still available and/or can package a set to fit the Robbins.

Hi Cafeman,
I have fitted a good number of these pistons to date and all has been well so far. I would assume Hitchcocks would be able to supply replacement rings, if required, as that's where my pistons came from, but if not, I have bought oddball piston rings for old Panther and AJS machines from these people in the U.K.
http://www.coxandturner.co.uk/holding.php
B.W.

cafeman · **Reply #39 on:** February 12, 2016, 03:03:19 am

Ace, you happen to know what the in/ex duration @.050" lift on those "R" cams are? Just wondering for wonderings sake, by an old Mopar B/RB V-8 enthusiast where those numbers are used in making cam choices. But "I" would be interested in knowing what "all" the cams @.050" specs are, especially the Hitchcocks cams, being they are more race oriented. It would be very interesting to see these numbers

ace.cafe · **Reply #40 on:** February 12, 2016, 02:47:14 pm

Quote from: cafeman on February 12, 2016, 03:03:19 am

Ace, you happen to know what the in/ex duration @.050" lift on those "R" cams are? Just wondering for wonderings sake, by an old Mopar B/RB V-8 enthusiast where those numbers are used in making cam choices. But "I" would be interested in knowing what "all" the cams @.050" specs are, especially the Hitchcocks cams, being they are more race oriented. It would be very interesting to see these numbers

Yes, of course.
They are about 240° duration between the .050" points.

The Hitchcock "fast road cams" give data at the 1mm lift points, and I don't have that sheet here in front of me. However, the big issue which affects them is a narrow lobe center and very wide overlap period of about 100 degrees. 50 before and 50 after. As you might expect, that essentially guarantees a loss of low rpm torque in comparison to the other cams which have about 60 degrees of overlap and wider lobe centers. Long overlap is good for high rpms, less good for lower rpms. Short overlap is better for low rpms and activities such as towing where high torque at lower rpms is important, but can run out of power at high rpms. The decision of how much overlap to use is important for the targeted application. As most decisions in engine modding, it comes down to the compromise that you feel is best, and pick an overlap period to suit.

It's a matter of cam philosophy, and what the goals are. We like the later intake closing and shorter overlap from wider lobe centers.

cafeman · **Reply #41 on:** February 13, 2016, 05:32:26 pm

Ace, thanks for the additional info on the "R" cams, which just arrived from England...couldn't help myself I suppose! Those were what I wanted to use when I did my build in 2014 but Price was out of stock at the time, plus $$ was tight so I went with re-phasing. With what I've done to my bike and how I use it I'm looking forward to that "little bit more".....sorta like going from "10" to "11"

Anyway, regarding cam philosophy, I'm in the middle of working out details and choices for a 360 V-8 small block build for a 67 Dodge van, a little hot rodded, but with good street manners for the real world. I've been looking at cams for these engines and the latest rage for the Mopars is cam makers offering cams with correct lobes to take advantage of the larger Mopar sized lifters vs. cams that have Chevy sized lobes (which use a smaller lifter diameter) and also "area under the curve".
I know you know this, larger lifter diameter offers the ability for more aggressive designed lobes, faster lift etc.. A couple of cam makers now have various grinds that in fact make more hp/torque with the larger lifter type lobes than comparable cams with the smaller lifter type lobes. Have read much of your writings here and elsewhere, as well as reacquainting myself with these V-8 engines and what cams are best. Seems the same theories apply, generally speaking of course. Could really get in deep with this stuff (reminds me of Hi-Fi equipment) Another wondering: with the mushroom style lifters in the Bullet engine, what are your thoughts of roller lifters and cams for our engines? From what I see it could be possible but.......Just ponderings

ace.cafe · **Reply #42 on:** February 13, 2016, 06:54:49 pm

The extra lift will really wake up your engine with the porting you have.

You could put in solid roller lifters, but they are very very heavy. I didn't consider it a good compromise, especially considering that special cam profiles would be needed for the roller lifters which were outside the available blank size, and would be very costly in small quantities.

Our mushroom tappets have plenty of foot, st over an inch, but the narrow stems prevent using it fully, due weak stems combined with high side thrust.

Dave1 · **Reply #43 on:** February 14, 2016, 11:44:31 am

Be interested to hear your thoughts on the R cams Cafeman after you have fitted them.

cafeman · **Reply #44 on:** February 25, 2016, 01:41:59 am

Quote from: Dave1 on February 14, 2016, 11:44:31 am

Be interested to hear your thoughts on the R cams Cafeman after you have fitted them.

Got them installed, everything checked out good, total timing reset and running. So much rain lately still haven't gotten it out on the road. Hope by this weekend

Dave1 · **Reply #45 on:** February 25, 2016, 10:37:39 am

Great, cant wait to tea the write up

Adrian II · **Reply #46 on:** February 25, 2016, 10:37:39 pm

Quote

Our mushroom tappets have plenty of foot, st over an inch, but the narrow stems prevent using it fully, due weak stems combined with high side thrust.

Not as weak as in the AVL engines, though!

A.

cafeman · **Reply #47 on:** February 27, 2016, 11:12:48 pm

Quote from: Dave1 on February 25, 2016, 10:37:39 am

Great, cant wait to tea the write up

Just got back from a short spin, 60mph max. Thru the gears no more than half throttle as I accelerated, definately seems stronger mid range, didnt rev beyond that, exhaust note seems different, more snarl from the Gold star silencer. Only reset timing, but might need to fiddle with jetting. Idles strong and consistent. Some more time in the saddle on some good roads is in order to get a better feel. But for what it's worth, I already notice an improvement in how it pulls.

ace.cafe · **Reply #48 on:** February 28, 2016, 01:38:59 pm

Glad you like them!

Here's how they came about.
Henry wanted to get some street cams made. He had a basic grind in mind, and he contacted me to bounce the design off me, and asked for my impressions. I looked at the spreadsheet and recommended that he make certain changes. He made those changes, and had some sets made. These changes essentially reflected my cam design concepts which we were working on over here. I checked a set out, and they measured and behaved as I expected.

The idea is like the Magnum cams. Shorten the overlap and lengthen the intake closing event, run a wider lobe center(112°ATDC), and increase the lift. At that time, nobody else was using this concept on Bullets, and Hitchcock and the others were running BSA Goldstar lobes ground on Bullet cam gears, with very narrow lobe centers (~100°ATDC or narrower), with very large overlap., and in some cases they still are. That's okay for some applications, but I feel that our cam concept is more appropriate for the Bullet for a variety of reasons. I think Henry agrees.

I have been acquainted with Henry by email for a long time now. I consider him a friend, and would not hesitate to work with him on other projects.

You might want to check your cranking compression because it might be lower now, depending on what cam timing that you previously ran. Especially when you put in your modified rockers. Both of those things can require you to boost up the cranking compression. Changing effective intake closing timing can cause a reduction in cranking compression, and you will want it up around 150 psi on a compression test.

cafeman · **Reply #49 on:** February 28, 2016, 02:16:11 pm

Ace, I installed them on the dots, along with the supplied timing pinion. I now have total ignition set at 32 degrees as a start, as was it previously with the re-phased cams which at the time yielded around 130-135psi cranking. Right now it is at 120psi BUT, along with the cam swap I also replaced the piston rings so will be a few miles more before seated. That Robbins piston I am running came with Caberg rings which has a one piece oil control ring, a chrome top, and a plain second. The gaps were near the max on tolerance when put in, had good compression, but was using too much oil. Hell, I may have glazed the cylinder for all I know. Went with custom .005" over rings from Hastings, with a proper 3pc oil. Anyway, will keep an eye on the compression as more miles are accumulated.

ace.cafe · **Reply #50 on:** February 28, 2016, 02:41:34 pm

Bumping the compression back up will give more "punch" in the lower rpms especially.
The "snarl" is one of the characteristics of our cam timing, notably the exhaust timing.

Dave1 · **Reply #51 on:** February 28, 2016, 06:04:13 pm

Makes for great reading guys thanks, certainly something for me to ponder on, I have just started today the running in procedure for my Asbo 19 engine!

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #52 on:** February 28, 2016, 06:19:56 pm

Quote from: Dave1 on February 28, 2016, 06:04:13 pm

Makes for great reading guys thanks, certainly something for me to ponder on, I have just started today the running in procedure for my Asbo 19 engine!

And this is the engine which uses the cams pictured at the start of this thread

B.W.

ace.cafe · **Reply #53 on:** February 28, 2016, 06:46:02 pm

Quote from: Bullet Whisperer on February 28, 2016, 06:19:56 pm

And this is the engine which uses the cams pictured at the start of this thread
B.W.

Awesome!
The ASBO series continues to grow!

Adrian II · **Reply #54 on:** February 28, 2016, 07:49:16 pm

Quote from: Bullet Whisperer on February 28, 2016, 06:19:56 pm

And this is the engine which uses the cams pictured at the start of this thread
B.W.

So they are "R" cams, then? That's what you fitted to ASBO 14 for me!

A.

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #55 on:** February 28, 2016, 09:58:50 pm

Quote from: arindamcc on February 05, 2016, 04:12:16 am

Here is a picture of new oem cam of 350cc CI Model part no 141991 manufacture date 05/2015 I think it will help.

Adrian, going by this, I had assumed they were standard after all ...

Dave1 · **Reply #56 on:** February 29, 2016, 01:03:59 pm

Quote from: Bullet Whisperer on February 28, 2016, 06:19:56 pm

And this is the engine which uses the cams pictured at the start of this thread
B.W.

Yes, so far so good, the engine is running very well with them. Cant wait until the engine is runned in, then I can open her up

guss,guss · **Reply #57 on:** February 29, 2016, 11:25:25 pm

with the R cams, does the case need to be grinded out for clearance? Can the valve guide seals be used with them? and what does ASBO mean? is it the BW special ?

Ice · **Reply #58 on:** February 29, 2016, 11:42:01 pm

Quote from: guss,guss on February 29, 2016, 11:25:25 pm

with the R cams, does the case need to be grinded out for clearance? Can the valve guide seals be used with them? and what does ASBO mean? is it the BW special ?

A definition of ASBO.
Anti-Social Behavior Order was a civil order made in the U.K. against a person who had been shown, on the balance of evidence, to have engaged in anti-social behaviour. The orders were introduced by Prime Minister Tony Blair in 1998 and continued in use until 2015. They were designed to correct minor incidents that would not ordinarily warrant criminal prosecution. The orders restricted behaviour in some way, such as prohibiting a return to a certain area or shop, or restricting public behaviour such as swearing or drinking alcohol.
Many saw the ASBO as connected with young delinquents.

The REal definition of ASBO.
Proper English for certain motorcycles built by a certain engineer, quite capable of and well well suited to uh, uhh,,ahem *spirited riding*.

cafeman · **Reply #59 on:** February 29, 2016, 11:56:01 pm

Quote from: guss,guss on February 29, 2016, 11:25:25 pm

with the R cams, does the case need to be grinded out for clearance? Can the valve guide seals be used with them? and what does ASBO mean? is it the BW special ?

Ace will have the definitive answers for sure, they installed straight in no grinding the case for me. I'm not running seals, have Hitchcock's bronze guides and performance valve kit. It really depends on what guides and collars used as for seal clearance.

Adrian II · **Reply #60 on:** March 01, 2016, 12:00:31 am

Quote from: guss,guss on February 29, 2016, 11:25:25 pm

with the R cams, does the case need to be grinded out for clearance? Can the valve guide seals be used with them? and what does ASBO mean? is it the BW special ?

Regarding the cams, here's the link to them on Henry Price's site:

http://www.pricepartmotorcycles.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1089370-141991R.html

Quote

These have been developed to replace to the standard "Soft" tune cam gears on the 350cc & 500cc Bullets.

Designed to give more low down torque, for ease of slow speed riding, but increased performance in the upper rev range.

An ideal upgrade, which requires no modification to the crankcase, No special tools required. Just check ignition timing when fitted.

The ASBO as a constraining mechanism was sadly open to abuse and some quite inappropriate imposition by clueless magistrates' courts in the UK. They were not same as speeding fines for any RE enthusiast caught riding one of B.W.s creations over-exuberantly.

B.W. did tell me how the name arose, but I'll let him refresh the collective memory himself! Let's just say an ASBO Bullet is a bit more "in your face" (from the point of view of a certain section of the population) than the factory version or other modern bikes having to comply with the latest raft of noise regulations...

A.

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #61 on:** March 01, 2016, 08:16:30 am

Here are some copy / paste extracts from a blog I had going in late 2009 on the Midland Bullet Riders forum, covering the evolution of the bike which brought about the name for the first time ...

'Got another short spin in today [about 15 miles], also put a tenner's worth in the tank - not far from full again - will monitor the level in tank and keep a rough estimate of mileage against it. She seemed willing to cruise around est. 60 - 65 mph on less than half open throttle without labouring in the slightest, although travelling through Llandovery it was enjoyable to keep in third, shutting off for corners etc and just giving her a quick handfull to pick up again - what a bark and instant response! Don't know if that many other people enjoyed it mind, I'm sure I heard a four letter word from somewhere when I fired her up in Stone Street after visiting the hardware shop!'
And ...
'Made more noise today, joined by Fury on his 1953 scrambles Bullet 350. This was another fairly short test run for the two machines of approx 30 miles all in up to 'Tafarn Jem' near Lampeter and back.
There is a good long drag uphill for a few miles from just after Pumpsaint right up to Tafarn Jem, where we turned round, at the top of the hill overlooking Lampeter. All went well until nearly home when, after some misfiring, the scrambler stalled at some roadworks and refused to start. I went home on the 500 Indian Bullet, which ran fine with no pinking and no signs of tightening up on that big hill, to get the van and collect Fury and the scrambler. On investigation, there was no spark. Cleaning the plug, which didn't look too bad brought the spark back and she fired up ok after that.
My 500, which if pressed to name I would call 'Asbo' got some minor improvements today. Firstly I drilled and tapped the R.H. mirror hole on the handlebar controls to accept a spare CB500T mirror. Another Honda item, a rear light unit replaced the tiny round Wipac Bantam type rear light, which seems difficult to get 12v bulbs for [both were blown]. To add a British flavour, I used a pair of front brackets for a Tiger Cub rear mudguard to attatch the light to the mudguard. Now people might see when I am braking and I may even venture out after dark !
So far I am guessing at 45 - 50 mpg, not brilliant, but she is very quick and you can't have the penny and the bun !'
Link ...
http://www.midlandbullets.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=683.52

ace.cafe · **Reply #62 on:** March 01, 2016, 12:10:36 pm

Quote from: guss,guss on February 29, 2016, 11:25:25 pm

with the R cams, does the case need to be grinded out for clearance? Can the valve guide seals be used with them? and what does ASBO mean? is it the BW special ?

It is likely that it will need case grinding.
Some cases have enough room, but most will need at least some grinding on the exhaust lobe sweep area. Some engine cases have a little more room there than others. All Enfield castings have variations.

I doubt that valve guide seals will allow enough valve travel for higher lift cams. At any rate the normal valve springs aren't good enough for it either. The Bullet valve gear is archaic, and that's why we got rid of it, and put in real performance valve gear. If you want to use the Bullet valve gear, you can get Hitchcock competition valve springs, and eliminate the valve seals, which is not ideal, but people do it.

The ports are not up to it either, to say nothing of the bottom end either, but people still try to do it anyway.

Adrian II · **Reply #63 on:** March 01, 2016, 06:20:16 pm

The Hitchcock 500 performance cams definitely have higher lift, their technical notes show what's needed to get the cams to fit.

As you say, tuning up a Bullet needs a bit of joined-up thinking. There is no way I would have avoided using the steel con-rod and needle roller big-end for ASBO14, despite the fun and games B.W. had getting it fitted.

A.

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #64 on:** March 01, 2016, 07:03:14 pm

The original Redditch 'R' cams will fit [certainly into a late '50's Redditch 350] without modifying the crankcase area around the lobes. I put some into my Father's 350 café racer, which also has a shortened barrel, 10:1 compression, Amal 389 and close ratio gears. It can reach 80mph very quickly, overtaking isn't a problem and, if pressed, it can hit 90mph flat out.
Here it is ...

malky · **Reply #65 on:** March 01, 2016, 07:05:28 pm

nice.

ace.cafe · **Reply #66 on:** March 01, 2016, 08:01:55 pm

Yes, very nice!

Redditch "R Cams" will fit without case grinding. They have the same lift as standard.

However, these other kind of "R Cams" being discussed are not Redditch R Cams, although the same name is being used by the vendor. And they have higher lift than standard, so it might be needed to do some clearance grinding for them.

Just in case there was any confusion regarding the same name on different products.

guss,guss · **Reply #67 on:** March 04, 2016, 08:27:07 pm

Hey cafeman, how does the bike sound at idle with the R cams? wondering if it has a lobe sound.

cafeman · **Reply #68 on:** March 04, 2016, 08:48:36 pm

Quote from: guss,guss on March 04, 2016, 08:27:07 pm

Hey cafeman, how does the bike sound at idle with the R cams? wondering if it has a lobe sound.

I want to say the "thump" has just a little more "thump" or pop to it, like I mentioned earlier, seems like theres a little more "snarl" from the Gold Star silencer when accelerating.

guss,guss · **Reply #69 on:** March 06, 2016, 01:00:06 am

Quote from: Bullet Whisperer on March 01, 2016, 07:03:14 pm

The original Redditch 'R' cams will fit [certainly into a late '50's Redditch 350] without modifying the crankcase area around the lobes. I put some into my Father's 350 café racer, which also has a shortened barrel, 10:1 compression, Amal 389 and close ratio gears. It can reach 80mph very quickly, overtaking isn't a problem and, if pressed, it can hit 90mph flat out.
Here it is ...

vary nice looking bike. whats in the big end?

Bullet Whisperer · **Reply #70 on:** March 06, 2016, 08:54:35 am

Quote from: guss,guss on March 06, 2016, 01:00:06 am

vary nice looking bike. whats in the big end?

Shock, horror - my Father bought the bike in 1980 /81 and although it was in a different form back then [scruffy, tired and slow café racer], we have only ever worked on the top end for tuning, timing chest [cams] and gearbox [to fit close ratio gears], the bottom end has never been apart, certainly since the bike has been in our possession. I strongly suspect it may have the original plain big end still going strong

B.W.

cafeman · **Reply #71 on:** March 06, 2016, 11:46:11 pm

Quote from: ace.cafe on February 28, 2016, 02:41:34 pm

Bumping the compression back up will give more "punch" in the lower rpms especially.
The "snarl" is one of the characteristics of our cam timing, notably the exhaust timing.

After a good ride with varying rpm's and speeds the compression is now @ 125psi, plug looking good, no oil consumption, and did a quick blast up to 85mph indicated (speedo is 3-4mph off so 80+actual) Room to go is obvious, @ about 70-75mph (17t sprocket) it felt like it could run all day effortlessly. Safe to say there is more grunt running through the gears, while rephased stock cams were impressive, so far even more impressed with the "R" grind!

ace.cafe · **Reply #72 on:** March 07, 2016, 01:16:20 am

Quote from: cafeman on March 06, 2016, 11:46:11 pm

After a good ride with varying rpm's and speeds the compression is now @ 125psi, plug looking good, no oil consumption, and did a quick blast up to 85mph indicated (speedo is 3-4mph off so 80+actual) Room to go is obvious, @ about 70-75mph (17t sprocket) it felt like it could run all day effortlessly. Safe to say there is more grunt running through the gears, while rephased stock cams were impressive, so far even more impressed with the "R" grind!

80mph is right about 5000 rpm in top with a 17T. 6000 rpm would be about 96 mph. With a little more compression, the bike should hit 102 mph with an 18T sprocket, if you are so inclined .

cafeman · **Reply #73 on:** March 07, 2016, 01:46:43 am

Quote from: ace.cafe on March 07, 2016, 01:16:20 am

80mph is right about 5000 rpm in top with a 17T. 6000 rpm would be about 96 mph. With a little more compression, the bike should hit 102 mph with an 18T sprocket, if you are so inclined .

Cool, been meaning to do the calculating to determine rpm's at various speeds in each gear. I switched from an 18 back to the 17 a few months after the big rebuild as it's better suited for the roads I ride. Definitely better in my case

Dave1 · **Reply #74 on:** March 07, 2016, 10:04:48 am

Thanks for the detailed reports Cafeman, when I have runned in ASBO 19, and have some more spare cash, I might get some of these cams.

Adrian II · **Reply #75 on:** March 08, 2016, 03:18:02 pm

Start saving!

A.

Dave1 · **Reply #76 on:** March 08, 2016, 04:52:34 pm

Oh I will

Chrism · **Reply #77 on:** April 23, 2016, 05:26:24 pm

Hi all,

I've just fitted a set of these to my 350, with the standard piston. I deliberated whether to before I got the high compression item but decided to see what happened... I thought I'd post to add another data point:

Idle seems smoother with a little more noise out of the pipe.

No noticeable loss low down, in fact they've cured an annoying flat spott just slightly off ide that I'd not been able to tune out.

Then there's a far better, more eager (almost urgent!) midrange and then maybe a tiny bit extra on top compared to the standard cam. Throttle response seems improved but the bike's hasn't got a higher top speed I've noticed. It sounds awesome wide open too.

The bike's running a "performance" filter bunged into the standard airbox with the bottom cut off, the Indian "shorty" baffled pipe, standard idle jet, richer slide, standard needle raised a slot and a 95 main jet.

I stepped the main jet down with the standard cams from 105 after a bunch of plug chops but may now go back to 100 to see what happens - I may get a bit extra on top but a plug chop shows the engine is happy at the moment.

Dave1 · **Reply #78 on:** July 15, 2017, 11:39:52 pm

Well, just thought I'd give everyone an update. So the engine has just finished being ran in, having done 2000 miles. So I have just fitted some R cams.

The R cams were not a straight swap. I should point out my engine is a 1996 or 1998 can't remember which year. I had to grind away some metal on the exhaust cam side. The cams turned fine, but I could see the gap between the cam and crank/timing chest cast was very close. I could see oil/black marks. Too close for my liking! So I grinded some of the metal away. Which has now sorted the problem. Unfortunately the timing gears turned putting the distributer timing out. So after fitting the R cam I had to re time the engine. Which I did with top dead centre tool, degree wheel, and strobe light.

Took some getting used too, I had to advance the distributor pinion by one tooth, as it was not letting me get the engine quite to 32 degrees.

Well I finally got it right, the engine starts easy, and revs good. Proof of the pudding will be in the riding tomorrow! Hopefully all is well and it wont need anymore adjustment. Not bad so far, considering this is the first time I have timed an engine.