[PhilJ]

Ok! Gonna alter my catch can arrangement. While researching the forum and the Bunn Breather I ran across a post that had an article by “Tim in NZ”. Their method was to rearrange the hoses into the breather. Block off the timing chest hose. Run the primary breather hose back under the bike(your choice where). Reverse the main breather hose from the crankcase/oil tank to the catch can. I.E. putting the sharp bend coming out of the oil tank into the catch can.

Those are the basics of it. My question is two fold; 1. Do the older iron bike have an air breather vent on the primary? 2. Since I can’t imagine and have never heard about any fluid being released from the primary via the breather vent, couldn’t you just run the primary vent into the timing chest to recirculate the fumes eventually get back to the air filter/carburetor?

Phil

[ace.cafe]

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying there.

However, I converse with Tim regularly on the breather issues on another forum.

We both agree that the main breather, whether it's coming off the oil tank like the later models, or coming off the left crankcase like the earlier models, the breather hose routing should be the same.
You'll need to buy a length of hose, about 3/8" inner diameter, that is long enough for where you'll want to go with it, because the stock hose won't be long enough to re-route properly.

The appropriate way to run the main breather hose is to route it immediately upwards, all the way up under the seat.
This makes the breather act as a "standpipe" and eliminates any "puking" of oil or anything out of the breather.
The next phase is where to route the exit.
I route mine toward the rear of the bike, tied with cable ties along the fender brace, and exit it at the license plate, with a duckbill on the exit end.
No "dips" in the hose. Bring it up high, and then have a gradual route downward to the exit. If there's a dip in the hose route, it may collect oil at the low point in the dip and cause the breather to be blocked by oil collecting in the dip. No dips.
This works extremely well for me.
No catch can.
An alternate way is to route the breather up high under the seat, and then bring it down to the catch can with the duckbill inside the catch can. That's if you still want to have the catch can setup. If you'd rather skip the catch can and just route the duckbill to the chain for a chain-oiler, you can do that too, but it won't drip much oil.
I think routing it out the back of the bike is the best, personally. I don't like the idea of an oil mist from the breather near the back tire. With the exit at the license plate, any oil mist just goes behind the bike, and won't affect anything.

Either way, it is important to route the breather tube up high right away, and then take the rest of the tube where you want to go with it.
That will stop any problems you have with breather issues, and it won't puke oil, nor will it load up with "mayonnaise" from water condensation.
it will run clean, and have a good "pump down' of crankcase pressure to help ring sealing and reduce blow-by, and help improve power too.

You can plug  the timing chest breather tube. It doesn't do anything useful anyway.

[PhilJ]

Ace, Below is what I pull off the forum here. It proposes a method to keep the can which I would like to do since recycling the fumes won't hurt anything. My question really was would it hurt to run the primary breather over to the timing case breather.

Phil

Tim's post;
A Lot of owners of post '04 bikes (Bullets and Electra X) report engine
breather problems; to which end there are several highly (expensive)
touted fixes to 'cure' the 'problem'.
Not required!

The root of the problem is the main engine breather pipe that comes off
the top of the oil tank; it is routed underneath the main frame cross
tube, then it passes underneath the battery, and curves up into the
catch can.
That very first bend in the pipe is acute, (not a good start) and then
the pipe is forced to dip down under the frame tube and battery.
There in lies the problem; that low point dip in the breather pipe
fills with oil and condensate, eventually blocking up. Slowly it is
pumped up to the catch can, in time the catch can fills with the foul
stuff. Soon all the breather lines are blocked with the excrement, and
then the oil and condensate gloop is forced into the air filter
housing...
A double helping of crap on cold soggy toast for dinner...
:-(

The cure:
Disconnect the main breather pipe completely.
Remove the main breather pipe from off the top of engine, and disconect
it from the catch can.
Turn it around so that the acute bend is no longer attached to the top
of the oil tank. (That end is now going and onto the catch can)
Instead of the breather pipe passing UNDER the frame cross tube, run it
OVER the frame and behind the battery, and back up to the catch can.
Ensure that the pipe has a constant rise in it, No dips of falls.
it will be a 'tight' fit, but it does fit...

That is half the fix.
Now any oil that is carried out from the engine with the crankcase fume
and that passes into the breather pipe is able to drain back into the
oil tank. No longer does it condense in the breather pipe and cause it
to block.

The second part of the fix has two options; one is a factory retro
upgrade for the Drain pipe that runs from the catch can back to the
timing cover.
For the Electra X it involves the fitting of a short Duck Bill breather
INSIDE the timing cover, onto the internal end of the breather pipe.
On the Classis, the upgrade involves a replacement Drain pipe with an
internal Duck Bill installed. Though both are interchangable...
This stops the engine from venting UP the Drain pipe, but allows for
any Oil that makes its way into the catch can to drain back into the
timing cover.
In reality, with the repositioned main breather pipe as described
above, next to no all whatsoever ever makes into the catch can!

So I prefer to disconnect the catch-can drain line, and blank off the
drain pipe on the fitting at the rear of the timing cover.
I simply run the drain line down to the rear chain, with a duck bill
fitting on the end of it.
Any oil that does get it to the catch-can is used to lube the chain.
Any fume expelled from the motor is still able to be recycled via the
Air-box.

In the case of the Electra X: Also disconnect the vent line from the
catch can that runs to the Primary chain case, and simply run it down
over the rear of the bike behind the gear box.
Block off the connection at the catch-can to maintained a 'Closed
circuit'.

Instant solution to the engine breather problems!
No more condensate build up in the engine or breather lines, no water
retained in the oil tank; clear breather lines at all times, and no
compromise to pollution control.
Takes about 10-15 minutes to do, and minimal cost for a secondary Duck
Bill breather to go on the end of the relocated drain line.

The net result also features in a slight drop in average crankcase
operating pressure. Oil consumption will be minimalised, and the Gloop
that used to be accumulating in the oil is free to be expelled as the
gaseous vapour the system was originally designed to handle.

Well tested and proved to work 100%.

Tim
N.Z."

[Thumper]

Phil,

If your's is an Electra, read-on; otherwise disregard.

I chose an interim solution on my Electra X. I blocked off the return hose into the timing chest and re-routed it to dispense on my drive chain. This solved the issue of acidic sludge corroding the internals. I decided to utilize the OEM canister primarily for the superior one way valve in the main crank breather hose. I also left the primary case breather attached to the OEM canister.

Details are in the 'Hoses' section of:
http://members.verizon.net/allofusmorrows/PerfUpgrade.htm

Matt

[ace.cafe]

Phil,
I think you could probably do that, because it would all end up venting out of the main breather anyway, since the timing chest is internally vented to the oil tank anyway.

I didn't even know they were doing something as stupid as having a breather on the primary chaincase!
No, no older "normal" Bullet would ever have such an insanely stupid device on it.
I cannot even believe the idiocy of that.
When did they start with that nonsense?

[PhilJ]

Ace & Matt

I don't when it was started. My bike is an '08 Classic AVL.
I didn't think the older bikes would have had a breather on the primary. So really if I so chose, I could block off both primary and timing chest. I don't know what I'll do I hate blocked off stubs and the one hose going between primary and T-chest might be more aesthetic to me.

But the rest of Tim's method I liked.

Phil

edit: And thanks to you both for you replies.

[clamp]

Why is a breather  from the primary considered to be so stupid?

[PhilJ]

The only reason I can think of is that if it wasn't necessary on the older bikes then why is it necessary now. The primaries have changed very little that I can tell.

[ace.cafe]

Why is a breather  from the primary considered to be so stupid?

Well, I probably reacted a bit over-the-top about it.

But, basically there is nothing to be vented out of the primary case, so there is no need to have a vent.


I think they were hanging a breather on anything at the end of the production, in some attempt to make it pass the emissions requirements. Perhaps there was some "rule" that said all cases common to the engine must have a hose.
Same with the timing chest hose too. It's already internally vented into the oil tank, so it would breathe out of the oil tank breather in the late models anyway. No need for a separate hose to do that.
Apparently there was some requirement to get "hose happy".

[PhilJ]

But they missed putting one on the transmission.   

[erob123]

Sounds interesting.  And when does this need to happen?  Or does it.  I'm 08 Military Iron @ 650 miles.   Sounds like something you  do when you get the bike.  Clogged breather tubes in the future don't sound good.

Thanks for the info.

[ace.cafe]

Sounds interesting.  And when does this need to happen?  Or does it.  I'm 08 Military Iron @ 650 miles.   Sounds like something you  do when you get the bike.  Clogged breather tubes in the future don't sound good.

Thanks for the info.

I would do it immediately.
There's no downside or disadvantage to doing it.
It's all for the good.

[cyrusb]

Does anyone have a picture of this primary breather? Also my 05 does not have a timing breather hose, but it does have (had)a return hose from the old catch can. I used the original vent hose and the original duck bill(it's in the can) and connected them with a piece of copper tubing. It's long enough to make it to the right side of the bike and lightly oils the right leg of the center stand. I have never used motor oil on my chains so the hose from cmw was not an option.

[Chuck D]

Reading this thread with interest. Out of curiosity I went out to the bike and checked my breather hoses and catch can. And yep, there was that acute first bend of hose coming out of the oil tank. What the heck, took it off and it was clean as the proverbial whistle on the inside. Removed the catch can and emptied out less than half a thimble full of dark oily matter. This is after over 4000 miles of use. Cleaned everything up nice and reassembled using the above mentioned hose reversal. Makes perfect sense when I thought about it. Anyway I figure it can't hurt. Since everything was so clean I figure the system must be working as designed. See what happens now. Still though, After messing with all those hoses, I'd like to get rid of the whole ugly mess. SO... the question I have is, how do you "blank off" the hole in the back of the timing case? I mean what do you actually use for this?  Thanks, Chuck.

[PhilJ]

I guess I should post a pic, but what I did was take the primary vent and after cutting off the correct amount of hose from the timing chest just put the two together. The primary and timing chest are breathing each others air.
It looks better to me than stubbing off the hoses at their inputs. If you were bent stubbing then find a bolt or dowel that will fit.

[PhilJ]

Ok here is the photo of the primary to timing chest breathers.
You'll be better of if you can open the picture in another tab. I don't know how to make my pictures smaller.

Phil

[cyrusb]

Ain't that something! That vent looks like it occupies the spot where my alternator wires exit the primary on my 05e. This must be a very late model bike. I guess the EPA is at work again.

[Chuck D]

Ok here is the photo of the primary to timing chest breathers.
You'll be better of if you can open the picture in another tab. I don't know how to make my pictures smaller.

Phil

Phil, thanks for the reply and the photo. Neat job! However, my '06 doesn't have the primary breather. As far as using a bolt for the blanking, am I to assume some hole tapping is in order?  Chuck.

[edthetermite]

Phil,

I'm like CyrusB I don't find a breather port on my primary case. Unless I can't see the forest for the trees.

My RE is one of the last 08 cast iron jobs. Military at that.

Dumping the crud accumulator does one other important thing: it frees up some limited space inside the frame to make troubleshooting/inspection easier. Since shitcanning the exhaust gas "air pulser" I also moved the rectifier and regulator to the left side compartment bin and created even more space inside the frame. I can now easily trace wires or inspect.

My 2 Cents,

Ed    -in the Ozarks
 

[clamp]

Some one said "I dont like motorbikes I cant see through"

     Who ever it was would probably like yours Mr termite.

  Have you took the air box off yet? that lets a lot of daylight through.

     I wonder just how much Royal Enfield is completely usless and wonder why they fitted it in the first place.  Surley all this uselss stuff could have been removed at the factory on its way out, It might cost a bit more to have some one remove all this crap but I think it would be a better bike for it.

      I thought I might take some spokes out ,    Im sure it could run on half that number of spokes.

      If you think about it theres probably quite a few bits could be removed and canned.

   

[PhilJ]

Ain't that something! That vent looks like it occupies the spot where my alternator wires exit the primary on my 05e. This must be a very late model bike. I guess the EPA is at work again.

From the pics I've seen Cyrus, your right it does occupy the niche. And of course you noticed where my alternator wire are. When you remove the primary cover for maintenance you must also remove the grommet holding the alternator wire. Not bad in itself but you then need to clean the grommet and put silicone on as added insurance against water. Phooy!

Phil

Oh, yes it is new an 08 Classic AVL

Ed,
It must be different on the Irons.

Chuck,

Yes about using a bolt or a dowel, no need to tap. Just leave a section of hose on timing chest vent and secure your blocking devise with silicone.

[erob123]

Phil,

I'm like CyrusB I don't find a breather port on my primary case. Unless I can't see the forest for the trees.

My RE is one of the last 08 cast iron jobs. Military at that.

Dumping the crud accumulator does one other important thing: it frees up some limited space inside the frame to make troubleshooting/inspection easier. Since shitcanning the exhaust gas "air pulser" I also moved the rectifier and regulator to the left side compartment bin and created even more space inside the frame. I can now easily trace wires or inspect.

My 2 Cents,

Ed    -in the Ozarks
 

The more I read the better it gets, also no tube to the primary on my 08 Sgt. York.  Ed I like the ideas to clean up the intestines.  Thanks, Eric

[Chuck D]

Chuck,

Yes about using a bolt or a dowel, no need to tap. Just leave a section of hose on timing chest vent and secure your blocking devise with silicone.


[/quote]                                                                                                                                       Phil, You just saved me at least an hour of pointless frustration. If there's a hard way to do something, I'll find it! One last question. Did you notice any performance difference when you stopped recirculating the crankcase gas into the airbox?

[PhilJ]

Yes I did. The performance difference was in my heart because I so hated the way that thing worked. Speed, acceleration nope didn't expect any either.

Chuck, your not alone on finding a hard way to do things. If I just jump up and start something, I guarantee it will be messed up and a redo will be in order. I now just set back and decide, yes, I want to do that. And several days later I'll have it all figured out. That being said though, doesn't mean my method is the best, it just means it most probably will work and I be happy with it.

[birdmove]

    Today I swapped ends on that breather hose too. I removed the battery.When I removed the battery, I found there was no battery vent/drain hose at all. I'll have to pick up a piece of hose for that. I found the breather hose had a pretty good kink in it at the drain box end. Also could not find a drain plug on the box at all. In order to swap the hose end for end, and roue it without getting another kink in it, I had to shorten the hose also. Nothing came out of the drain box when I pulled the hose. I did find some white milky glorp inside the hose, so blew it out the best I could.
    Jon

[sqf]

Mayo mmmmmm,
I had very little mayo this oil change, compared to what there was in there last oil change I am lead to believe that the dealer I bought it from didn't change the oil like they said they did.  I had just a very little but frothed around the oil fill neck.  None came out when I drained the oil though.  Last time actual water poured out with the mayo.

[ace.cafe]

Less mayo and no water is a good sign.

[PhilJ]

   ... . Nothing came out of the drain box when I pulled the hose. I did find some white milky glorp inside the hose, so blew it out the best I could.
    Jon

Nothing should have come out Jon. Inside is a built in duck bill. I would suggest taking the catch can off the check inside visually. If you found milky goop in the hose, there's probably some in the can.
Phil

[GreenMachine]

Those vent hoses from the factory setup have a 90 degree bend in them and this past spring I had to reem out the hose with a wire....lots of mayo...not much in the catch can or the return line...will see this fall when i change the oil again and check the catch can and hoses...wonder if its just getting plugged up and not getting to the catch can....My airbox with the factory air filter was fine with no noticeable anything in there....cheers

[PhilJ]

Read the earlier posts on this thread. There is a work around on the crankcase vent hose. essentially it just reverses the crankcase hose.

[AgentX]

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying there.

However, I converse with Tim regularly on the breather issues on another forum.

We both agree that the main breather, whether it's coming off the oil tank like the later models, or coming off the left crankcase like the earlier models, the breather hose routing should be the same.
...

Either way, it is important to route the breather tube up high right away, and then take the rest of the tube where you want to go with it....

Hi Tom-dredged this up researching.  What arrangement would you recommend for someone using a one-way valve instead of a duckbill?  Breather elbow to standpipe, valve at the high point, then back to the rear of the bike?  Or the valve further to the rear of the bike?

Thanks-

[ace.cafe]

Theory states that the closer the one-way valve is to the crankcase, the better it would function.
However, if oil gets burped thru the valve from being very close to the engine, and then there is a standpipe arrangement after it, then the oil can't get back to the engine.
So, I'd say to split the difference, and route the hose up high as a standpipe right behind the engine, and then put the one-way valve up there, and then lead the exit out the back of the bike or wherever you want to. Or you could put the one way valve at the catch can, like the factory does with the duckbill.

Sometimes a general compromise of things works out most conveniently. You don't always have to follow ideal theory in every application, because not all applications lend themselves to ideal theory.

[AgentX]

Thanks.  And I will definitely have to make a compromise, especially lacking a full rear fender on my bike.  Biggest issue is to avoid putting oil mist where it shouldn't be, really.  Appreciate the insight and will see what I can do.